Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

[Squark]

Swear on my life, 100% honesty, I'd rather be called Flufferdoodle than human. My species name is not my name. I also don't think pokemon have actual names themselves, pretty sure dogs and cats don't.

And before the inevitable, "You don't think animals are people?!" yes, animals (and pokemon) are people, I just don't think they're sapient/sentient, whichever is the right word, enough to give themselves names.

As far as I'm concerned, a pokemon is a really smart animal. A superpowered animal, but an animal.

...There's gonna be A LOOOOT of people yelling at me in the near future.



Edit: The only exception I have for this are some legendaries and a few mythicals. Giratina obviously has human intelligence, but you cannot make me think that houndoom is any smarter than a particularly bright German Shepard, and it's my favorite pokemon!

Given the strong influence of Yokai (and other culture's folklore in later generations) on Pokemon design, the line between animal and spirit/fairy/other term for mystical entity in Pokémon is... blurry. Personally, the level of intelligence and understanding Pokémon display in the games suggests that a lot of the more human-like pokemon are pretty intelligent, but have a very different set of desires and needs, much like a creature from a fairy tale. I guess you could make the case that they're somewhere around Dolpin or Great Ape levels of intelligence, but... Well, those animals continue to surprise scientists with just how much they understand/can learn*, so... *shrug*

*Both Gorillas and Bonobos are capable of communicating with us via language when given a medium both species can use, like sign language or pictograms.

[LansXero]

Animals might not have names but at least drom judging cata and their territories, they would at least recognize each other with their most defining features.

An overweight orange cat might be paraphrased as Chunkie or Red Giant.

Likely smell. They dont have a concept of language or verbal communication so there are no 'cat names in cat language'

[Lord Raziere]

Well here is my logic and why I think all pokemon are sapient:

plants exist. plant pokemon also exist.

in gen 1 games:
-a sailor on the SS Anne mentions jellyfish exist. not tentacool, jellyfish.
-a chef on the SS Anne mentions several meat dishes involving eels, salmon and beefsteak
-a rocket grunt calls the player a little rat.

meaning normal animals also exist. they're referenced enough in gen 1 to think that they there, and there a few references across the core series that appear as far as X and Y. they're sparse but they are there.

as well as many pokemon referring to real animals with the pokemon equivalent being "the [blank] pokemon" implying that there is a distinction between a mouse and a pikachu.

most pokemon don't prey on other pokemon. there is no proof of them doing so and its almost never brought up. pokemon are treated as if they're all living in harmony and happiness. this implies to me that normal animals are hunted by both humans and pokemon. after all, why hunt a being that has superpowers when you can hunt the ones lower on the food chain instead?

that and there is at least one pokemon who can talk that isn't legendary or mythical: the rotomdex. he is annoying and a I hate him but thats nothing special to me where sapient beings are concerned.

then there is the unown. the concept of language in the form of living hieroglyphs that are used to form messages in ancient ruins. they're not actually legendary. and language is something that requires a lot of intelligence to pull off. and they supposedly created the universe working together with Arceus, that takes some intelligence and power to pull off.

furthermore in gen 1, Bill combines himself with the body of a pokemon and can still speak. he looks like a pokemon fully, but he is saying human stuff. which means that its possible for a pokemon to handle human sapience capacity with their bodies.

Ditto can turn into humans based on what we know from USUM. its shapeshifting is reconstituting its cellular structure to duplicate anything it sees, so it can duplicate humanity. but here is the thing: ditto is implied to be a failed clone of Mew. Mew, is said to have the DNA of every single pokemon contained in its body. it is believed to be the ancestor of all pokemon, and can also learn transform. but if Ditto can turn into humans, that means Mew can turn into humans. but if Mew can turn into humans that means.....Mew has human DNA. if Mew has human DNA, that means that humans are descended or count as pokemon themselves.

and here is the thing: in the pokemon game a lot of the sprites for trainers are re-used. all hikers look like the same the hiker. all nurses look like the same nurse. just like pokemon. you can say this is a sprite limitation, sure, but then why are so many trainers adhering to a certain elemental archetype in terms of pokemon when the smart thing to do is to have at least some diversity even if your a type-maniac? perhaps it is because there is some pokemon rules still applying to them, with certain people having certain pokemon typing as a part of their genetic makeup. this would explain why gym leaders are so obsessed with their type gyms: they're actually a rare kind of poke-human that is intensely tied to their chosen type and feel as if they are working with their pokemon kin.

so not only are pokemon sapient....its possible that humans ARE pokemon, just a form that has wandered farther away from their origins.

