MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Keltest]

Reading down the thread again, I was struck by the phrase "abnormally small". From whence do you derive this, Keltest? Granted that MitD is smaller than an adult of his species, as cited in many places (notably Oona's stating he will grow bigger, and we take her as an expert), why say he's "abnormally" small? An adolescent human is often smaller than their parent, yet we usually don't think of them as "abnormally" small; often they would not be a full size category smaller.

I apologize if I seem to be harping on this, but it could be an important distinction. It's just that your word "abnormally" threw me for what might have been an unintentional loop.

Abnormal compared to an adult of the species, which would be the only stat block available for 90+% of monsters. AFAIK its never been explicitly stated that the MITD is not fully grown, and while Oona is implying it, without knowledge of how his species develops we cant really be sure if she isn't just guessing based on his size, the same as we are. I don't think its necessarily an unreasonable guess, although it does run into the problems of how its still so powerful if its not mature, and I would suggest that it would undermine his character development somewhat if he was acting like a child because he was literally a child, and he grew out of it because of time passing rather than his character growing.

[Schroeswald]

Abnormal compared to an adult of the species, which would be the only stat block available for 90+% of monsters. AFAIK its never been explicitly stated that the MITD is not fully grown, and while Oona is implying it, without knowledge of how his species develops we cant really be sure if she isn't just guessing based on his size, the same as we are. I don't think its necessarily an unreasonable guess, although it does run into the problems of how its still so powerful if its not mature, and I would suggest that it would undermine his character development somewhat if he was acting like a child because he was literally a child, and he grew out of it because of time passing rather than his character growing.

He is so clearly a kid throughout everything except that time he watched Hilgya and Durkon have sex, his development isn’t just him not being as childish, it’s about him recognizing right and wrong and who is treating him poorly, he still acts like a child, but a more moral and responsible one.

[Darth Paul]

Thanks, Keltest, for the explanation. So he's smaller than an adult stat block, although maybe not abnormally small for any other juvenile of that species? I don't think you were trying to convey that thought, were you?

He is so clearly a kid throughout everything except that time he watched Hilgya and Durkon have sex, his development isn’t just him not being as childish, it’s about him recognizing right and wrong and who is treating him poorly, he still acts like a child, but a more moral and responsible one.

I think of him as about a 12 to 14 year old who has lived a very sheltered life, only exposed to a bad family, who is finally getting outside influences and making decisions for himself. He fits the model of an abused child who patterns himself after his abusers to some extent, and O-Chul has shown him an alternative.

[Schroeswald]

Thanks, Keltest, for the explanation. So he's smaller than an adult stat block, although maybe not abnormally small for any other juvenile of that species? I don't think you were trying to convey that thought, were you?



I think of him as about a 12 to 14 year old who has lived a very sheltered life, only exposed to a bad family, who is finally getting outside influences and making decisions for himself. He fits the model of an abused child who patterns himself after his abusers to some extent, and O-Chul has shown him an alternative.

I'd agree with you, that would also fit him watching Hilgya and Durkon have sex, thats the age where some kids would start to do that.

[Throknor]

To bring us back closer to the mind-control issue, Durkon's Command: DROP spell caused the SI elemental to have swirly eyes. I've not seen any discussion about that spell (though I admit I may have missed it). Does it have a long duration? Is it limited to simple commands? Is it divine only?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To bring us back closer to the mind-control issue, Durkon's Command: DROP spell caused the SI elemental to have swirly eyes. I've not seen any discussion about that spell (though I admit I may have missed it). Does it have a long duration? Is it limited to simple commands? Is it divine only?

It's a level 1 cleric spell, so as you can imagine, no, yes, & yes.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

From a point of view, Geas is just Command on steroids... not that this gets us any closer to the solution of the mind-control spell, but maybe Xykon homebrewed an arcane uber-Command spell of some kind? Is there anything Command does better than Geas from the caster's point of view, so that an epic Command spell would be preferred for some reason?

Or (I've missed a lot of the speculation too) is there some possiblity of a maximized or epic Geas? (Although I believe Geas is already as maximized as you can get, yes?)

