Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

[Bartmanhomer]

I have one question is the moved Counter and Mirror Coat are affected with Seismic Toss and Night Shade?

[Emmerlaus]

I have one question is the moved Counter and Mirror Coat are affected with Seismic Toss and Night Shade?

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w...t_Shade_(move)

[Turalisj]

No, counter/mirror coat don't work vs moves with a set damage

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Plus logic as a minor concern burn and freeze together don't quite work.

The burn condition is having burns/burn wounds, making it harder and painful/damaging to move. It's not being actively on fire. The frozen condition is a cartoonish being frozen solid, maybe in a nice big block of ice. Being hit with a fire attack or other burn causing moves like scald already thaws a frozen mon, so you'd pretty much only be dealing with creatures that got burned first, then frozen, which I can imagine just fine.

But given that competitive pokémon is usually played with clauses like "you can only put one pokémon on the other team to sleep at the same time" I, like you, don't feel like status moves really need the pretty massive power bump they'd get from stacking.

[Squark]

Blegh. The pokemon home GTS is more infested with trolls than ever. It's impossible to simply swap starters- Most offers are either trolls asking for impossible pokemon or people demanding a Poipole for their perfectly ordinary level 1 starter. I managed did manage to get a scorbunny, but that was by trading out a tepig from my living pokedex... And I only realized after that in order to replace it, I'm going to have to go into the Gen VII games and catch an Emboar via dex scan, then breed it in order to replace the tepig.

I really, really wish the Ultra Beasts were classified as lengendaries, and that Game Freak would periodically purge impossible requests.

...

Right, get that rant off my chest.

So, I'm 95% of the way through Pokemon let's go, but I'd like to evolve my trade evolutions to finish the Pokedex (also, my team has a haunter and a machoke on it, and the haunter in particular is starting to struggle). Is anyone able to hop online and help evolve them? I'm also trying to fill out the last few exclusives in my Pokedex- sadly, Pokemon Home's GTS doesn't differentiate between formes, so I can't just swap my Alolan Meowth and Alolan Vulpix for an Alolan Sandshrew and Alolan Grimer- If anyone'd be wiling to make that trade, it'd be greatly appreciated!

[OracleofWuffing]

But given that competitive pokémon is usually played with clauses like "you can only put one pokémon on the other team to sleep at the same time" I, like you, don't feel like status moves really need the pretty massive power bump they'd get from stacking.

That's a divergence between Smogon and the official Video Game Championships, VGC/Play! Pokemon hasn't had Sleep Clause since... Technically 2006 (Pokemon Battle Revolution enforced it, but major battles were done on Diamond/Pearl/Platinum), but officially 2011.

[Aotrs Commander]

Blegh. The pokemon home GTS is more infested with trolls than ever. It's impossible to simply swap starters- Most offers are either trolls asking for impossible pokemon or people demanding a Poipole for their perfectly ordinary level 1 starter. I managed did manage to get a scorbunny, but that was by trading out a tepig from my living pokedex... And I only realized after that in order to replace it, I'm going to have to go into the Gen VII games and catch an Emboar via dex scan, then breed it in order to replace the tepig.

Have they actually turned off the Sun/Moon et al trading yet? If not, maybe someone on the thread might be able to trade you one. (I do not believe I have any to hand myself - I mean, if you Snivys, I'm your Lich, I collated katrillions breeding my one for Moon.)



Has there been any word on how long they plan to keep Bank going, by-the-by? I mean, a sensbile company would you give you advanced warning, but Nintendo can be very not-sensible at times. It would be... Inconvenianct to lose it until at LEAST I've finally breed my last Pokémon team for Omega Ruby (which only tends to happen during waiting down the club before rolpleaying - so that's not been happening lately - and the RNG was being the RNG about letting me have a decent ducklett. I THINK I finally moved on to shellos, but I haven't fired my 3DS up in weeks.)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Roughly one thread ago I made a prediction for the master league meta that turned out completely wrong:

Okay, I figure I've got the Go master league meta mostly figured out. That's the PvP setting with no CP restrictions.

Defensive Pokémon tend to do best overall, that's just Pokémon Go. There's several strong defenders with high CP's: Tyranitar, Groudon, Rhyperior, or Aggron in a pinch.

