What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

[B. Dandelion]

Redcloak might abandon Xykon if he thought Xykon were detrimental to the Plan. But he's too proud to realize that he's just digging himself in deeper in Xykon's service.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Redcloak killed his brother because Redcloak had invested his personal pride into Xykon, his own creation. Right-Eye threatened that pride. To Redcloak, Xykon and the Plan are inseparable. Yes, he's wrong. That's the point of Start of Darkness.

I don't think "pride" is the issue per se, more like "cowardice" and "guilt". Belkar has the right idea here.

Redcloak needs for all the people who died to have been martyrs to a holy cause. If the Plan was a mistake then they were just dead goblins, goblins that Redcloak himself led to ruin. He can't handle that kind of guilt. He has to keep believing that the Plan will make all those sacrifices worthwhile.

I have never read him as having invested personal pride in Xykon. Honestly it never even occurred to me to read it that way before, which makes it kind of interesting considering how long it's been.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

But Redcloak had clearly-defined reasons for killing Right-Eye to protect Xykon, the ones that Redcloak himself laid out (if Right-Eye's scheme failed, Xykon was likely to slaughter all the goblins at camp in retaliation), and the ones that Right-Eye more accurately saw (that Redcloak would be willing to throw good lives after bad in order to avoid accepting blame for all the previous deaths). The notion that Redcloak acted to protect his own creation wasn't ever suggested.

[Peelee]

Minor disagreement...

Redcloak...

Spoiler

Show

murdered his baby brother to protect THE PLAN. That it protects Xykon is secondary. It seems apparent to me by that time that Redcloak would ditch Xycon IF he thought there was a better alternative, but he doesn't.

And if Redcloak ever truly believed the plan would be better off if Xykon was destroyed, then i suspect he would immediately turn all his efforts to doing so.

I'm with Tomandtish. While he may have stuck with Xykon afterwards to justify his actions as necessary to himself, at the time of the decision making, he made the call based on the threat to the Plan, not Xykon. Until that moment Redcloak would have happily abandoned Xykon for another magic user if he thought he could have done so safely.

Whatever Reddie tells himself so he can sleep at night, I say. Self-delusion is a helluva drug.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think "pride" is the issue per se, more like "cowardice" and "guilt". Belkar has the right idea here.

Redcloak needs for all the people who died to have been martyrs to a holy cause. If the Plan was a mistake then they were just dead goblins, goblins that Redcloak himself led to ruin. He can't handle that kind of guilt. He has to keep believing that the Plan will make all those sacrifices worthwhile.

I have never read him as having invested personal pride in Xykon. Honestly it never even occurred to me to read it that way before, which makes it kind of interesting considering how long it's been.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

But Redcloak had clearly-defined reasons for killing Right-Eye to protect Xykon, the ones that Redcloak himself laid out (if Right-Eye's scheme failed, Xykon was likely to slaughter all the goblins at camp in retaliation), and the ones that Right-Eye more accurately saw (that Redcloak would be willing to throw good lives after bad in order to avoid accepting blame for all the previous deaths). The notion that Redcloak acted to protect his own creation wasn't ever suggested.

Yeah I agree with this take. Redcloak doesn’t seem to really care that much about pride; his inability to admit mistakes seems to be a lot more tied to guilt.

I think it also kind of ties back to questions of maturity. I get the impression that he accepted the duty of being high priest and executing the plan, but lacked the maturity and leadership experience and moral courage necessary. He was put into the position unexpectedly and never learned to deal with the responsibility, nor it seems did he have any preparation for doing so. In a way it seems to kind of be a bit of an inversion of the whole “chosen one” trope playing on the idea that giving that much responsibility to a teenager is honestly a terrible idea.

[Aveline]

I don't think "pride" is the issue per se, more like "cowardice" and "guilt". Belkar has the right idea here.

Redcloak needs for all the people who died to have been martyrs to a holy cause. If the Plan was a mistake then they were just dead goblins, goblins that Redcloak himself led to ruin. He can't handle that kind of guilt. He has to keep believing that the Plan will make all those sacrifices worthwhile.

I have never read him as having invested personal pride in Xykon. Honestly it never even occurred to me to read it that way before, which makes it kind of interesting considering how long it's been.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

But Redcloak had clearly-defined reasons for killing Right-Eye to protect Xykon, the ones that Redcloak himself laid out (if Right-Eye's scheme failed, Xykon was likely to slaughter all the goblins at camp in retaliation), and the ones that Right-Eye more accurately saw (that Redcloak would be willing to throw good lives after bad in order to avoid accepting blame for all the previous deaths). The notion that Redcloak acted to protect his own creation wasn't ever suggested.