(Fulfilling my role of tossing up speculations for better-informed forumites to shoot down...)

[Crusher]

From a point of view, Geas is just Command on steroids... not that this gets us any closer to the solution of the mind-control spell, but maybe Xykon homebrewed an arcane uber-Command spell of some kind? Is there anything Command does better than Geas from the caster's point of view, so that an epic Command spell would be preferred for some reason?

Or (I've missed a lot of the speculation too) is there some possiblity of a maximized or epic Geas? (Although I believe Geas is already as maximized as you can get, yes?)

(Fulfilling my role of tossing up speculations for better-informed forumites to shoot down...)

Honestly, Suggestion is really good except for the enormous weakness in its duration which Geas fixes to varying degrees depending on how you interpret it (ok, and saving throws and a few other things). My money is on a level 6 or 8 homebrew "Xykon's extra-long duration Suggestion spell", which does, however, have the downside of wondering why he never uses it on anyone else (other than that its easier for him to kill most people than Suggest them, and not really his style, either).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Honestly, Suggestion is really good except for the enormous weakness in its duration which Geas fixes to varying degrees depending on how you interpret it (ok, and saving throws and a few other things). My money is on a level 6 or 8 homebrew "Xykon's extra-long duration Suggestion spell", which does, however, have the downside of wondering why he never uses it on anyone else (other than that its easier for him to kill most people than Suggest them, and not really his style, either).

IF we assume that the comic skips showing 10-minute long casts for the sake of pacing, but that the casting still happened between panels, "why Xykon doesn't use this against the dragon" has an answer: because geas cannot reasonably be used in combat, because it takes 100 rounds. Xykon uses it on MitD because MitD is not attacking.

Not sure I quite buy it, but it is still a possibility.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

IF we assume that the comic skips showing 10-minute long casts for the sake of pacing, but that the casting still happened between panels, "why Xykon doesn't use this against the dragon" has an answer: because geas cannot reasonably be used in combat, because it takes 100 rounds. Xykon uses it on MitD because MitD is not attacking.

Not sure I quite buy it, but it is still a possibility.

Grey Wolf

Didn't think of it like that, that's a good way of looking at it.

[Aspheric]

The problem is that we have seen a 10-minute spell cast in the comic, and the casting time isn't skipped. The long cast time is kind of a plot point, too.

To reiterate something I wrote earlier, I think assuming that the spell is still in effect is a stretch. I don't think Rich would provide foreshadowing in an optional prequel, and I think the events of that scene make sense with Suggestion, with the spell's effect being contained by the events of SoD. That the scene is also important to this thread doesn't change that.

[Schroeswald]

The problem is that we have seen a 10-minute spell cast in the comic, and the casting time isn't skipped. The long cast time is kind of a plot point, too.

To reiterate something I wrote earlier, I think assuming that the spell is still in effect is a stretch. I don't think Rich would provide foreshadowing in an optional prequel, and I think the events of that scene make sense with Suggestion, with the spell's effect being contained by the events of SoD. That the scene is also important to this thread doesn't change that.

That's because time was super important then, I promise you it would have been skipped over if V didn't have the soul splice in affect.

[Squire Doodad]

That's because time was super important then, I promise you it would have been skipped over if V didn't have the soul splice in affect.

If V had gone to their mate and said "I promise you on my parent's life that I will save my friends, then release this and cast not a single spell more until it is gone", and then followed through with it, then yeah raise deadification would have taken like 3 panels tops.

[Liokae]

Just noticed something in the #1041 monster appearance- I'm guessing it's probably been noted elsewhere, but it wasn't mentioned on the notes for that comic in the FAQ listing so I thought I'd point it out?

Last panel, when he paints over the extra doors, there's no footprints/markings in the snow to those extra doors.

[b_jonas]

#1041 ... Last panel, when he paints over the extra doors, there's no footprints/markings in the snow to those extra doors.

