MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MiTD is more likely to grow at the speed of the plot/artistic convenience than at the speed of real life human species.

And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?

"The point" would be to indicate that MitD's species is one category larger than MitD. Not that size doesn't matter.

You are dismissive of "10% increase", but I get the feeling you don't understand just how absurd it is for anything to grow more than 50%. Whether or not MitD follows human growth patterns or not, humans are well understood so they serve as a reference point. Do you know how old you were when you were half your current size? 3. Human beings double their size between the age of 3 and adulthood. That's how brutal a doubling of size is.

Meanwhile, I think of a ten year old pre-teen and look at their parent, and can think "his dad is much larger than he is", where it literally just means "his dad is maybe 20-40% larger"

So yes, I dislike this idea that "his dad is much larger" can possibly mean "his dad is three, four or five categories larger" because that requires an absurd growth spurt. Especially, when you consider that strength requirements that carries with it, something I see no-one addressing in the "lets just ignore size categories" side of things.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I’m not saying that MITD’s species is 5 size categories larger in saying that it’s likely a huge species and huge shouldn’t be considered a con.

[Mightymosy]

For me, the more important question would still be: is any creature fitting perfectly except for being two size categories too big?

So far I just don't see it.


I could see mythical/magical creatures have absurd growth spurts, but as of yet I just haven't noticed a creature that would fit all other parameters I consider important for my guess (for the Ha Naga, for example, size and the required Strength penalty, are lesser cons to me than the described environment and that they are high level spellcasters with a huge list of spells - I just don't see this being much in line with the narrative so far).

So, rather than arguing about the use of a size restriction, I'd much rather look for other monsters, and THEN discuss whether their size is a problem.


@Crusher: please remove the Amorph from my list. I thought the Teraport was intrinsic to the creature. I don't see MitD pulling out an electronic device to teleport someone else.....so I guess it is not an Amorph after some consideration.

[Aveline]

Isn't it true that the MitD must be a size-reduced example of his kind, based on his comment about how big his dad was? Since if we decide that that's a red herring, we could say that some arbitrary other clue is a red herring instead and out-gotcha the red herring possibility.

[Squire Doodad]

I could see mythical/magical creatures have absurd growth spurts, but as of yet I just haven't noticed a creature that would fit all other parameters I consider important for my guess (for the Ha Naga, for example, size and the required Strength penalty, are lesser cons to me than the described environment and that they are high level spellcasters with a huge list of spells - I just don't see this being much in line with the narrative so far).

So, rather than arguing about the use of a size restriction, I'd much rather look for other monsters, and THEN discuss whether their size is a problem.

@Crusher: please remove the Amorph from my list. I thought the Teraport was intrinsic to the creature. I don't see MitD pulling out an electronic device to teleport someone else.....so I guess it is not an Amorph after some consideration.

Isn't it true that the MitD must be a size-reduced example of his kind, based on his comment about how big his dad was? Since if we decide that that's a red herring, we could say that some arbitrary other clue is a red herring instead and out-gotcha the red herring possibility.

I can see them having ridiculous growth spurts, but in the level of 50-60% growth as opposed to doubling in size. MitD is smaller than the fully grown version of his kind, but that only makes the low end of Huge perfectly viable while anything above Huge is improbable.

You have any suggestions for monsters? I'd rather not do a mythological one because that lends itself to arguments over interpretations, but I did bring up the Tarasque. That one is pretty clear cut though, there's little argument to be made aside from "can it hurl someone through a wall if it can sink a boat with its own power" and "is there some archaic text that suggests it could teleport or bestow a wish?".
There might be a size debate, but if an ox can fit into the box I don't see why a young Tarasque couldn't.
So...next candidate please.

[Joerg]

I guess if it was teleporting them to "where the Paladins are", that would work.

Yeah, but not with the teraport. There's no AI behind it that can understand such a wish and moreover knows where the paladins are. I imagine you need some kind of coordinates.

Well, the amorph could use a communication device to get in touch with one of Schlock Mercenary's uber Als which could then teraport the guys, but postulating their existence in the OotS world is really too much for me.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, but not with the teraport. There's no AI behind it that can understand such a wish and moreover knows where the paladins are. I imagine you need some kind of coordinates.

Well, the amorph could use a communication device to get in touch with one of Schlock Mercenary's uber Als which could then teraport the guys, but postulating their existence in the OotS world is really too much for me.

