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    Default Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Starcraft 2 co-op is my jam, the game I continually return to in order to unwind after a long day of work. I generally play Brutal+ with a variety of heroes, random map/ally/mutators, which shakes up the formula by adding many different combinations.

    SC2 recently celebrated its 10th anniversary with a new major patch, which added some major changes to many aspects of the game, including the Co-op mode. Specifically it added Prestige Talents - these let you reset a commander's 15-level progress back to 1 so you can level them all over again, but in exchange for doing so you unlock unique commander-specific affixes you can apply directly to that character, drastically changing up the way they play in a double-edged sword sort of way. For example, Zagara has a prestige called "Scourge Queen" which increases her maximum supply and gives you extra zerglings, banelings and scourge for every egg she hatches, letting you basically cover the screen in even more of these units than regular Zagara has access to - but in exchange, you give her up as a hero unit, which can hurt your early game considerably especially vs. an air composition.

    Every commander got three prestige talents that change up their playstyle in different ways, and of course you can always revert your commander to their standard playstyle if you wish.

    As the last SC2 co-op thread is past the necromancy cutoff I thought I'd start this one. Anyone else playing, and if so which prestige is your favorite so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Starcraft 2 co-op is my jam, the game I continually return to in order to unwind after a long day of work. I generally play Brutal+ with a variety of heroes, random map/ally/mutators, which shakes up the formula by adding many different combinations.

    SC2 recently celebrated its 10th anniversary with a new major patch, which added some major changes to many aspects of the game, including the Co-op mode. Specifically it added Prestige Talents - these let you reset a commander's 15-level progress back to 1 so you can level them all over again, but in exchange for doing so you unlock unique commander-specific affixes you can apply directly to that character, drastically changing up the way they play in a double-edged sword sort of way. For example, Zagara has a prestige called "Scourge Queen" which increases her maximum supply and gives you extra zerglings, banelings and scourge for every egg she hatches, letting you basically cover the screen in even more of these units than regular Zagara has access to - but in exchange, you give her up as a hero unit, which can hurt your early game considerably especially vs. an air composition.

    Every commander got three prestige talents that change up their playstyle in different ways, and of course you can always revert your commander to their standard playstyle if you wish.

    As the last SC2 co-op thread is past the necromancy cutoff I thought I'd start this one. Anyone else playing, and if so which prestige is your favorite so far?
    I haven't gotten a chance to try it yet, but the update looks great. Custom campaign stuff all seems good, hoping coop campaigns are going to be a thing.

    Toxic Tyrant looks prosperously good. So good I imagine it takes a nerf at some point. Dehaka's are all solid, I like the summon boosting one most followed by twin-dehaka.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2020-07-30 at 03:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Toxic Tyrant is indeed crazy good. You give up nuclear annihilation but that was honestly a Win More ability most of the time anyway.

    I'm actually not a big fan of Twin Dehaka, though I haven't tried him since the PTR so maybe some of the issues I'm about to note have been fixed. They track essence separately, which not only means you can end up with one consuming all the essence and getting high level while the other remains small and weak if you're not careful (this snowballs due to the fact that the high level one gets a bigger and fatter hitbox, meaning that one vacuums up even more essence - and keep in mind, they still both die if any one of them dies) - but it also means you have to level them up/assign their points separately, and their abilities are separate as well. It basically doubles the amount of micro you have to do, but you get less than double the benefit out of doing so.

    One of the most terrifying ones has been Lone Wolf Tychus; You can solo most Brutal 0s not only building no other units, but without even needing much if any help from your ally. Zeratul's Mass Super Cloak is also insanely good.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Toxic Tyrant is indeed crazy good. You give up nuclear annihilation but that was honestly a Win More ability most of the time anyway.

    I'm actually not a big fan of Twin Dehaka, though I haven't tried him since the PTR so maybe some of the issues I'm about to note have been fixed. They track essence separately, which not only means you can end up with one consuming all the essence and getting high level while the other remains small and weak if you're not careful (this snowballs due to the fact that the high level one gets a bigger and fatter hitbox, meaning that one vacuums up even more essence - and keep in mind, they still both die if any one of them dies) - but it also means you have to level them up/assign their points separately, and their abilities are separate as well. It basically doubles the amount of micro you have to do, but you get less than double the benefit out of doing so.

    One of the most terrifying ones has been Lone Wolf Tychus; You can solo most Brutal 0s not only building no other units, but without even needing much if any help from your ally. Zeratul's Mass Super Cloak is also insanely good.
    I noticed Lone Wolf and figured it was either broken due to the boost or terrible due to massive increase in micro.