Yeah. We did discuss that a lot in the threads, but in the end we can't tell if it's some specific ability like levitation or flight or water walking, or just an art choice of not revealing the footprints. But you have a good point, I should mention that in the appearance post. We decided that it doesn't contradict the strange tracks mentioned in #474, because those could be left by the MitD dragging Mr. Stiffly (as seen in #484) and a coffee table. We also discussed how many appendages the MitD needs to hold the umbrella, the can of paint, and paintbrush at the same time.

[redemedic]

Wait, So how many limbs does MitD have?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, So how many limbs does MitD have?

Manipulative limbs? At least 1. Probably two, given how common bilateral symmetry is, but everything he has done he could probably do with a particularly strong elephant's trunk.

Total limbs, including any used for locomotion? Impossible to say.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

"Manipulative Limbs," new band name, I call it.

[b_jonas]

Wait, So how many limbs does MitD have?

Varies, because he's a shapeshifter. He can grow ten legs if he needs that many for combat. We haven't seen that happen because Xykon is feeding him so he doesn't need to hunt on his own.

[Peelee]

Varies, because he's a shapeshifter.

Dammit, you got to it before I could!

[Jasdoif]

"Manipulative Limbs," new band name, I call it.

Are The Prehensiles out of business?

[Aspheric]

Varies, because he's a shapeshifter.

I don't know, feels like you're going out on a limb here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Varies, because he's a shapeshifter. He can grow ten legs if he needs that many for combat. We haven't seen that happen because Xykon is feeding him so he doesn't need to hunt on his own.

Dammit, you got to it before I could!

I don't know, feels like you're going out on a limb here.

I know I say this often but: you are all rotters and I hate you.

ETA:

....proposing this for the title of the next thread.

I support it.

See above.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

You are all rotters and I hate you.

....proposing this for the title of the next thread.

[Schroeswald]

....proposing this for the title of the next thread.

I support it.

[ZerglingOne]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but how about a demonspawn of Demogorgon?

It's hideous, has wish that specifically aligns with its goals, is very hard to damage, is incredibly strong, has tentacle arms that aren't especially good for pulling, is ravenous(demogorgon was half created from a demon that basically ate tons of other demons), and has an explanation for the demon roaches.

It would be a demonspawn, so speaking common would be unexpected, and it may not have access to telepathy or tongues given it's not a godlike creature.

Thoughts anyone?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but how about a demonspawn of Demogorgon?

It's hideous, has wish that specifically aligns with its goals, is very hard to damage, is incredibly strong, has tentacle arms that aren't especially good for pulling, is ravenous(demogorgon was half created from a demon that basically ate tons of other demons), and has an explanation for the demon roaches.

It would be a demonspawn, so speaking common would be unexpected, and it may not have access to telepathy or tongues given it's not a godlike creature.

Thoughts anyone?

Not having access to a stat block, only wikipedia, immediately I suspect it'll have trouble with the number of eyes, and with the hunter's declaration of "one of these", since it seems to be a unique named creature. If the children possess the same stats as the parent, please reference the name of the children.

I'm slightly miffed that due to a creature of the same name appearing in Netflix, I'm getting a lot of chaff in my googling.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I'm slightly miffed that due to a creature of the same name appearing in Netflix, I'm getting a lot of chaff in my googling.

Grey Wolf

I'd imagine it's even worse in that they named it after the D&D demon lord.

[Squire Doodad]

I'd imagine it's even worse in that they named it after the D&D demon lord.

At least "Mind Flayer" already has like 50 pop culture iterations.

[Jasdoif]

Not having access to a stat block, only wikipedia, immediately I suspect it'll have trouble with the number of eyes, and with the hunter's declaration of "one of these", since it seems to be a unique named creature. If the children possess the same stats as the parent, please reference the name of the children.

I'm slightly miffed that due to a creature of the same name appearing in Netflix, I'm getting a lot of chaff in my googling.

Demogorgon is presented in Fiendish Codex I, superseding the original presentation in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness. The aspect of Demogorgon (a CR 9 fragment reflecting the CR 23 demon lord) is presented in a web enhancement that's still available from WotC's site.