Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

[deuterio12]

Catching 400-odd pokemon doesn't seem as daunting as catching close to 900 of these. Pokémon at its heart is a collection game, and I hate that you have to go through several generations to get all of the other ones.

Yeah, "gotta catch them all" was cute when there were only 150 mons, but as the number was approaching 1000, fewer and fewer people would be able to realistically 100% complete the game, and for any new players joining the franchise it would be disheartening being told "You want to 100% this game? Then you need to play a dozen of the older titles lol".

[SaintRidley]

Heads up to sword/shield players, some mystery gift codes:

K0UN1NMASC0T: Fast Ball, Moon Ball, Level Ball
1YAHAYA: Heavy Ball, Lure Ball, Beast Ball
0KUGAFUKA1B0RU: Love Ball, Friend Ball, Dream Ball

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, "gotta catch them all" was cute when there were only 150 mons, but as the number was approaching 1000, fewer and fewer people would be able to realistically 100% complete the game, and for any new players joining the franchise it would be disheartening being told "You want to 100% this game? Then you need to play a dozen of the older titles lol".

New generations have actually made it easier, though. Everything that existed as of X and Y can be gotten with just those two plus Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, except a few event-only things. Two games plus trades with a friend for the few version-exclusives (mostly legends) that are only in one of the four, and you've got everything and can transfer it up from there; there's no need to go more than two generations back from the current latest games, nothing older than the 3DS. I would expect that, if there's another game in a few generations that does support a full dex, they'll similarly arrange things so you don't need to go too far back from whenever that is.

I haven't gone through to figure out whether you could avoid going even that far back in more recent generations, if perhaps everything is available in newer games. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon get you the legendaries, but I don't know about the rest. You can also transfer up from the Gen I and Gen II 3DS-VC games, which is more games-played but the games are cheaper (and possibly shorter?).

[deuterio12]

New generations have actually made it easier, though. Everything that existed as of X and Y can be gotten with just those two plus Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, except a few event-only things. Two games plus trades with a friend for the few version-exclusives (mostly legends) that are only in one of the four, and you've got everything and can transfer it up from there; there's no need to go more than two generations back from the current latest games, nothing older than the 3DS. I would expect that, if there's another game in a few generations that does support a full dex, they'll similarly arrange things so you don't need to go too far back from whenever that is.

I haven't gone through to figure out whether you could avoid going even that far back in more recent generations, if perhaps everything is available in newer games. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon get you the legendaries, but I don't know about the rest. You can also transfer up from the Gen I and Gen II 3DS-VC games, which is more games-played but the games are cheaper (and possibly shorter?).

Thing is, you're still getting those Pokémons 1 by 1. It's not easier at all if you have to capture/train/obscure evolution 4 digits worth of Pokémon from scratch, even if it's from "just" half a dozen games instead of a full dozen.

Not to mention saying "lol get a 3DS old console" isn't exactly what a new kid starting on the Switch wants to hear.

[OracleofWuffing]

Yeah, they really need to create some sort of service that would let us transfer multiple pokemon from a previous generation into a new generation, as well as introduce the ability to exchange pokemon with other people online.

Yes, I am making a facetious statement on the internet.

Something I kinda wonder with regard to Charzard's... Internal Popularity? Any better term than that? ...Is that Charizard is Atsuko Nishida's favorite pokemon, and she's kinda part of the Original Game Freaks and Pokemon team, to the point of being the person what designed Pikachu initially. I mean, even if she's not calling the shots of what to add and where, I'd go out on a limb and say other people on the team would like to try to surprise a person that's that established in the company.

[Qwertystop]

Thing is, you're still getting those Pokémons 1 by 1. It's not easier at all if you have to capture/train/obscure evolution 4 digits worth of Pokémon from scratch, even if it's from "just" half a dozen games instead of a full dozen.

Not to mention saying "lol get a 3DS old console" isn't exactly what a new kid starting on the Switch wants to hear.