What if it is an Amorph with the tech implanted into it at birth, giving it a more limited and emotion driven but still functional version of teleportation? Or is that too much to still be guessable? It's just a single modification, and one that basically amounts to integrating a creature's ability into themselves as opposed to technology, which is fairly common when transferring robotic entities into fantasy settings - they tend to become magically powered golems that just so happen to look like robots.

[LadyEowyn]

"The point" would be to indicate that MitD's species is one category larger than MitD. Not that size doesn't matter.

You are dismissive of "10% increase", but I get the feeling you don't understand just how absurd it is for anything to grow more than 50%. Whether or not MitD follows human growth patterns or not, humans are well understood so they serve as a reference point. Do you know how old you were when you were half your current size? 3. Human beings double their size between the age of 3 and adulthood. That's how brutal a doubling of size is.

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

[Rob Redblade]

I have a feeling the creature HAS to be D&D related or, at the very least, be in the public domain. Using a intellectual property of another person/company would mean that to solve the guessing game, we would have to read EVERYTHING ever published. I find this idea preposterous, not to mention the copyright/trademark quagmire. The amount of published stuff in D&D is already astonishing.

[Squire Doodad]

I have a feeling the creature HAS to be D&D related or, at the very least, be in the public domain. Using a intellectual property of another person/company would mean that to solve the guessing game, we would have to read EVERYTHING ever published. I find this idea preposterous, not to mention the copyright/trademark quagmire. The amount of published stuff in D&D is already astonishing.

I think one of the sections on the first page covers that, with the Amorph being an exception because the two authors here are friends. There's one or two other exceptions. Outside of that, anything that is D&D related or Public Domain (including most mythological entities) is fair game.

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

EDIT: Didn't follow the line of communication, sorry.
Still, even if a turtle increases in size twenty-fold by adulthood, how much of that occurs as it is nearing adulthood? The phrasing gets kind of complicated with non-human examples, but if most of the growth occurs in the transition into a juvenile, and then it grows a little larger, then that is roughly in line with the idea suggested. Just taking two endpoints and saying "the growth from here to here is much bigger than yours" is a valid argument, but in this case its a matter of growth over a specific period of development.

I'm disregarding the idea of a creature that reaches maturity and then continues to grow, albeit very slowly, for the sake of the argument. That said, it is plausible that MitD is from a species that is gargantuan or even colossal as long as it is one that keeps on growing and remains fertile for all of its lifespan. In such a case, his father would be hundreds if not thousands of years old, possibly almost as old as the world. I can't think of many D&D monsters that could do that though.

[CriticalFailure]

based on "normal" animal growth.

Still confused why “normal animal growth” is being assumed

[Peelee]

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

Size categories double the size for each consecutive category. It's not multiplicative growth, it's exponential growth. The numbers get really big really fast.

[Squire Doodad]

Still confused why “normal animal growth” is being assumed

Even if you want it to be greater than average, you can't just jump to doubling its size during the transition to adulthood without evidence that it does so to back it up.

[Sir_Norbert]

Size categories double the size for each consecutive category. It's not multiplicative growth, it's exponential growth. The numbers get really big really fast.

That's not a refutation of Eowyn's point. A 20x increase, like the turtles cited, would be a leap of four size categories.

(Squire Doodad already made a better refutation, namely that it's unfair to look at the baby/adult ratio when MitD is clearly not a baby. But hey, I'm a maths teacher, I feel the need to step in when people are misunderstanding mathematical arguments :P )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe think of something non-human. Leatherback sea turtles are maybe 5 inches long when they hatch, and grow to up to 9 feet. That’s a 20X - not 2X - increase in size.

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

[Rob Redblade]

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

I don't like all those references to "child" either. A hatchling is not the same as a 3 year old. Take any juvenile/adolescent of any species and I'd bet the difference in size to their adult version isn't as stark as people would like MitD to be to his dad.

Even that, MitD doesn't seem to be the equivalent maturity level of a 3 year old. Is there any other indication of his "immaturity" other than the tea set and the "no girls club"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't like all those references to "child" either. A hatchling is not the same as a 3 year old. Take any juvenile/adolescent of any species and I'd bet the difference in size to their adult version isn't as stark as people would like MitD to be to his dad.

Even that, MitD doesn't seem to be the equivalent maturity level of a 3 year old. Is there any other indication of his "immaturity" other than the tea set and the "no girls club"?

I said 3 year old because I was trying to illustrate what it takes for a human to double in size; I was not, nor have I ever, suggested MitD is a three year old. Only that "50% growth" (i.e. half a size category) is sufficient to describe an adult as "much bigger" than a child. Although, for the record, since this is MitD speaking from his memories of his dad, it could very well be he is recalling his dad's size form the time when he was the equivalent size-wise of a three-year-old human.