[MCerberus]

I believe the canon answer to if other animals exist in the pokemon world is "don't worry about what's in the sausage curry".

Although this discussion does remind me about some classic madness from the series, two particular theories. First is the "Ash in a coma" theory where we see the world populated by all sorts of non-pokemon animals before he gets shocked and progressively less and less as his mind creates a world entirely about pokemon. The other is "pokemon are bioweapons" in which with all their advantages, pokemon displace every regular species.


Both theories are shrieking eldritch madness but that's what I love about the setting and fandom.

[Aotrs Commander]

Misty's gym explictly showed it had normal fish in it.

First is the "Ash in a coma" theory where we see the world populated by all sorts of non-pokemon animals before he gets shocked and progressively less and less as his mind creates a world entirely about pokemon.

Requisite note that the original "Ash is in a coma" theorum was largely predicated on a faulty premise and a mis-remembering of the sequence of events, because the lightning-bolting happened at the end of the first episode, before he'd met anyone (e.g. Team Rocket) aside from Misty in passing.

[MCerberus]

Requisite note that the original "Ash is in a coma" theorum was largely predicated on a faulty premise and a mis-remembering of the sequence of events, because the lightning-bolting happened at the end of the first episode, before he'd met anyone (e.g. Team Rocket) aside from Misty in passing.

It is still vastly more creating and interesting than the "everyone is actually dead" theory that seems to get applied to every cartoon.

But another thing, especially recently the dex has been more likely to mention predatory relationships, like how Alolan Meowth was introduced to eat Rattatas. There is an explanation that earlier mentions of animals was just setting wonk before the world was finalized, and both Origins and Generations don't have regular animals.

[Squark]

It is still vastly more creating and interesting than the "everyone is actually dead" theory that seems to get applied to every cartoon.

But another thing, especially recently the dex has been more likely to mention predatory relationships, like how Alolan Meowth was introduced to eat Rattatas. There is an explanation that earlier mentions of animals was just setting wonk before the world was finalized, and both Origins and Generations don't have regular animals.

It was Yungoos, actually; much like how real life mongooses were introduced to many of the pacific islands. Where, instead of controlling invasive species as hoped, they ate just about everything else instead.

[OracleofWuffing]

Yeah, I nickname anything that's not under the "breed 1,000 of these for IVs" umbrella. At one point, I even challenged myself to only name pokemon after kinds of pastries for a run.

Takeshi Shudo, the writer for the anime and movies, stated on his blog that real-world animals went extinct years ago and no longer exist, at least in the anime-canon. He further claimed that their appearance in... Many... episodes of the anime were just the animators not following his directions.

[Bashhammer]

Well here is my logic and why I think all pokemon are sapient:

plants exist. plant pokemon also exist.

in gen 1 games:
-a sailor on the SS Anne mentions jellyfish exist. not tentacool, jellyfish.
-a chef on the SS Anne mentions several meat dishes involving eels, salmon and beefsteak
-a rocket grunt calls the player a little rat.

meaning normal animals also exist. they're referenced enough in gen 1 to think that they there, and there a few references across the core series that appear as far as X and Y. they're sparse but they are there.

as well as many pokemon referring to real animals with the pokemon equivalent being "the [blank] pokemon" implying that there is a distinction between a mouse and a pikachu.

most pokemon don't prey on other pokemon. there is no proof of them doing so and its almost never brought up. pokemon are treated as if they're all living in harmony and happiness. this implies to me that normal animals are hunted by both humans and pokemon. after all, why hunt a being that has superpowers when you can hunt the ones lower on the food chain instead?

that and there is at least one pokemon who can talk that isn't legendary or mythical: the rotomdex. he is annoying and a I hate him but thats nothing special to me where sapient beings are concerned.

then there is the unown. the concept of language in the form of living hieroglyphs that are used to form messages in ancient ruins. they're not actually legendary. and language is something that requires a lot of intelligence to pull off. and they supposedly created the universe working together with Arceus, that takes some intelligence and power to pull off.

furthermore in gen 1, Bill combines himself with the body of a pokemon and can still speak. he looks like a pokemon fully, but he is saying human stuff. which means that its possible for a pokemon to handle human sapience capacity with their bodies.