All of those are weak to water. They're all weak to grass as well (well, Aggron is neutral to grass), but since water types tend to be stonger, you'll typically see a Kyogre, Gyarados or Vaporeon in the second slot. Gyarados is a bit of a risk being weak to rock type attacks, but with good shield use it usually does the job.

Since your opponent will be bringing a water type, you can't use the third spot to double down with an extra strong defender, so we've got a wildcard. Mewtwo is too attack focused and gets chewed up by any good opponent, so the wildward will often end up being one of the strong dragon types. Dragonite, Salamence or another legendary. This wild card should be able to take out the water type, forming a neat little triangle, since the strong defender will in a type neutral matchup defeat this guy.

So our basic team is Tyranitar (or Groudon), Vaporeon (or Kyogre or Gyarados), Dragonite (or Salamence, or like a dozen other options because that's what a wildcard is). If you get the matchups right, you beat the other team. If he goes for just one or two of these categories, like two dragons and a Tyranitar, you've got all the counters you need. If the other guy uses completely completely different Pokémon, he loses because you're using pretty much the strongest options available.

From here on in all the changes you make are to help you get the matchups right. This often means having mon that can take on their equal on the other team. Groudon and Rhyperior for instance, being ground types, are strong vs Tyranitar. Use one of those and if you get to that matchup, he will be forced to switch out to his water type. You go for your dragon, he can't switch again, you get preferable matchups from there on in. Mamoswine as an ice type has favorible matchups against all the previously named strong defenders, and the ice typing also helps it against the dragon, so it doesn't matter that it does not have as much raw power as the other options. Except if the opponent uses a variation of their own, using Metagross as their strong defender (while you loaded up on ice attacks for Mamoswine because those are stronger), or using Machamp or Giratina as their wildcard/"dragon".

Making the right variations and putting the right mon in the right place make all the difference, but in general I think most of the successful master league teams will roughly follow this formula. Strong defender (usually ground or rock typed), counter (usually water typed), wildcard (often dragon typed, but out of the three the least predictable component).

The other two leagues are a lot more complex. The strong defensive options are a lot more spread out over the types, and the complexity snowballs from there. I also give no guarantees about what defense Deoxys will do to any of the leagues.

Also, this analysis was based on maybe a handful of matches. It might be completely wrong, I just like feeling clever.

But, this prediction is getting another shot, with the upcoming premier league, which will have no cp limit but bans all legendary and mythical pokémon, making it a good format for a high level solo player.

So I'm reviving my prediction: standard teams will consist of a big guy with at least one rock or ice attack (Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, maybe even Aggron), a dragon (dragonite, salamence) and a water or potentially a grass type (Swampert, Vaporeon maybe, Venusaur?, Gyarados? (Although its weakness to rock makes this kind of an odd choice, but it sort of half fits the dragon mold as well, so we might see it on teams that want to include something else entirely in the third slot.))

Sure, there are several contenders that don't fit the mold and could totally wreck it. Togekiss is a dragonslayer that because of its flying typing is weak to the other rock and ice type dragonslayers but can instead do much better against the water types and especially any grass types. Metagross exists entirely outside of this proposed triangle, although the option can be covered for by having a ground or fighting type attack on either the big guy or the water type. Magnezone is a big guy alternative that like metagross takes a ground or fighting attack to counter and destroys any water types sent after it, although grass types still work. Snorlax with Counter is also a bit of a tough cookie, although in the end it fits in the water type category quite well, being able to wreck rock and ice types but being at a disadvantage vs flying dragons. And Garchomp is a powerful pseudolegendary dragon that eats rock types for a living, but reinforces the place of water (and grass) types.

Am I still wrong this time? Probably. But never let the odds stop you. I'm kind of curious how this will turn out. I'll be waiting for a bit to build a serious team, I'm still trying to gather enough candies to get my master league team fully functioning.

[Rater202]

Hi. I don't have time to read this whole thread, but...

Have the Sword and shield Fossil Pokemon been discussed yet? I'll be honest, I'm hoping that DLC that they're getting in-lieu of a third game comes with evolution for them.

Not out of any game mechanics reason, just so that they might develop into forms that aren't so horrifically mismatched becuase those poor babies must be suffering something fierce.