The no-girls club suggests he is still in the "girls are icky" phase, but his interests in dwarven sex suggests he is not that far from puberty. The tea party is a bit harder to pin down, not being all that familiar with how the US sees that trope. I had the closest equivalent in my own culture to that all the way into late puberty, but it slowly morphed from "pretend food" to "actual food" to "pizza and D&D", so it's hard for me to measure when I switched from pretend to real.

Grey Wolf

[Rob Redblade]

I said 3 year old because I was trying to illustrate what it takes for a human to double in size; I was not, nor have I ever, suggested MitD is a three year old. Only that "50% growth (i.e. half a size category) is sufficient to describe an adult as "much bigger" than a child. Although, for the record, since this is MitD speaking from his memories of his dad, it could very well be he is recalling his dad's size form the time when he was the equivalent size-wise of a three-year-old human.

I got your comparison was to demonstrate the size and not the maturity level. The relativity of size that you mention is quite a point. As example, a few years ago former neighbours came to visit my parents' house and it happened that I was present. Mrs So-and-so was TINY. I mean, she was about the same size as my mom but back when I was 5 or 6, she was towering me and I saw her so much more intimidating than my own mother.

The no-girls club suggests he is still in the "girls are icky" phase, but his interests in dwarven sex suggests he is not that far from puberty. The tea party is a bit harder to pin down, not being all that familiar with how the US sees that trope. I had the closest equivalent in my own culture to that all the way into late puberty, but it slowly morphed from "pretend food" to "actual food" to "pizza and D&D", so it's hard for me to measure when I switched from pretend to real.

Grey Wolf

Well, tea is more a thing in the UK, anyway. I'm not American either (well, I am, but in the literal sense that I'm from North America) but from movies and stuff I would say it's something that passes away when one starts notice the opposite sex. It's almost always depicted as a "little girl" game.

[Squire Doodad]

I got your comparison was to demonstrate the size and not the maturity level. The relativity of size that you mention is quite a point. As example, a few years ago former neighbours came to visit my parents' house and it happened that I was present. Mrs So-and-so was TINY. I mean, she was about the same size as my mom but back when I was 5 or 6, she was towering me and I saw her so much more intimidating than my own mother.


Well, tea is more a thing in the UK, anyway. I'm not American either (well, I am, but in the literal sense that I'm from North America) but from movies and stuff I would say it's something that passes away when one starts notice the opposite sex. It's almost always depicted as a "little girl" game.

The 10 or so age is appropriate if you ask me. He's beginning to care about things outside of what happens over the next few days, but only just.
I agree that MitD's dad is bigger than he is, just not necessarily as much as he thinks. It's been decades since MitD last saw his dad, right? He was presumably much, much smaller then (assuming he's not a GENERICFILLERION that takes 600 years to reach maturity, in which case he was probably not much smaller) and even if he wasn't, MitD probably would have fuzzier memories by now allowing for warping and inaccuracies. Though he seems to recite all of his backstory to O-Chul, so who knows.
Hey, maybe "hyper accurate memory" is the species trait we should be looking for after all

[Rob Redblade]

Hey, maybe "hyper accurate memory" is the species trait we should be looking for after all

This ties back to my first post in the previous thread, re: clues we must ignore for now because we can't quantify them. Monster-san's deep analysis of pan-goblin politics was something. What was it? I have no idea. Maybe it means something akin to have sense motive: infinite or mind-reading or something else entirely. That and recognizing half a ritual by a single glance.

[Doug Lampert]

But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
Can teraports be used that way?

Teraports can be done without the gear moving or touching either end although they typically take the gadget with the thing teraporting, but this is mostly because you don't want to leave your ride behind and the gear is relatively cheap.

Teraport gear could easily fit inside an amorph. I'm mildly surprised that we've never had a scene where Schlock has one internal, but most of the time when he'd want to teraport on his own he's been in a Teraport Area Denial field (nearly universal now anyplace with any security at all in his universe).

Just who is maintaining the TAD field over the OotS universe? It would work.

Gear can be designed to allow Schlock to directly interface with the gear, thus he or another amorph could be given an internal teraport that he controls via thought and that can move things other than Schlock.

Such gear would be more advanced than was available in Schlock Mercenary when the Escape scene happened, but Howard Tayler might well have been asked by Rich if such gear was possible and been told yes.