Ditto can turn into humans based on what we know from USUM. its shapeshifting is reconstituting its cellular structure to duplicate anything it sees, so it can duplicate humanity. but here is the thing: ditto is implied to be a failed clone of Mew. Mew, is said to have the DNA of every single pokemon contained in its body. it is believed to be the ancestor of all pokemon, and can also learn transform. but if Ditto can turn into humans, that means Mew can turn into humans. but if Mew can turn into humans that means.....Mew has human DNA. if Mew has human DNA, that means that humans are descended or count as pokemon themselves.

and here is the thing: in the pokemon game a lot of the sprites for trainers are re-used. all hikers look like the same the hiker. all nurses look like the same nurse. just like pokemon. you can say this is a sprite limitation, sure, but then why are so many trainers adhering to a certain elemental archetype in terms of pokemon when the smart thing to do is to have at least some diversity even if your a type-maniac? perhaps it is because there is some pokemon rules still applying to them, with certain people having certain pokemon typing as a part of their genetic makeup. this would explain why gym leaders are so obsessed with their type gyms: they're actually a rare kind of poke-human that is intensely tied to their chosen type and feel as if they are working with their pokemon kin.

so not only are pokemon sapient....its possible that humans ARE pokemon, just a form that has wandered farther away from their origins.

At the risk of sounding like I'm moving the goalpost...

I think any references to real life animals in the games I attribute to Ye Olde "Early Installment Weirdness". The games haven't mentioned them at all since, so I don't think that real life animals exist in pokemon, the pokemon are the animals of there world.

Pretty damn sure pokemon eat other pokemon, why wouldn't they, and the curries in SWSH prove that people eat pokemon.

I got nothing on Rotomdex.

Last, the fact that people use the same sprites can be attributed to the fact that it's a video game, not that they ACTUALLY all look the same.

Again, I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for not naming their pokemon, people can do what they want. I'm just saying that I'll never understand why.

[Squark]

At the risk of sounding like I'm moving the goalpost...

I think any references to real life animals in the games I attribute to Ye Olde "Early Installment Weirdness". The games haven't mentioned them at all since, so I don't think that real life animals exist in pokemon, the pokemon are the animals of there world.

Pretty damn sure pokemon eat other pokemon, why wouldn't they, and the curries in SWSH prove that people eat pokemon.

Pokemon eating other pokemon is pretty well documented. Humans eating pokemon is a lot less referenced- The only definite reference I can call is to slowpoke tails, and since those grow back and have no pain recepters*, this is more like if wool were edible. The anime did have some early references to eating pokemon, but that also seems to he a case of early installment weirdness.

*The tail is, after all, their bait when fishing. While catching a wild slowpoke, lopping off the tail, and then dumping them back in the wild would be traumatizing, domesticated slowpoke woule have an ample food source and would be in a calming environment with farmers they trust when their tails would be harvested.

[tonberrian]

Pokemon eating other pokemon is pretty well documented. Humans eating pokemon is a lot less referenced- The only definite reference I can call is to slowpoke tails, and since those grow back and have no pain recepters*, this is more like if wool were edible. The anime did have some early references to eating pokemon, but that also seems to he a case of early installment weirdness.

*The tail is, after all, their bait when fishing. While catching a wild slowpoke, lopping off the tail, and then dumping them back in the wild would be traumatizing, domesticated slowpoke woule have an ample food source and would be in a calming environment with farmers they trust when their tails would be harvested.

There's also Farfetch'd. It's whole schtick is that it's been eaten with the leek it carries.

[Squark]

There's also Farfetch'd. It's whole schtick is that it's been eaten with the leek it carries.

The Anime references that early on, but the games themselves have never mentioned that, and later depictions have been moved away from that (Probably because the international audience doesn't get the reference).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Oh, it's almost time for the next thread already. Maybe something with the the semi-recent Isle of Armor or the upcoming Crown Tundra? "Pokémon Thread XXX: Doubles on tundra"?

[Qwertystop]

The Anime references that early on, but the games themselves have never mentioned that, and later depictions have been moved away from that (Probably because the international audience doesn't get the reference).

Honestly, even without knowing the source idiom, the core idea "this is food that comes with its own seasoning" comes across pretty clearly.

[MCerberus]

Oh, it's almost time for the next thread already. Maybe something with the the semi-recent Isle of Armor or the upcoming Crown Tundra? "Pokémon Thread XXX: Doubles on tundra"?

Geography joke, "the Island of (Poke)Man"?
No that's no good.

Anyway, pokemon forming a food chain probably is a solid "1" on the 1-10 scale about how messed up the setting gets.

[Ortho]

Oh, it's almost time for the next thread already. Maybe something with the the semi-recent Isle of Armor or the upcoming Crown Tundra? "Pokémon Thread XXX: Doubles on tundra"?

Pokémon Thread XXX: Now with paid DLC!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Anyway, pokemon forming a food chain probably is a solid "1" on the 1-10 scale about how messed up the setting gets.