I am also terrified of the possibility of someone who isn't so careless doing that on purpose with fossils that fit together better to make some kind of monstrosity. People have evngieered Pokemon as weapons before, it's only a matter of time if fusing fossils like that is possible.

[MCerberus]

Are you trying to say that my Aerodactyl with wings covered in scythes is some sort of abomination just because it's designed to reap souls like wheat?

[Lord Raziere]

Hi. I don't have time to read this whole thread, but...

Have the Sword and shield Fossil Pokemon been discussed yet? I'll be honest, I'm hoping that DLC that they're getting in-lieu of a third game comes with evolution for them.

Not out of any game mechanics reason, just so that they might develop into forms that aren't so horrifically mismatched becuase those poor babies must be suffering something fierce.

I am also terrified of the possibility of someone who isn't so careless doing that on purpose with fossils that fit together better to make some kind of monstrosity. People have evngieered Pokemon as weapons before, it's only a matter of time if fusing fossils like that is possible.

I mean Genesect and Mewtwo are already a thing. I think in both cases it was Team Rocket that did it, but they're both modified clones of some prehistoric pokemon for the purpose of being a weapon even if it isn't exactly what your terrified about. oh and, Silvally is basically nothing but pokemon seemingly spliced together to try and make god/Arceus and failed.

so....technically already happened, entire generations before you ever thought of it. maybe not in the exact manner your describing in more functional forms, but yeah. these fossil pokemon? are just a victorian archaeology joke.

[Rater202]

Are you trying to say that my Aerodactyl with wings covered in scythes is some sort of abomination just because it's designed to reap souls like wheat?

I was referring specifically to these four port bastards

Spoiler: Images from Bulbapedia

Show

Dracozolt seems to be the only one that isn't described as constantly suffering just by living and it's spelled out that these patchwork creations can't occur in nature or survive in the wild. Half the Pokedex entries are descriptions of how bad they're suffering and the other half is either Cara Liss covering her ass or just being that oblivious

I hope that these poor babies get evolutions of something that like, fixes the problem with their incomparable bodies.

@Raz. Yes, I'm aware that this ha happened. I noted that Pokemon had been engineered as weapons before. But now that we know that you can mix and match fossils I'm worried that someone will do it on purpose to make a monstrosity.

[Kantaki]

Right. Those things. The one time my char revived one of those crimes against nature and mad science she fainted from sheer terror and woke up a few minutes in the past.
Basically, I was curious why the process required two fossils, saved, gave the lady my dead rocks and after taking one look at the resulting abomination decided I wanted no part in this and restarted from my last save.
Definitely agree that the poor dears need some help.

[Fable Wright]

Right. Those things. The one time my char revived one of those crimes against nature and mad science she fainted from sheer terror and woke up a few minutes in the past.
Basically, I was curious why the process required two fossils, saved, gave the lady my dead rocks and after taking one look at the resulting abomination decided I wanted no part in this and restarted from my last save.
Definitely agree that the poor dears need some help.

*checks Kantaki's signature*


...Wellp. If he's horrified, we're officially at the point where this was a Bad Idea^TM.

[Lord Raziere]

@Raz. Yes, I'm aware that this ha happened. I noted that Pokemon had been engineered as weapons before. But now that we know that you can mix and match fossils I'm worried that someone will do it on purpose to make a monstrosity.

Well it depends:
-will it make a movie plot? then probably yes if the pokemon is powerful enough
-would it make for a memorable pokemon? given how we're talking about these fossil pokemon? yes
-have evil teams done it before? then yes
-between things like Ultra Beasts, Silvally and Eternatus, they're clearly willing to try and go into some terrifying stuff even as they try to make the games lighter, so yes

so there is a lot of reasons why that would happen. the question is, would they do it but try to play it off comedic like the kids game pokemon is without exploring too deeply into it, or will they randomly decide that these pokemon are just a one-off gimmick they'll never repeat ever again like many others, without ever fixing this so that you never see the real functional ones? because thats pretty much the only reason why it won't happen. its very big and weighty reason however, compared to the others though, because thats typically how they function with pokemon like this: made as a gimmick then forgotten and done nothing more with.