It's easier than it would be if something still had to be transferred up from whichever game was the oldest not to get a remake yet. Catching one more mon in a game you've already got and beat is a lot easier than if, say, FR/LG were the only place you could get Growlithe. And it indicates that they're okay with consolidating all the mons in a small number of games – it's stretched out again because we've had two new generations and a transfer to a new system, but I bet that within this generation or the next, there'll be enough availability to let you get everything without any hardware older than the Switch, and possibly some features like what ORAS had to make hunting down a specific species much easier (overworld-visible wilds in SwSh helps there also).

At least, assuming they don't ditch a chunk of the old roster entirely.

[deuterio12]

It's easier than it would be if something still had to be transferred up from whichever game was the oldest not to get a remake yet. Catching one more mon in a game you've already got and beat is a lot easier than if, say, FR/LG were the only place you could get Growlithe.

Emphasis mine. New kids joining the franchise don't already have the old games, let alone have beaten them. That just promotes an elitist culture where said elite would only get smaller and smaller if the total number of Pokémon in each game keeps going up.

[Saambell]

Emphasis mine. New kids joining the franchise don't already have the old games, let alone have beaten them. That just promotes an elitist culture where said elite would only get smaller and smaller if the total number of Pokémon in each game keeps going up.

And that's the real thing about Main Line Pokemon: the division between supporting long term players, and making it easy for brand new people to join. Or more particularly, trying to appease older 20-30 year old fans, while also trying to attract and entertain the new batch of 10 year old kids. The longer Pokemon goes on, the more older fans exist, spread through many ages, with many different start points. A brand new 10 year old fan has very different requirements to entertain then a 15 year old fan who started with gen 6 or gen 5, or a 20 year old fan who started with gen 5 or gen 4, or a 25 year old fan who started in gen 3 or gen 2, or a 30 year old fan who started in gen 1. Every one of those groups of fans like different things about Pokemon, and most also think the golden age with the best games are entirely different from the other group's best game. There is almost no way you can please every single one of those groups.

Its pretty clear overall most of their decisions lean to appealing to the 10 year old, and 25-30 range. The first to make sure the fan base is constantly growing, and the second as they have been with the series the longest, and thus most committed to staying with it. The appeal of the adults is targeting them also has the side effect of drawing their potential kids in, making it a bonding experience for the family. This leaves the 15-25 range under appreciated which can be seen with most media glossing over gens 3-5. Funnily enough, this is also the age most of a mobile game's, especially a nostalgia mobile game, target demographic is. Hence the popularity of GO and Masters, as most people those ages have a phone, have a bit of income, but not that many life costs. Noticeable with Masters showcasing of a lot of Gen 4 and Gen 5 characters, who are the primary ones the age range of 15-25 are most aware of.

A lot of the gen 1 pandering is only pandering to the long term fans who have seen them all before. But to a new kid, they might have had a toy or other thing of them, and expect to see the game version of things they connect with Pokemon. Yes, this is due to TPCI filling the media with a chosen few, but its also a case of being some of the longest standing and most recognizable designs. Its like seeing a Fallout game without a Vault Suit, or a Gundam without a V Fin, or a Dragonball Z game without energy beams. So a Pokemon game has the expectation to contain the things that are most visible in its media. Its also most annoying I notice to people within that 15-25 range mentioned before, as they mostly missed the initial launch so lack most of the nostalgia for said older Pokemon.

Every Pokemon game has this divide of trying to draw back the older fans, yet also draw in new fans. There will always be compromises done for the sake of this, and simplifying the PokeDex for the sake of letting people without access to older games actually be able to complete it was a very understandable step. Especially when said older games are on an entirely different expensive system. In this regard, I feel Gen 7 handled the PokeDex the best, only requiring the Pokemon find able in game to complete it yet also allowing all old Pokemon to exist in said games. Gen 6 was the worst, requiring you find/breed/evolve near 700 Pokemon. And with that number, its not at all surprising that most players would assume that theres no way only 4 games could hold that many. Generation 3 was arguably worse, requiring 6 games, on two systems, one of which being a home console, to complete. It also did not allow transferring from old games, due to massively reworking the entire stat system. And again, you notice most of those put out by the Gen 8 cuts are those in the 15-25 range who were with the series long enough to have played through the large era of transferability, but aren't old enough to remember the first Transfer Cuts, which as noted, were slowly rereleased to the players by way of multiple full price games, over 2 consoles, and several years. Imagine the mess that would happen if said thing was done nowadays. Yes, there is very much the worry that we could be on track to said events with the next round of games, and they will very rightly deserve much of the backlash should they be foolish enough to try said actions, but I doubt it would end up being as ridiculous as the events of Gen 3. Locking Mew behind a pay wall is and will always be dumb though.

