What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

[CriticalFailure]

I don’t exactly get how the Crimson Mantle’s halt on aging works when it comes to the mental effects it has?

For one thing, it seems to be up in the air whether it slows or halts aging. But what are the extents of the mental effects?

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In SOD Right-Eye says he’s the same angry kid and is basically stuck and hasn’t matured.

Based on the general portrayal of the character it seems like this is mostly due to him being obsessed with the plan and shutting all else out. How much of this is due to the effects of the Crimson Mantle versus simply isolation and obsession? Does the Crimson Mantle cause him to remain immature to a certain extent?

Redcloak has moments of growth throughout, such as realizing he needs to treat the hobgoblins better.

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also when he visits his brother he’s pretty quickly convinced to settle down, until Xykon puts the kibish on that

[Bacon Elemental]

Spoiler didnt work, its the other slash

And Redcloak's had some serious character growth since he put on the mantle, so I assume it was more like brother-brother arguing than an analytical assessment. Accusations of being childish are not strictly limited to divine artifacts after all

[Peelee]

I don’t exactly get how the Crimson Mantle’s halt on aging works when it comes to the mental effects it has?

For one thing, it seems to be up in the air whether it slows or halts aging. But what are the extents of the mental effects?

Spoiler

Show

In SOD Right-Eye says he’s the same angry kid and is basically stuck and hasn’t matured.

Based on the general portrayal of the character it seems like this is mostly due to him being obsessed with the plan and shutting all else out. How much of this is due to the effects of the Crimson Mantle versus simply isolation and obsession? Does the Crimson Mantle cause him to remain immature to a certain extent?

Redcloak has moments of growth throughout, such as realizing he needs to treat the hobgoblins better.

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also when he visits his brother he’s pretty quickly convinced to settle down, until Xykon puts the kibish on that

It doesn't affect Reddie mentally. Also, you only need a slash to close out the spoiler tags, and a forward slash instead of a backslash. For example: [SPOILER] text [/SPOILER] becomes

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[Grey_Wolf_c]

It doesn't affect Reddie mentally.

According to SoD, IIRC, it does, after a fashion: RC is stuck in "teenager angry at the world" mode. According to his brother, anyway.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

According to SoD, IIRC, it does, after a fashion: RC is stuck in "teenager angry at the world" mode. According to his brother, anyway.

Grey Wolf

I think that's entirely on Redcloak, not on the Crimson Mantle.

[Peelee]

I'm with hroþila; that's a character flaw, not a magic-item-induced issue.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah my question is basically is Redcloak supposed to be immature on a certain level and is that in part due to the crimson mantle or completely attributable to him being isolated and not having normal interactions with others or normal life goals.

[Peelee]

Yeah my question is basically is Redcloak supposed to be immature on a certain level and is that in part due to the crimson mantle or completely attributable to him being isolated and not having normal interactions with others or normal life goals.

No. Maturity comes with time, not aging. We just happen to have those as inseparable. Redcloak doesn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that's entirely on Redcloak, not on the Crimson Mantle.

No, I think it is a combination of both. Or rather, that that is what SoD is about, partially, and it sort of matches what this book is also about: you can't live in your worst day forever, because, paradoxically, not moving on warps you. RC is stuck on the worst day of his life, because he can't grow out of it, in part because the cloak keeps him a teen, which isn't exactly the most stable of mental configurations.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

No, I think it is a combination of both. Or rather, that that is what SoD is about, partially, and it sort of matches what this book is also about: you can't live in your worst day forever, because, paradoxically, not moving on warps you. RC is stuck on the worst day of his life, because he can't grow out of it, in part because the cloak keeps him a teen, which isn't exactly the most stable of mental configurations.

Grey Wolf

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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But even in SoD, he grows out of it. He returns to the goblin village and asks about that nice goblin his brother tried to set him up with. He's ready to hang up the plan.

Also, no way in hell the Redcloak who had just been ordained Cleric and put on the Crimson Mantle would be the same Redcloak who killed his little brother. Dude had to change substantially for that to happen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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But even in SoD, he grows out of it. He returns to the goblin village and asks about that nice goblin his brother tried to set him up with. He's ready to hang up the plan.

Also, no way in hell the Redcloak who had just been ordained Cleric and put on the Crimson Mantle would be the same Redcloak who killed his little brother. Dude had to change substantially for that to happen.