That's what I call pride. He doesn't think of himself as cowardly or guilty because he's convinced himself his solution (being Xykon's lapdog) is best.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

I'm using the word "creation" a bit loosely, but the existence and threat of Xykon rests at Recloak's feet. Who made Xykon a lich? Redcloak. Who couldn't allow Xykon to be killed? Redcloak. He had ample opportunity to take his brother's advice - but he was too proud of his alliance with Xykon, and what he thought it meant for the Plan, to leave it.

Yeah I agree with this take. Redcloak doesn’t seem to really care that much about pride; his inability to admit mistakes seems to be a lot more tied to guilt.

I think it also kind of ties back to questions of maturity. I get the impression that he accepted the duty of being high priest and executing the plan, but lacked the maturity and leadership experience and moral courage necessary. He was put into the position unexpectedly and never learned to deal with the responsibility, nor it seems did he have any preparation for doing so. In a way it seems to kind of be a bit of an inversion of the whole “chosen one” trope playing on the idea that giving that much responsibility to a teenager is honestly a terrible idea.

That's what I call pride. He can't admit mistakes because he can't even see them, because he's obviously 100% correct and never ever ever makes a serious mistake.

[Keltest]

Whatever Reddie tells himself so he can sleep at night, I say. Self-delusion is a helluva drug.

I don't think youre wrong, I just think that's the point where the self delusion began. Heck, Redcloak DID happily abandon Xykon for a time, until Xykon came back to reclaim him.

[hroþila]

I don't think youre wrong, I just think that's the point where the self delusion began. Heck, Redcloak DID happily abandon Xykon for a time, until Xykon came back to reclaim him.

That's true, and I mostly agree with you. However, it should be noted that that happened at a time when Xykon had left without saying anything, and Redcloak didn't expect him to come back. That's important, IMO - whatever guilt or blame he felt could be transferred to Xykon for abandoning the Plan without giving him a choice.

[CriticalFailure]

I think we're talking about the same thing, but it seems odd to me to call avoiding responsibility/guilt pride. I think it's fair to say that he has some sense of pride going on in that he seems to always need to feel he has the situation under control and stuff, but it makes more sense to characterize most of it as being too cowardly and immature to deal with guilt and the taking responsibility part of leadership. That's less pride and more suppressed self-loathing.

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't think Redcloak has any pride in Xykon. He loathes him, he hates him. And he hates himself both for making him a lich, and needing him still. Every single time he talks about Xykon, it's with disdain or resentment. Whether to his brother, to fellow goblinoids, to Tsutsiko, etc. He calls Xykon a mistake, a tool to be manipulated, an ally of circumstance, etc. He regularly scolds Xykon directly, as well.

He dreams of the day that will make it all have been worth it, and he envisions Xykon as being an essential means to that end, but that doesn't reduce in any way the contempt he holds for him.

That's what I call pride. He doesn't think of himself as cowardly or guilty because he's convinced himself his solution (being Xykon's lapdog) is best.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

I'm using the word "creation" a bit loosely, but the existence and threat of Xykon rests at Recloak's feet. Who made Xykon a lich? Redcloak. Who couldn't allow Xykon to be killed? Redcloak. He had ample opportunity to take his brother's advice - but he was too proud of his alliance with Xykon, and what he thought it meant for the Plan, to leave it.

That's what I call pride. He can't admit mistakes because he can't even see them, because he's obviously 100% correct and never ever ever makes a serious mistake.

I don't call that pride.

Let's not forget he was drilled a holy mission into his head by his patron god himself. This isn't Miko making up all sorts of fantasies about what to do, it's a cleric with a godly artifact, a divine-given mission, and a daily confirmation to keep doing what he's doing.

There's never been indication that he's been doing any of this for personal gain. Yes, he's arrogant, but not to the point of hubris. He's putting himself in the face of danger, and in situations that overall are far from comfortable, for the sake of others (no matter how twisted that view of others may be).

If anything, we haven't seen a single other character in this strip accept so much humiliation as Redcloak has. Pride is really a bad adjective to describe him.