The big problem, is that a teraport does require that you know where you want to go. That might be solvable, but spell-like wish is simply so much simpler as an explanation.

[Squire Doodad]

Teraports can be done without the gear moving or touching either end although they typically take the gadget with the thing teraporting, but this is mostly because you don't want to leave your ride behind and the gear is relatively cheap.

Teraport gear could easily fit inside an amorph. I'm mildly surprised that we've never had a scene where Schlock has one internal, but most of the time when he'd want to teraport on his own he's been in a Teraport Area Denial field (nearly universal now anyplace with any security at all in his universe).

Just who is maintaining the TAD field over the OotS universe? It would work.

Gear can be designed to allow Schlock to directly interface with the gear, thus he or another amorph could be given an internal teraport that he controls via thought and that can move things other than Schlock.

Such gear would be more advanced than was available in Schlock Mercenary when the Escape scene happened, but Howard Tayler might well have been asked by Rich if such gear was possible and been told yes.

The big problem, is that a teraport does require that you know where you want to go. That might be solvable, but spell-like wish is simply so much simpler as an explanation.

You lost me at "albuquerque". I don't know anything about Schlock Mercenary, is it good?

[Doug Lampert]

I love how the answer to "humans double in size from age three to adulthood" is somehow "countered" (and I use that word quite wrongly) with "baby to adult". You might as well tell me that a 20 week development human fetus to adult also increases 20x. MitD is not a baby, and he's not a new born, and he is not a fetus. How much does this sea turtle grow from late childhood to adulthood?

Grey Wolf

We have a grand total of TWO classes of species in D&D land where we know the growth pattern.

A juvenile (explicitly pre-adolescent) giant grows two size categories to reach adulthood.
Dragon juveniles vary, but can all grow 2-3 size categories from juvenile to great wyrm.

Now, in both cases, the scaling back of strength and other capabilities is substantial. But in D&D land the available precedent is that you can grow at least 2 additional size categories from a combat capable pre-adolescent juvenile.

Admittedly, the sample size is highly biased, because all the species that don't become combat capable till full sized or that reach their normal size as juveniles have no need to have juvenile forms described in game mechanical terms and thus the EXISTENCE of a juvenile description implies that juveniles are both much smaller and yet combat capable. So I'd not draw any real conclusions from the "evidence" above.

[Peelee]

You lost me at "albuquerque".

Better call Saul, then.

[Doug Lampert]

You lost me at "albuquerque". I don't know anything about Schlock Mercenary, is it good?

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Better call Saul, then.

I was headed for Magrathea, but I gave him a call anyways. Told him to meet me at that fancy restaurant. You know, the one way over on 8.8×10^23th Street? Great place, they don't do burgers very well but the performances are amazing.

I think so, or I'd not have read enough of it to have an opinion about the practicality of an amorph having an internal teraport.

If I lost you at Albuquerque then the TLDR version is that a teraport is a gadget, but it can be entirely internal to an amorph, controlled by thought, and perform as shown if you are willing to handwave that the amorph needs to know where it wants to send someone for this to work.

Also, there's no reason teraporting someone should be particularly tiring. You're using a hypothetical thought controlled gadget, not a limited use D&D power.

I suppose it not being tiring is a minor boon. If MitD had a slightly modified version (or maybe Dimensional Anchor messed with it) then maybe it worked and while MitD didn't go with due to DA, but the machinery did (but was smashed or otherwise teleported incorrectly) then I guess that would work. Still kinda iffy for a few other reasons, but a valid enough argument.

The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

There we go. Carb Amorph puns aside, that makes sense at face value and explains a few other things. Coordinates is still an issue, but not a particularly big one. Sounds like a great way to drop a couple pounds too!

[Rob Redblade]

I was headed for Magrathea, but I gave him a call anyways. Told him to meet me at that fancy restaurant. You know, the one way over on 8.8×10^23th Street? Great place, they don't do burgers very well but the performances are amazing.

Sounds interesting, do I need a prior reservation?

[Darth Paul]

The early teraports, which were a handheld doodad that a carbosilicate amorph could conceivably learn to interface with drew energy from their environment randomly - if it drew from the carb amorph, that'd translate into an amoprh that has lost a small but not insubstantial amount of matter, which makes them sluggish, tired and hungry.

Grey Wolf

Which would fit in (sluggish and tired) with the post-Escape sleeping. Interesting.

[Quebbster]

Regarding the watch dwarves have sex bit, wouldn't strip 82 be Before the MitD's identity was decided? If so, it may be one of those things that don't really support the chosen identity but don't contradict it either.