I'm not saying he can't change. I'm saying that he is still using a teen's brain to do the thinking. It's been a while, admittedly, but I definitely do remember that for a while, I was working with substandard equipment. And any number of studies back up the assertion that teen brains are not exactly the most reliable when it comes to making the right choices - thus why we try to stop them from operating death machines and partaking of mind altering substances.

The idea behind RC's brother is that he has moved on, and that while RC is tempted by the idea of moving on, ultimately he can't for long.

Grey Wolf

[CriticalFailure]

I guess with the cloak it’s hard to tell too because he got a whole bunch of responsibility dumped on him as a teenager and simultaneously lost any help he had for that. Which isn’t conducive to growing into a functional adult even if one keeps aging normally. But not aging physically also seems to keep him constantly able to ignore anything but the plan.

[Peelee]

I'm not saying he can't change. I'm saying that he is still using a teen's brain to do the thinking. It's been a while, admittedly, but I definitely do remember that for a while, I was working with substandard equipment. And any number of studies back up the assertion that teen brains are not exactly the most reliable when it comes to making the right choices - thus why we try to stop them from operating death machines and partaking of mind altering substances.

The idea behind RC's brother is that he has moved on, and that while RC is tempted by the idea of moving on, ultimately he can't for long.

Grey Wolf

That says nothing about whether he's still stuck as a teenager; Right-Eyes assertion could also describe fully-formed adults, Ted Kaczynski as the easiest example right off the bat. Some people just grow worse over time.

[Aveline]

The question of the Crimson Mantle is equivalent to this: Is it that it's inherently impossible for Redcloak to abandon the Plan? Or is it that he himself is so proud he doesn't want to? Or is one of these an inseparable consequence of the other?

I think it's just that he's too damn proud. His whole self-conception begins in righteousness.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not saying he can't change. I'm saying that he is still using a teen's brain to do the thinking. It's been a while, admittedly, but I definitely do remember that for a while, I was working with substandard equipment. And any number of studies back up the assertion that teen brains are not exactly the most reliable when it comes to making the right choices - thus why we try to stop them from operating death machines and partaking of mind altering substances.
The idea behind RC's brother is that he has moved on, and that while RC is tempted by the idea of moving on, ultimately he can't for long.

I find your "he's stuck in teenager mode" to fit my read of SoD and Red Cloak in general very well.
It strikes me as part of the baseline for this joke/insult from Xykon.
Xykon seems (to me) to be using a schoolyard taunt style there; maybe that's because of where Red Cloak is emotionally.
(Not sure if that was Rich's intent, but it sure seems to fit).

[Peelee]

I find your "he's stuck in teenager mode" to fit my read of SoD and Red Cloak in general very well.
It strikes me as part of the baseline for this joke/insult from Xykon.
Xykon seems (to me) to be using a schoolyard taunt style there; maybe that's because of where Red Cloak is emotionally.
(Not sure if that was Rich's intent, but it sure seems to fit).

Wouldn't that equally apply to Xykon, and say that he's also being stuck in teenager mode, despite getting to what looks like venerable age? If anything, that should go to show that such a mentality is completely decoupled from aging.

[CriticalFailure]

That’s interesting. I interpreted it as more that at first he felt it was his responsibility and lacked anything else in life to motivate him.

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when Right-Eye asked him to stay in his village, offering an alternative that he could actually see, he decided to stay pretty quickly. Until X caught up with him. And after killing Right-Eye the plan seems to be the only thing keeping him from being overwhelmed with guilt and hopelessness.

[Keltest]

Wouldn't that equally apply to Xykon, and say that he's also being stuck in teenager mode, despite getting to what looks like venerable age? If anything, that should go to show that such a mentality is completely decoupled from aging.

Only if you assume that being a jerk and having a teen mentality are inherently coupled. Xykon was a petty, mean child who grew into a petty, mean teenager, who grew into a petty, cruel man. In his case, he really is just that awful.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I find your "he's stuck in teenager mode" to fit my read of SoD and Red Cloak in general very well.

I'm AfB, but isn't there a line from his brother along this lines explicitly? SOmehting about the cloak having got him stuck?

I wasn't expecting this to be "our reading" rather than canon.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I'm AfB, but isn't there a line from his brother along this lines explicitly? SOmehting about the cloak having got him stuck?

I wasn't expecting this to be "our reading" rather than canon.