Gen 8 combined this need to streamline the Pokedex with the "side" need to support their VGC system, which as a core part of the rules only allows Pokemon from current game to be used in said format. Already most Pokemon mechanics nowadays are being more and more focused on VGC, yet still oddly under represented in story. Which again is a sign of the division in their market. For kids, singles is the most straight forward and understandable system, hence it being used for in game. But VGC being 4v4 Doubles, is clearly tailored to in Pokemon's moves and abilities. Notice how there was a initial rush of doubles moves in Gen 3, when it was introduced, then as time went on, more and more moves and abilities were introduced, being vastly more common in generation 6 and later games, around when VGC really gained momentum. Also notice how many new abilities in Gen 8 focused on negating Attack Drop effects, and how few Intimidate Pokemon got through while ones with ways around Intimidate got in. This was due to Intimidate running rampant over VGC 2018. Incenaroar was used on 90% of all teams in said format. That's totally bonkers, and the new abilities and selected Pokemon are clearly a response to said events.

All in all, Pokemon is being stretched in many directions, trying to appeal to many highly various fan bases, and there will always be cuts on one end to make another end or two work better.

[deuterio12]

All in all, Pokemon is being stretched in many directions, trying to appeal to many highly various fan bases, and there will always be cuts on one end to make another end or two work better.

Good point. The whole "transfer Pokémon from older games" ended up being quite the double-edged blade.

Although it should be pointed out it's not even really one of Pokémon's main cause to fame, since it was't even available at all in the first games that were hugely popular (them being the first so no older games to transfer from).

Even Ash in the anime hardly uses his old mons (and he also kinda sucks at catching them all, don't think he's even caught 100 different ones yet despite being in every game region and more). Trading is pretty rare too.

[tonberrian]

Good point. The whole "transfer Pokémon from older games" ended up being quite the double-edged blade.

Although it should be pointed out it's not even really one of Pokémon's main cause to fame, since it was't even available at all in the first games that were hugely popular (them being the first so no older games to transfer from).

Even Ash in the anime hardly uses his old mons (and he also kinda sucks at catching them all, don't think he's even caught 100 different ones yet despite being in every game region and more). Trading is pretty rare too.

With all the evolutions he's had he's got to be over 100 different.

[Avaris]

With all the evolutions he's had he's got to be over 100 different.

Surprisingly not quite! According to Bulbapedia:

Ash currently has ownership of 71 Pokémon, including all 30 of his Tauros. Including pre-evolutions, traded, released, and given away Pokémon (and not including the additional Tauros), in total, Ash has currently officially owned a total of 90 different Pokémon species.

[deuterio12]

it's not that surprising when you consider Ash's attitude towards catching Pokémon:

(me when meeting super legendary):"Such a majestic creature, it shall be mine! Get in the Pokéball!"

(Ash Ketchum when meeting super legendary): "Such a majestic creature, it must remain free! I'll let it go away whitout even trying to capture it!"

So yeaaahhh, Ash Ketchum is a lot more interested in just being fast friends with 90% of the mons he finds instead of actually completing his collection. In Gen I he made some effort now and then (like those 30 Tauros, also he fought a Krabby by himself), but over the years it's been more about getting along Pokémon than capturing them.

Wonder just how many players do it like Ash Ketchum and only bother to catch a few of the wild mons they find (actually isn't that one of the rules for Nuzlocke?)

[Kareeah_Indaga]

(Ash Ketchum when meeting super legendary): "Such a majestic creature, it must remain free! I'll let it go away whitout even trying to capture it!"

But considering how much havoc was caused by messing with some of those super legendaries...can you blame him? Also he seems to have an attachment to doing everything the hard way; catching a god-monster and having it steamroll everything in his path probably doesn't appeal.