[Fyraltari]

*coughs**coughs*

[magic9mushroom]

You say "For all Right-Eye's (and Xykon's) bluster, Xykon never truly managed to break Redcloak." and I hear, "The theme of Start of Darkness was lost on me."

I'm saying Xykon's summation at the end of SoD, much as it may have been the climax of the book, may or may not have been accurate at the time and clearly isn't accurate by the end of book 5.

Xykon says a lot of things, and his accurate portrayal as having an inhuman Charisma means that most of those things will sound cool and compelling even to the audience. But he's not always right.

[Keltest]

I'm saying Xykon's summation at the end of SoD, much as it may have been the climax of the book, may or may not have been accurate at the time and clearly isn't accurate by the end of book 5.

Xykon says a lot of things, and his accurate portrayal as having an inhuman Charisma means that most of those things will sound cool and compelling even to the audience. But he's not always right.

While Xykon's control over Redcloak is clearly not as tight now as it was back in DCF, I think the general ideas he put forward still apply. Redcloak will not overtly act against Xykon or endanger his alliance with him until after The Plan is complete, and Redcloak is still broken on the inside.

[Kish]

I'm saying [...]

Yes, I know.

And I continue to think you're rejecting the theme of the entire book, not just the summary at the end, and that Redcloak, at the end of Book 5, is a lot more under Xykon's control than you think he is.

Feel free to restate it yet again if you really want to, but don't expect me to have a different reaction.

[CriticalFailure]

While Xykon's control over Redcloak is clearly not as tight now as it was back in DCF, I think the general ideas he put forward still apply. Redcloak will not overtly act against Xykon or endanger his alliance with him until after The Plan is complete, and Redcloak is still broken on the inside.

Xykon can keep Redcloak from blatantly defying him, but he can’t stop Redcloak from manipulating him and scheming against him. If Redcloak is delusional about how much he controls Xykon via manipulation and scheming, Xykon is delusional about how much he controls Redcloak through domination and emotional manipulation. While Redcloak wont abandon their alliance and won’t openly disobey him, Cumin is still unaware that the plan won’t benefit him at all, and Redcloak did manage to get him to sit around AC while he established a goblinoid state. That Xykon is able to use emotional manipulation and that Redcloak is broken inside are both because unlike Xykon, Redcloak does have emotions for others.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon ordering Tsukiko to look into the ritual and then lying to Redcloak about it is solid evidence that Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something. And he charmed the MitD to get back at Redcloak, just in case. He is much more aware of how their partnership works than Redcloak.

[CriticalFailure]

Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something; Redcloak knows Xykon is investigating. Neither of them trust the other.

[Kish]

If you look at the situation solely in terms of "who claims to be controlling whom," then Redcloak vs. Xykon is a wash.

If you look at the situation in terms of "who's getting what they want," then the current (not future) situation looks like all Xykon to me. He's working toward Redcloak's scheme, but that's literally what he asked for. He regularly grinds Redcloak into the dirt, kills everyone Redcloak claims to care about, and makes Redcloak complicit in it. Redcloak is counting on a future time when Xykon has been manipulated into performing the Dark One's ritual with him, which I don't believe has the slightest chance of actually happening in the comic. And if it never happens, Xykon has had decades of Redcloak being his obedient and horribly degraded slave while he got to have fun and increase his personal power, and it's cost him nothing he hadn't already lost the second he rose as a lich.

[CriticalFailure]

He's working toward Redcloak's scheme, but that's literally what he asked for.

He asked to use the snarl to rule the world, not to give the goblins' god a weapon.

He regularly grinds Redcloak into the dirt, kills everyone Redcloak claims to care about, and makes Redcloak complicit in it. Redcloak is counting on a future time when Xykon has been manipulated into performing the Dark One's ritual with him, which I don't believe has the slightest chance of actually happening in the comic. And if it never happens, Xykon has had decades of Redcloak being his obedient and horribly degraded slave while he got to have fun and increase his personal power, and it's cost him nothing he hadn't already lost the second he rose as a lich.

I agree that it won't end up happening in the comic; clearly the heroes are going to end up stopping it. I agree that Xykon is getting more out of the situation even though there's no chance of him actually using the snarl to rule the world.

[B. Dandelion]

Yeah I agree with this take. Redcloak doesn’t seem to really care that much about pride; his inability to admit mistakes seems to be a lot more tied to guilt.