Grey Wolf

While I do like the reading, and the idea that the Dark One literally wont let Redcloak move on, I kind of doubt that Rich would let Redcloak duck responsibility for what he did by having him be mentally manipulated for however many decades.

[Fyraltari]

It would be pretty disappointing if it turned out the Cloak had been mindcontrolling Red the entire time and that his personality so far was ‘‘fake’’ si to speak. I’m on the side of ‘‘The Mantle isn’t controlling him but it doesn’t help’’.

I will add that Redcloak has already lived over the natural goblin lifespan and still going strong which doesn’t help. He can literally put his whole life on indefinite hold for the plan, unlike Right-Eye who yearned for a family and therefore couldn’t afford to wait decades for the Plan to work.

It cannot help relating to his fellow goblins, either, as he can tell in all honesty to people who look like they could be his father ‘‘I was doing this long before you were a gleam inside your father’s eye, boy’’.

[Peelee]

Only if you assume that being a jerk and having a teen mentality are inherently coupled.

I agree, and similarly don't associate Redcloak's characterization to be inherently coupled to a teen mentality.

[PopeLinus1]

Maybe the crimson mantle doesn't prevent you from growing, but provides a mechanism that allows you to not grow, I mean after all Redcloak doesn't have to worry about getting older, so regardless of what the cloak actually does, I'm sure it would effect his maturity in some way.

[CriticalFailure]

Perhaps some aspects of his personality stopped developing when he put on the cloak while others, well mostly got worse, honestly.

[Keltest]

I agree, and similarly don't associate Redcloak's characterization to be inherently coupled to a teen mentality.

Not necessarily "a" teen mentality, but his teen mentality. Redcloak is still the same person he was as an angry and hurting teenager. I don't think he's a terrible person because he's still like a teen, but because he became locked into a period of his life where he was hurting, confused and directionless. I don't know that him being a full adult would have completely prevented it, but at the very least it wouldn't be nearly as easy for him to get so completely obsessed with this hurt he has.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While I do like the reading, and the idea that the Dark One literally wont let Redcloak move on, I kind of doubt that Rich would let Redcloak duck responsibility for what he did by having him be mentally manipulated for however many decades.

Nor am I. I still hold people responsible for their actions even if they are teens. The cloak, in my reading, isn't manipulating RC - the cloak would need to be a conscious actor for that, sort of like the One Ring, but it is not. It is a magical item that has a number of effects, including preventing RC from aging. In game terms, that means that RC never gets those wisdom bonuses from advancing age categories; in biological terms, it means he is still using the same teen brain he grew into. But it is still his brain and thus his responsibility.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

But maturity is time passing, events happening, and learning from the events. The only way he'd still have his same teen mentality would be if he was incapable of learning from events - which we have explicitly seen multiple times is not the case. Again, Redcloak is still an angsty teen the same way Ted Kaczynski was; not at all.

[Keltest]

Nor am I. I still hold people responsible for their actions even if they are teens. The cloak, in my reading, isn't manipulating RC - the cloak would need to be a conscious actor for that, sort of like the One Ring, but it is not. It is a magical item that has a number of effects, including preventing RC from aging. In game terms, that means that RC never gets those wisdom bonuses from advancing age categories; in biological terms, it means he is still using the same teen brain he grew into. But it is still his brain and thus his responsibility.

Grey Wolf

I guess I don't see the difference between "redcloak is unable to think effectively because an artifact is impairing his brain from growing into a complete and functional state" and "redcloak is unable to think clearly because an artifact is directly messing with his thoughts." It would be like saying that Durkon is responsible for what Greg did because it was his brain, just locked into a pattern of thinking that altered his behavior.

[CriticalFailure]

I mean, I don’t think being a teenager in itself is such a mental impediment as to absolve one from responsibility.

When considering life experiences it’s reasonable to say he hasn’t matured because of being isolated and devoted to the plan. For example in the area of normal social interactions not related to military command, villainous workplace politics, or orphaned little brother rearing.

[Peelee]

I mean, I don’t think being a teenager in itself is such a mental impediment as to absolve one from responsibility.

When considering life experiences it’s reasonable to say he hasn’t matured because of being isolated and devoted to the plan. For example in the area of normal social interactions not related to military command, villainous workplace politics, or orphaned little brother rearing.

Or a year's worth of living in a goblin metropolis and having daily interactions with goblinoids?

I think it's entirely unreasonable to say he hasn't matured for whatever reason, because I dispute that he hasn't matured.