[deuterio12]

But considering how much havoc was caused by messing with some of those super legendaries...can you blame him?

Yes? If Ash lets them roam free, it's just a matter of time until some other crazy person gets their trail and starts messing with them.

Also he seems to have an attachment to doing everything the hard way; catching a god-monster and having it steamroll everything in his path probably doesn't appeal.

No need to actually use the captured legendary Pokémon, just let them stay safely in the box.

Although Ash's Pikachu should by all means be lv.100 by now, a veteran of countless battles that's fought if not defeated legendaries and still manages to lose to trainers who just who got their first starter, so I could totally see Ash throwing out Mewtwo only to get roflstomped.

[DeTess]

Wonder just how many players do it like Ash Ketchum and only bother to catch a few of the wild mons they find (actually isn't that one of the rules for Nuzlocke?)

I generally play like that when I'm not doing a first playthrough of a game. On a first playthrough I catch more, but on later playthroughs I generally only catch those I'm interested in keeping around in my team. It generally doesn't fell right to catch pokemon, but then just let them sit around in my bank. It's for this reason that I hope that at one point they'll introduce a 'catch-and-release' ball, which only scans the pokemon to get the dex entry complete, and then lets it go again.

[Saambell]

Same. First run I catch everything I can, filling out my box. However this mostly tapers away as I reach mid game, and I can see the end in sight and I just try to blitz the rest of the way. Means early on I have a lot of caught mons and everything is overleveled. But as a result of the blitz, I almost never have late game mons caught and I'm often underleveled for much of the end game, including E4 and Champ fights.

In later runs of games I catch much fewer, as I have usually picked out a team before hand, or at least had some idea of the mons I want to use. Any time I catch more then just the selected mons, there comes a massive temptation to swap around my team by the mid to late game. Which often has very negative effects on my teams power as the new mons lack evs, sometimes levels, and its right around the time I start trying to blitz to an end goal. Being forced to stop and grind for a while at the time you most want to be rushing forward is very rough. And in games with very dumb level scaling, its downright a disaster. To this day, I hate playing Johto, as I hit the Steel/Ice gym and find myself swapping my team as the mons I picked have issues, and with the horrific level scaling and terrible grinding, its a very bad experience. I have seen Kanto in those games maybe twice in about 8 playthroughs and never Red, as, with clockwork, I end up vs Jasmine and hating every moment of it. And the worst part of it is I actually did pick Cyndaquil, but boxed him as most of the time, there's far more interesting mons I want to use. Also the very first battle I ever did with near competitive mons I got horribly swept by a Typhlosion, so there may be some subliminal resentment of the dumb thing.

[DaOldeWolf]

Darn, finding version exclusives in this game is hard. Can someone help me get my hands on an eiscue?

[Manticoran]

I generally play like that when I'm not doing a first playthrough of a game. On a first playthrough I catch more, but on later playthroughs I generally only catch those I'm interested in keeping around in my team. It generally doesn't fell right to catch pokemon, but then just let them sit around in my bank. It's for this reason that I hope that at one point they'll introduce a 'catch-and-release' ball, which only scans the pokemon to get the dex entry complete, and then lets it go again.

Yeah my problem with Pokemon Go was that I felt awful about catching so many Pokemon I didn't intend to use and sending them to the farm to be processed into Pokemon glue, uh, candy.

Catching them all was always something I felt a little odd about.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Ash is not actually a trainer, he functions more like a Pokemon ranger, saving the world on a weekly basis with the help of temporarily befriended Pokémon.

[OracleofWuffing]

I remember boxes being different in the anime. I know that the episode kind of featuring boxes as they are in the game was the Porygon episode, but also like Professor Oak gets to keep and care for all of Ash's pokemon. Like, didn't Bulbasaur almost die because of that arrangement?

Granted, that's only when Ash keeps a pokemon instead of giving it to somewhere... Ash was doing Dexit before it was "cool."

[deuterio12]

Well, Oak is still the Pokémon professor, so I would bet he's only letting Ash's stored Pokémon outs to run tests and collect statistics. Other boxed Pokémon don't seem to be so lucky.