I think it also kind of ties back to questions of maturity. I get the impression that he accepted the duty of being high priest and executing the plan, but lacked the maturity and leadership experience and moral courage necessary. He was put into the position unexpectedly and never learned to deal with the responsibility, nor it seems did he have any preparation for doing so. In a way it seems to kind of be a bit of an inversion of the whole “chosen one” trope playing on the idea that giving that much responsibility to a teenager is honestly a terrible idea.

Yes, a lot of it is how I read it, his immaturity is a factor. He neither sought the position nor was he prepared for it, he got in over his head almost immediately and not being able to cope with the fallout properly he fell into sunk cost reasoning quite early on. But since it's not his Plan, he's just following orders, it's not really his fault, he reasons. He will deliberately avoid questioning the wisdom of the Plan itself as it has become his only refuge against his otherwise crushing circumstances and sense of having failed his first and most important task ever given to him as an adult.

That's what I call pride. He doesn't think of himself as cowardly or guilty because he's convinced himself his solution (being Xykon's lapdog) is best.

I guess the word "pride" carries a somewhat narrower connotation to me. If "being convinced that one's solution to a current problem is best" is prideful, a lot of people are "proud" that I would have termed "confident" at most. Being boastful about it, convinced that the solution is better because of one's innate superiority, is more what I would think of.

A willingness to adopt a humiliating subservient position isn't something I would see as innately prideful either. A prideful person might (unhappily) do such a thing, but a humble person could as well (probably also unhappily, as being humble doesn't mean you necessarily enjoy being degraded).

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

I'm using the word "creation" a bit loosely, but the existence and threat of Xykon rests at Recloak's feet. Who made Xykon a lich? Redcloak. Who couldn't allow Xykon to be killed? Redcloak. He had ample opportunity to take his brother's advice - but he was too proud of his alliance with Xykon, and what he thought it meant for the Plan, to leave it.

Apologies but I really don't see what you're talking about. When was he was ever "proud" of the alliance or of Xykon's increased power? The fact that he was responsible for those things isn't in dispute, but that doesn't necessarily mean pride. He doesn't seem to affirmatively demonstrate anything I would associate with pride in those circumstances.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

I guess I dispute "ample opportunity" as well. Redcloak doesn't get a chance to break things off in any way that wouldn't carry their own drawbacks or major risks. He had ample opportunity to... stay imprisoned in a pit. Or join in an assassination attempt that was inherently quite risky, and turned out to be doomed. Pride can't really be isolated as the only possible factor here.

That's what I call pride. He can't admit mistakes because he can't even see them, because he's obviously 100% correct and never ever ever makes a serious mistake.

I think he views a lot of things as being mistakes. Certainly in the sense that if he had it to do over again he wouldn't make the same choices. He doesn't go on and on about his failures for the most part, it's true. Though he was visibly disgusted with himself for how he initially treated the hobgoblins.

If anything, we haven't seen a single other character in this strip accept so much humiliation as Redcloak has. Pride is really a bad adjective to describe him.

*coughs**coughs*

I think of Durkon as the most humble member of the cast, but it can be true that Durkon is more humble than Redcloak and also that Redcloak has endured more humiliation than Durkon has. Not that Durkon's circumstances have been enviable either, but...

[Aveline]

Here is my basic working definition. Pride: ignoring valid doubts and criticisms to protect an inflated self-image. You could call this a type of arrogance. This is what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud: he won't change his course of action because he's built his self-image around being the heroic savior of all goblinkind, but he's given Xykon the reins and ultimately hasn't advanced the Plan all that much. For Redcloak to change his plans would mean acknowledging that his current plans aren't working, and that would mean he's made several crucial, costly mistakes. And he just won't do that. That's what I call pride.

There is a second sense. Pride: satisfaction drawn from one's achievements. This isn't what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud.

I'm pretty sure we agree on everything but what "pride" means, though.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think of Durkon as the most humble member of the cast, but it can be true that Durkon is more humble than Redcloak and also that Redcloak has endured more humiliation than Durkon has. Not that Durkon's circumstances have been enviable either, but...

Yea, this.

Durkon doesn't have the happiest story, but it's all rainbows compared to Redcloak's. I'm also not sure which part of Durkon's story involves accepting humiliation, just taking it in without saying anything, or doing things he hates or repulses him because he was asked to or for a greater cause.

I never made any comments about anyone being humble or not.