    The odin one seems like a decent boost but not game changing.

    Hmmm, how is summon boosting Dehaka? The hive lords were already incredibly strong.

    Mengsk's nukes were extremely win-more. It meant I had already unleashed the zerg and gotten back to max devotion without needing more pop cap. This is altogether an upgrade.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I noticed Lone Wolf and figured it was either broken due to the boost or terrible due to massive increase in micro.
    If anything it's less micro You can do whole missions with just Tychus, it's bonkers. The medivacs provide plenty of healing for him if he needs it, and even if your ally doesn't have detection yet, he can either ignore the cloaked units trying to hit him until they do, or just absently chuck a grenade and kill them anyway. Since his ultimate wouldn't be doing anything with him by himself anyway, there's basically no downside.

    Even if you do want more than one unit, the bonuses only fall off if they get within sight radius of each other, which is a lot closer than you might think (i.e. they can be on the same screen even). What I typically do is have Tychus in the field, Sirius or Nux back home if I expect attack waves to hit the base, and maybe a third one out too if there's a second objective for some reason. Cradle of Death is one of the few maps where I might use three because Tychus can push towards the main objective while Nux goes after the bonus and Sirius defends the homestead etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The odin one seems like a decent boost but not game changing.
    It's his weakest one for sure. If I'm pushing into an enemy base or stopping a wave, I'd much rather have the Big Red Button. But it's not bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Hmmm, how is summon boosting Dehaka? The hive lords were already incredibly strong.
    It's my personal favorite one for him as it makes him much better at defense. Reduced cooldowns and staying power on Glevig and Murvar are amazing. Dakrun is meh but a disposable base pusher is never a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Haven't gotten around to levelling my prestiges but I'm probably going to try the Raynor, Artanis and Karax ones first for funsies (Raynor ones look solid across the board and open a lot of playstyles for an already engaging, deep commander, Artanis' warp mastery, I am told, stacks with the benefit of Nexus Legate, and I hear funny things about Architect of War supposedly working with ESOs and other commanders' static defenses).

    Most overrated so far is probably Abathur's infinite Ultimate Infestations simply because you can already win most missions with just the 6 UIs and slowing down the tempo on getting your first Brutalisk out can be brutal even with perfect biomass farming. I guess I am also disappointed with Swann masteries overall as I like playing Swann.
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Note that there is a free announcer (White-Ra, Ukranian pro player) if you log in during the event. His lines are hilarious (both because of his deadpan delivery and *very* thick accent) so I highly recommend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Haven't gotten around to levelling my prestiges but I'm probably going to try the Raynor, Artanis and Karax ones first for funsies (Raynor ones look solid across the board and open a lot of playstyles for an already engaging, deep commander, Artanis' warp mastery, I am told, stacks with the benefit of Nexus Legate, and I hear funny things about Architect of War supposedly working with ESOs and other commanders' static defenses).

    Most overrated so far is probably Abathur's infinite Ultimate Infestations simply because you can already win most missions with just the 6 UIs and slowing down the tempo on getting your first Brutalisk out can be brutal even with perfect biomass farming. I guess I am also disappointed with Swann masteries overall as I like playing Swann.
    Yeah, Raynor is definitely going to be my third - I knocked out Tychus first and am working on Karax second. Between us, my bf and I got to play nearly all of them in some capacity on the PTR before it went live, so I have a pretty good idea of the ones I want to target. Vorazun and Zeratul have some rather insane ones.

    Agreed on Infinite Abathur, it's a textbook example of Win-More (with a side of making you weaker in early game as stated) - though I could see it working in a ground-only comp (Swarm Hosts + Queens + Roaches in Dead of Night, say) since by skipping air you're both saving gas and not wasting biomass. It's not like those leviathans were particularly useful against hordes of zombies anyway.

    For Swann, I didn't get to try Grease Monkey but I'm pretty sure the "double effectiveness" means his turrets now heal themselves to full. It also doubles the range, armor, and attack speed buffs they get from research. I can't see that being anything but OP on defense. I think Payload Director will make tank comps even more viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    I've been spreading my play around since I get bored playing the same commander for 15 levels. I'm currently at Zagara 12, Abathur 9, Nova 10, Mengsk 5 (all in P1 still).

    Zagara P1 is powerful once you hit level 7, but not very interesting. Zagara was already kind of a one-trick pony: Max out zerglings, banelings, and scourges. Roll over [incoming wave/enemy base/objective/anything else you want dead]. Max out again. Repeat. Now you don't even have to worry about making banelings and scourges most of the time, they just sort of happen, and you don't have Zagara to micro either. You just sit there making zerglings and A-moving. It works, don't get me wrong--it works like gangbusters--but it's very repetitive.