Although in the other hand 99% of trainers don't even seem to have a full set of six mons so they may never PC box any.

Like, Misty's older sisters somehow ran out of healthy Pokémon to fight with after just three challengers.

Ash is not actually a trainer, he functions more like a Pokemon ranger, saving the world on a weekly basis with the help of temporarily befriended Pokémon.

Ash still collects trainer badges and keeps trying his luck at every tournament/league he runs into, and losing every time it's actually a game region.

Kinda the anti-shonen hero, lots of build up and then Ash just fails at the final run.

You're correct that Ash would make a great official Pokémon Ranger so seems like he should seriously reconsider his career choice instead of keep wasting time around in trainer tournaments.

[Saambell]

I mean, if you think of pokemon as smarter then average pets, its very understandable why in lore people would more stick to one or two rather then a full set of 6. Imagine trying to take care of a horse, a pygmy elephant, a jellyfish, a hawk, a t rex, and a weretiger all at the same time. Keeping them fed, exercised, cleaned, and Not Eating Each Other. I know even with a full family of 5, three dogs can be very much a handful. One person, or a family trying to care for a full 6, potentially a set for each person, would be an absolute nightmare. The only reason we are conditioned to see it as simple, and bothersome in that no one else uses 6, is cause its a game. They abstract away all of that for the player, cause playing monster babysitter is not what pokemon wants to be, though that would be a very cool idea for a spin off.

[deuterio12]

I mean, if you think of pokemon as smarter then average pets, its very understandable why in lore people would more stick to one or two rather then a full set of 6. Imagine trying to take care of a horse, a pygmy elephant, a jellyfish, a hawk, a t rex, and a weretiger all at the same time. Keeping them fed, exercised, cleaned, and Not Eating Each Other. I know even with a full family of 5, three dogs can be very much a handful. One person, or a family trying to care for a full 6, potentially a set for each person, would be an absolute nightmare.

That makes quite sense for the average trainer.

Not so much for gym leaders that are supposed to be the cream of the top and have clearly lots of resources at their disposal though. At least the Elite Four is all packing full teams.

Reminds me of Xenoblade Chronicles where you collect Blades instead of Pokémon, and at the start of the game the NPCs even say "get as many Blades as you can, the more the merrier", but then every trainer Driver outside the main party has a single Blade!

The only reason we are conditioned to see it as simple, and bothersome in that no one else uses 6, is cause its a game. They abstract away all of that for the player, cause playing monster babysitter is not what pokemon wants to be, though that would be a very cool idea for a spin off.

There's been some babysitter element since Gold/Silver in terms of the friendship stat. And then of course there's the whole daycare center breeding.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The Go buddy system was improved. Having my Rhydon clumsily waggling around on the map feels a lot more fun than it should, and some of the promised perks are pretty interesting, including new souvenirs from stops and an eventual CP boost after about h
2-3 months of decent buddying.

But the requirement to battle other players to continue the Rocket quests is a pain. The whole point of the Rockets is that you can single player the pvp system.

[LaZodiac]

It's already been made very clear that gym leaders cater their team to the badge level you have. Pearl/Diamond/Platinum makes that explicit with Roark and Fantina, and the Pokemon Master ova staring Red made it canon as well.

[deuterio12]

It's already been made very clear that gym leaders cater their team to the badge level you have. Pearl/Diamond/Platinum makes that explicit with Roark and Fantina, and the Pokemon Master ova staring Red made it canon as well.

Ova Giovanni: "Ah, you're that kid who keeps messing up my criminal plans, my nemesis, also you already have 7 badges! Time to get serious, I shall use a whole TWO Pokémon, even less than my game version! And the second of my ultimate team is just the evolution of my first!"

And then ova Giovanni disbanded Team Rocket officially, which would directly derail the plot of later games where Team Rocket's still around, so claiming the ova canon is really questionable at best.

The Pokémon Adventure manga does support the "Gym leaders have multiple teams", with Misty having a Gyarados the first time Ash Red meets her and she's got so many extra Pokémon she later gifts said Gyarados to Red just so he has a sea ride. But the Pokémon Adventures manga is even less cannon that with the Elite Four being eco-terrorrists and stuff.