[MCerberus]

I was referring specifically to these four port bastards

Spoiler: Images from Bulbapedia

Show

Dracozolt seems to be the only one that isn't described as constantly suffering just by living and it's spelled out that these patchwork creations can't occur in nature or survive in the wild. Half the Pokedex entries are descriptions of how bad they're suffering and the other half is either Cara Liss covering her ass or just being that oblivious

I was aware of the origin of the mismatches but never went after the fossils when I was playing through.
Also, good, you never heard the word "Murderdactyl"

[Saambell]

For game mechanics reasons I doubt we will see evolutions, as at least one of them is a massive powerhouse and doesn't believe in resisted walls. When a water type can one or two shot grass or water type walls, there's problems.

For lore reasons, these poor things cant even breed, them trying to grow and improve seems unlikely. They are unnatural "what has science done" personified, evolutions are unlikely.

What my money is on is if they are ever "expanded on" is that in any theoretical follow up to them is the other halves of them are used to mix and match a whole new set rather then give the full normal ones. So we would get the heads of the drake and bird, but the legs of the fish and dino to make a whole new set of monsters, but they cant be combined with the old set.

[Squark]

So, I'm trying to nuzlocke Shield on a second profile, and debating whether to post it as a Let's play. Does anyone know of a forum-friendly image hosting site?

[Aotrs Commander]

I was referring specifically to these four port bastards

Spoiler: Images from Bulbapedia

Show

Dracozolt seems to be the only one that isn't described as constantly suffering just by living and it's spelled out that these patchwork creations can't occur in nature or survive in the wild. Half the Pokedex entries are descriptions of how bad they're suffering and the other half is either Cara Liss covering her ass or just being that oblivious

I hope that these poor babies get evolutions of something that like, fixes the problem with their incomparable bodies.

@Raz. Yes, I'm aware that this ha happened. I noted that Pokemon had been engineered as weapons before. But now that we know that you can mix and match fossils I'm worried that someone will do it on purpose to make a monstrosity.

...

THE ACTUAL [EXPLETIVE], Pokémon.



That hurts me on so many, many, MANY levels as an armchair palentologist.



Thanks, thogh Gamefreak, for absolutely convincing me that I stopped at the rigth time, if THIS is where you're heading now, frack.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

THE ACTUAL [EXPLETIVE], Pokémon.



That hurts me on so many, many, MANY levels as an armchair palentologist.



Thanks, thogh Gamefreak, for absolutely convincing me that I stopped at the rigth time, if THIS is where you're heading now, frack.

The other side of the story is that it's a reference to early paleontology, in which Britain and British people played an important role. Body parts were misplaced (the famous horn of the iguanodon that was later identified as a thumb spike, and sometimes skeletons from two entirely different species were jumbled up and mixed together, I think the jury is still out on whether brontosaurus is a junior synonym of apatosaurus, is actually a different species in the same subfamily of it the name of one particular apatosaurus skeleton with the wrong head attached which should never be reused for any real species. (Mildly exaggerated maybe.) So that's what they were going for. These pokémon are similar to something like Voltorb, designed to be funny in a very specific context, and disregarded in any other.

[Aotrs Commander]

The other side of the story is that it's a reference to early paleontology, in which Britain and British people played an important role. Body parts were misplaced (the famous horn of the iguanodon that was later identified as a thumb spike, and sometimes skeletons from two entirely different species were jumbled up and mixed together, I think the jury is still out on whether brontosaurus is a junior synonym of apatosaurus, is actually a different species in the same subfamily of it the name of one particular apatosaurus skeleton with the wrong head attached which should never be reused for any real species. (Mildly exaggerated maybe.) So that's what they were going for. These pokémon are similar to something like Voltorb, designed to be funny in a very specific context, and disregarded in any other.

Oh, I know what they were thinking of, it's just... On an palentological level, just.... All of the nope.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh, I know what they were thinking of, it's just... On an palentological level, just.... All of the nope.

'All of the nope' pretty much sums it up for me too. My players haven't started digging yet, but if they ever have fossils go smash while digging, those things will be the reason I cite for not being able to rez the pieces.

[Saambell]

These pokémon are similar to something like Voltorb, designed to be funny in a very specific context, and disregarded in any other.