That particular comic is a stretch. The status of the pokédex text is debatable to begin with, and in this particular entry it doesn't say they have to be recent deaths. (Although fair enough the number of people you see living in an average in-game region seems too low to support this concept any which way.)

I'd say the whole animal rights/**** fighting/slavery/eating creatures of in some cases definitely near-human intelligence angle is actually an important one to figure out for any consistent, well thought out version of the pokéverse, but I'm not really sure if they even have human rights to begin with. The police exist but are never there, even rangers seem to work mostly based on "these guys asked nicely" rather than any actual rules and the setting mostly seems to exists by the grace of ten year old chosen ones keeping everyone in line by their own volition. Which seems to work fine for them, but doesn't lay the best groundwork for a solid legal system. So my best guess is eating Pokémon is very common anywhere in this world until young teens show up, then everybody hides. And they probably starve if the kid doesn't leave too, because it doesn't feel like there's a lot of proper food production going on in that world.

Pokémon Thread XXX: Now with paid DLC!

Not bad, I like it.

[Lord Raziere]

That particular comic is a stretch. The status of the pokédex text is debatable to begin with, and in this particular entry it doesn't say they have to be recent deaths. (Although fair enough the number of people you see living in an average in-game region seems too low to support this concept any which way.)

I'd say the whole animal rights/**** fighting/slavery/eating creatures of in some cases definitely near-human intelligence angle is actually an important one to figure out for any consistent, well thought out version of the pokéverse, but I'm not really sure if they even have human rights to begin with. The police exist but are never there, even rangers seem to work mostly based on "these guys asked nicely" rather than any actual rules and the setting mostly seems to exists by the grace of ten year old chosen ones keeping everyone in line by their own volition. Which seems to work fine for them, but doesn't lay the best groundwork for a solid legal system. So my best guess is eating Pokémon is very common anywhere in this world until young teens show up, then everybody hides. And they probably starve if the kid doesn't leave too, because it doesn't feel like there's a lot of proper food production going on in that world.

Which is why to make things make sense, I just say there are normal animals people eat instead. you guys let canon get in the way of things actually working too much.

[PhantomFox]

My mind must be in the gutter. I see an XXX thread title discussion for Pokemon and jumps to that one PlagueOfGripes video.
"Everyone knows what goes on out there. They don't talk about it, but they know. You think this stuff is popular because of Smogon??"

[Kareeah_Indaga]

My mind must be in the gutter. I see an XXX thread title discussion for Pokemon and jumps to that one PlagueOfGripes video.
"Everyone knows what goes on out there. They don't talk about it, but they know. You think this stuff is popular because of Smogon??"

So Pokémon Thread XXX: Contains Adult Themes or Pokémon Thread XXX: No One Under 17 Admitted?

[Qwertystop]

So Pokémon Thread XXX: Contains Adult Themes or Pokémon Thread XXX: No One Under 17 Admitted?

It isn't *actually* an adult thread; humorous reference to the idea is probably okay but implying that it's actually over the line probably isn't.

[MCerberus]

Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir Fanart Central?

[Squark]

Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir Fanart Central?

I like it. Topical while still joking about the numerals'... other meaning.

[Lord Raziere]

Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir Fanart Central?

My suggestion:
Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir? I barely know 'oir!

[Rater202]

My mind must be in the gutter. I see an XXX thread title discussion for Pokemon and jumps to that one PlagueOfGripes video.
"Everyone knows what goes on out there. They don't talk about it, but they know. You think this stuff is popular because of Smogon??"

So Pokémon Thread XXX: Contains Adult Themes or Pokémon Thread XXX: No One Under 17 Admitted?

It isn't *actually* an adult thread; humorous reference to the idea is probably okay but implying that it's actually over the line probably isn't.

Pokemon Thread XXX: Where *Do* The Egg's Come From?

My suggestion:
Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir? I barely know 'oir!

Should be "know of 'oir." It ryhmes a little better.

[Bartmanhomer]

Pokemon Thread XXX: The 30th Movie Special.

[LaZodiac]

XXX: State of the Unown.

You know, the pokemon, but also a reference to Triple X: State of the Union.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Pokemon Thread XXX: Gardevoir Fanart Central?

Lopunny X Gardevoir?

Hot Skitty on Wailord action?

XXX: State of the Unown.

Noice.

[Qwertystop]

Hot Skitty on Wailord action?

I'm pretty sure we've actually had that one before.

[Fable Wright]

I'm pretty sure we've actually had that one before.

We had "Day Care Man Doesn't Know How It Got Here" but not Skitty on Wailord.

My vote is for Skitty on Wailord.