Still it would be pretty cool a more open-world mainline Pokémon game where you could visit cities in whichever order and Gym leaders would scale accordingly.

[tonberrian]

Ova Giovanni: "Ah, you're that kid who keeps messing up my criminal plans, my nemesis, also you already have 7 badges! Time to get serious, I shall use a whole TWO Pokémon, even less than my game version! And the second of my ultimate team is just the evolution of my first!"

And then ova Giovanni disbanded Team Rocket officially, which would directly derail the plot of later games where Team Rocket's still around, so claiming the ova canon is really questionable at best.

The Pokémon Adventure manga does support the "Gym leaders have multiple teams", with Misty having a Gyarados the first time Ash Red meets her and she's got so many extra Pokémon she later gifts said Gyarados to Red just so he has a sea ride. But the Pokémon Adventures manga is even less cannon that with the Elite Four being eco-terrorrists and stuff.

Still it would be pretty cool a more open-world mainline Pokémon game where you could visit cities in whichever order and Gym leaders would scale accordingly.

SwSh has it canon as well, becuase it doesn't have an Elite 4, just a bracket with you and the gym leaders.

[Saambell]

"Pokemon Origins OVA isnt canon cause Giovanni disbanded Team Rocket but they are in later games". You seriously need to play Gold and Silver then, cause the whole thing is he DID disband Team Rocket. Nearly every NPC who mentions Team Rocket also says "They disbanded 3 years ago". The plot with them is a few of the old admins try to restart the group and call out to Giovanni to come back. And the Celebi event lets you time travel to meet him and beat him minutes before the radio broadcast. Which given its in a cave high on a cliff and there's an audible splash after he leaves, he jumped before the radio played the message.

And in Ultra Sun and Moon, all the returning villains in the post game are stated to be from alternative worlds where they won. So yes, the OVA is the closest we got to canon in terms of filling out the world.

[Spore]

Ova Giovanni: "Ah, you're that kid who keeps messing up my criminal plans, my nemesis, also you already have 7 badges! Time to get serious, I shall use a whole TWO Pokémon, even less than my game version! And the second of my ultimate team is just the evolution of my first!"

If you are talking about the guy whose pet cat you beat up with a flaming dragon, a horrific plant-dinosaur hybrid or a big turtle with riot gear water cannons on its back. You are talking about a world where criminals are apparently legally forced to stop being evil after being defeated in a magical pet battle.

Versimillitude is NOT a strength of the games if you do not apply a hefty dose of "head canon" to your games. I imagine Giovanni not being serious with pokemon battling anyhow. He has strong 'mons, but like any rich pet owner, he only has a good part of them around. Even if they could act as bodyguards.

Also consider this. The games are linear so you can't go the D&D route either. "Whoops, you encountered the high level rogue in his basement surrounded by his captains, you take...20d6 sneak damage. Roll constitution saves, thrice: To see if the poison or the daggers kill you." The encounter designer is like: "Whoops, he only has his trusty snobilikat around and whatever pokeballs he did not leave in the care of his goons or arena trainers."

[Emmerlaus]

Hummm... I had a idea:

Maybe in stead of making Pokemon game have so much minigames inside (Like making curry, Pokemon Amie, etc), itw ould be interesting if they brought back their Pokemon Stadium games!

Only fighting, minigames, no story or RPG exploration.

They could then focus on making normal Pokemon games worth their prize tag with better graphics, a VR version, pausing the game to take pictures, likable characters. Maybe even experimenting on what they want to expand like better game gimmick then Dynamax. And MAYBE, lets hope, put more Pokemon in the game? XD

Was thinking that seperate the two materials in different games, it would be be interesting...

=======

I really dont like Pokemon Sword and Shield... Great new Pokemon in looks but most of them are half-baked. Clobbopus line for exemple would have being better being part Water type and having the Suction Cup ability. Intellon should have Camouflage or something to justify its a chameleon.... Whats the point in mking Nickit and its evo having a good special attack if almost all of his movepool being PHYSICAL attacks?!

I think thats the biggest crime in those game, at least for me... Making new Pokemon that look awesome, seem like good art and creation concept... and ruin them by bad execution.