Funny, in that the most anatomically impossible one, Dracovish with the fish head at the end of a Stegasaurus(?) tail, is a combat monster. Its a staple on rain teams even with mediocre stats, as a combo of several bonuses lets it 1 or 2 shot Ferrothorn or Toxapex. Yes, a water type, with a water type move, can one shot some of the bulkiest walls in the game, both that resist it. All it knows is suffering, and so it makes its foes suffer the same pain it does.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Funny, in that the most anatomically impossible one, Dracovish with the fish head at the end of a Stegasaurus(?) tail, is a combat monster. Its a staple on rain teams even with mediocre stats, as a combo of several bonuses lets it 1 or 2 shot Ferrothorn or Toxapex. Yes, a water type, with a water type move, can one shot some of the bulkiest walls in the game, both that resist it. All it knows is suffering, and so it makes its foes suffer the same pain it does.

I'm blaming that one on the Pokémon developers still not having a good grip on which Pokémon will be strong or not.

Even though the ability-move combo on this one pretty much made it impossible for the mon not to be good.

[Fable Wright]

I'm blaming that one on the Pokémon developers still not having a good grip on which Pokémon will be strong or not.

Even though the ability-move combo on this one pretty much made it impossible for the mon not to be good.

Just wait for the pokemon to get Sand Rush. Adamant Sand Rush Choice Band Dracovish.

This'll be an interesting meta.

[Rater202]

...

THE ACTUAL [EXPLETIVE], Pokémon.



That hurts me on so many, many, MANY levels as an armchair palentologist.



Thanks, thogh Gamefreak, for absolutely convincing me that I stopped at the rigth time, if THIS is where you're heading now, frack.

I do think that's the point. The scientist who revives them is named Cara Liss(In Japanese they don't even go for a pun, it's just the word for Careless) and she's either completly clueless and doesn't realize that these are not real creatures who cannot naturally exist or she just doesn't give a damn.

She's covered in mud and wearing mismatched shoes, which supports either.

Her revival machine also seems to be smaller and less high tech than the ones we see in other games, which combine with the fact that she's not in a city could mean that she's not an accredited scientist... Or it could mean that she's on a budget and legitimately does need a far more complete fossil to revive it.

Though this does basically prove that Fossil Pokemon are actually brought back to life, not cloned. Even with their bodies adapted somewhat( the fact that the one with a fish head on a dragon tail didn't immediately drop dead from not having its systems connected.) BEcuase if these were clones they'd like, either not exist or they'd have a more harmonious body pattern.

Which raises the question of why death is still a thing in these universes.

On another forum I frequent, another poster speculated that Cara is going to show up as a non-cachable Boss Pokemon at some point after she snaps and uses fossil revival tech to fuse herself with a bunch of Pokemon parts.

[DataNinja]

Which raises the question of why death is still a thing in these universes.

Probably because A) what works on energy beings likely won't work on people, and B) cloning just means genetic replication - so you'd have a you that looks like you, with none of your personality, mannerisms, memory, etc.

[Rater202]

Probably because A) what works on energy beings likely won't work on people, and B) cloning just means genetic replication - so you'd have a you that looks like you, with none of your personality, mannerisms, memory, etc.

But it's not cloning. it's revival. These fossil pokemon don't work if they're not literal revivals.

and Pokemon aren't energy beings. They can be digitized, but they're all flesh and blood except for the ones that are ghosts, minerals, or garbage.

[MCerberus]

A thought: the entire pokedex is filled with the kind of errors that lead to the mix-match fossils. Humanity playing loose with Promethus' fire the second they get the smallest amount of power is a huge recurring theme going all the way back the Mewtwo

edit - also booted up Sword to play around a bit and am reminded just how much of the game is carried on its sound design. There's a lot wrong but the audio keeps you in the world, from the route themes to how the champion battle is a remix of the gen 1 hall of fame.

[Rater202]

Is it bad that I want a Pokemon Game where the Big Bad is just a guy who figured out how to use Dynaamax, Z-Moves, and Mega Evolution and any other such gimmicks they come up with at the same time to just turn a single regular Pokemon into a Giant Monster to rampage across the region(or multiple regions) as like a Raid Boss?