    Very interested in Zagara P2 and P3 though, they look cool. Especially P3, I think I'm going to really like that one when I get to it.

    Abathur P1 is okay so far, nothing special or all that different from regular Abathur. He struggles even more in the early game since you can't rush out a brutalisk; on the other hand, 100% biomass recovery means you can make roaches, use them to soak early waves, then kill them and transfer the biomass to better units later. I'm interested to see what P2 is like. I doubt I'll even bother with P3, I can't imagine wanting to play that one.

    Nova P3 looks right up my alley. I hardly ever use assault mode anyway, and "sneak into enemy base and nuke everything" is exactly what I want to do with Nova always. Sadly, to get to P3 I have to go through P1 and P2 first. P1's not bad, but again, it's kind of repetitive since you basically only have marauders, marines, and ghosts. P2 looks extremely meh. I rarely feel like have mobility problems with Nova, I don't really need more teleporting.

    Mengsk is the one I'm happiest with overall. He was already one of my favorite commanders, and all three of his prestiges look awesome. I can't wait to try out Contaminated Strike once he gets the fear effect.
    Last edited by Dausuul; Yesterday at 10:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    very nicer sir

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    Default Re: Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    I've been spreading my play around since I get bored playing the same commander for 15 levels. I'm currently at Zagara 12, Abathur 9, Nova 10, Mengsk 5 (all in P1 still).

    Zagara P1 is powerful once you hit level 7, but not very interesting. Zagara was already kind of a one-trick pony: Max out zerglings, banelings, and scourges. Roll over [incoming wave/enemy base/objective/anything else you want dead]. Max out again. Repeat. Now you don't even have to worry about making banelings and scourges most of the time, they just sort of happen, and you don't have Zagara to micro either. You just sit there making zerglings and A-moving. It works, don't get me wrong--it works like gangbusters--but it's very repetitive.

    Very interested in Zagara P2 and P3 though, they look cool. Especially P3, I think I'm going to really like that one when I get to it.
    See, I love A-Move strategies as I tend to find them relaxing, so I love her P1

    I tried both Zagara P2 and P3 on the PTR and they were pretty good too. Her P1 is stronger than her P2 overall but there's something to be said for the novelty of an army you don't have to replace constantly. And Her P3 is crazy good once you can upgrade her and she has all her summons. Infested Drop + Deep Tunnel is a pretty nasty way of deleting something across the map, handy for missions where you need to deal with aggression in a hurry like Lock & Load or Cradle. Her P3 also gives her a new glowy model which is really cool to look at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    Abathur P1 is okay so far, nothing special or all that different from regular Abathur. He struggles even more in the early game since you can't rush out a brutalisk; on the other hand, 100% biomass recovery means you can make roaches, use them to soak early waves, then kill them and transfer the biomass to better units later. I'm interested to see what P2 is like. I doubt I'll even bother with P3, I can't imagine wanting to play that one.
    Abathur P2 is best on defense missions. It seems like it would be useful vs. the long-range mutator or the "split damage dealt among nearby attackers" mutator.
    Abathur P3 is win-more as mentioned, but for sheer spectacle its hard to match. I could see it being useful on a really long mutator with an extended lategame, provided your ally is willing to help you get there due to your higher biomass requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    Nova P3 looks right up my alley. I hardly ever use assault mode anyway, and "sneak into enemy base and nuke everything" is exactly what I want to do with Nova always. Sadly, to get to P3 I have to go through P1 and P2 first. P1's not bad, but again, it's kind of repetitive since you basically only have marauders, marines, and ghosts. P2 looks extremely meh. I rarely feel like have mobility problems with Nova, I don't really need more teleporting.
    Agree that Nova's P2 is garbage. I skipped it completely. I really hope they swap that one out entirely - replacing it either with something that makes her more mech-focused, or that replaces her hero unit in favor of buffing her army and especially her Ravens (similar to Zagara or Fenix P1) would be ideal.

    I'm working on leveling her P3 as we speak. Yes, it comes into its own at max level by letting you drop nukes all over the place, but even before that the huge radius on her explosive drone is extremely nice - particularly on maps where the enemy tends to clump around something you want destroyed, like Rifts to Korhal or Malwarfare.

    Also, Raynor P1 is pretty much the only way I'm ever doing bio Raynor ever again. It's phenomenal - if you ever found Raynor annoying, or if you ever end up on a mutator where getting an expansion is pointless, give that one a try, you won't be disappointed. 4-6 barracks are all you need to deal with nearly any mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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