Here is my basic working definition. Pride: ignoring valid doubts and criticisms to protect an inflated self-image. You could call this a type of arrogance. This is what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud: he won't change his course of action because he's built his self-image around being the heroic savior of all goblinkind, but he's given Xykon the reins and ultimately hasn't advanced the Plan all that much. For Redcloak to change his plans would mean acknowledging that his current plans aren't working, and that would mean he's made several crucial, costly mistakes. And he just won't do that. That's what I call pride.

There is a second sense. Pride: satisfaction drawn from one's achievements. This isn't what I mean when I say Redcloak is proud.

I'm pretty sure we agree on everything but what "pride" means, though.

He literally is the hero of goblinkind, the avatar of their patron deity. But he's never boasted about this.

You are conflating pride with denial, but intend it in the sens of hubris.

He doesn't fail to acknowledge his failings because he thinks he's /too good/ to fail. That would be pride/hubris. He fails because he can't cope with the ramifications of his failures. That's not pride/hubris at all.

[Aveline]

He literally is the hero of goblinkind, the avatar of their patron deity. But he's never boasted about this.

You are conflating pride with denial, but intend it in the sens of hubris.

He doesn't fail to acknowledge his failings because he thinks he's /too good/ to fail. That would be pride/hubris. He fails because he can't cope with the ramifications of his failures. That's not pride/hubris at all.

This is completely a semantic debate at this point - but I think denial and hubris are both forms of pride. If he subconsciously fears the notion that Xykon is bad for goblins and the Plan (which he totally is) there are other things he could be doing about it than serving Xykon. His denial about the situation he's created, and the hubris to keep going, is part of that umbrella I call pride, because it stems from an unwillingness to see oneself in a poor light.

Again, this isn't a substantive disagreement. I said "Redcloak is proud" as a counter to the idea that the cloak is stunting him. Obviously, I do not agree with

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Right-Eye's finer point that Redcloak was being deprived of perspective by the Crimson Mantle; he could still be with his community and learn about their personal struggles, if he so chose

. If we both agree it's his own personality that's gotten him into this position, then really we just think of the same concept somewhat differently. We're just splitting hairs here.

[Peelee]

This is completely a semantic debate at this point - but I think denial and hubris are both forms of pride.

Where werecyou when I was discussing the sins in the Shazam! thread?

[CriticalFailure]

Where werecyou when I was discussing the sins in the Shazam! thread?

I don't know what a Shazam is but I'm sure learning would be worth it to understand that undoubtedly exciting discourse.

[Aveline]

Where werecyou when I was discussing the sins in the Shazam! thread?

The what and the where? Shazam, the smartphone app for computationally recognizing songs in real time?

[understatement]

(A DC film).

If he's afraid to acknowledge his mistakes, wouldn't it be filed under "cowardice"?

[Peelee]

I don't know what a Shazam is but I'm sure learning would be worth it to understand that undoubtedly exciting discourse.

The what and the where? Shazam, the smartphone app for computationally recognizing songs in real time?

Spoiler: Shazam!

Show

Fun fact, he's the original Captain Marvel. He's only allowed to be called that in comics, IIRC, but I'm amused both Captain Marvels have movie or art the same time.

[CriticalFailure]

(A DC film).

If he's afraid to acknowledge his mistakes, wouldn't it be filed under "cowardice"?

Yeah, I consider his fear and inability to cope with the guilt to be cowardice and immaturity. I guess the concepts of "ego injury" or "moral injury" come into play maybe? idk much about those topics.

[magic9mushroom]

Yes, I know.

And I continue to think you're rejecting the theme of the entire book, not just the summary at the end, and that Redcloak, at the end of Book 5, is a lot more under Xykon's control than you think he is.

Feel free to restate it yet again if you really want to, but don't expect me to have a different reaction.

Actually, what you say here is not the same and not as offensive to me as what you said the last time. Missing something and rejecting it are not the same, and it is nice that you are no longer accusing me of the former.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is completely a semantic debate at this point - but I think denial and hubris are both forms of pride. If he subconsciously fears the notion that Xykon is bad for goblins and the Plan (which he totally is) there are other things he could be doing about it than serving Xykon. His denial about the situation he's created, and the hubris to keep going, is part of that umbrella I call pride, because it stems from an unwillingness to see oneself in a poor light.

Again, this isn't a substantive disagreement. I said "Redcloak is proud" as a counter to the idea that the cloak is stunting him. Obviously, I do not agree with

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Right-Eye's finer point that Redcloak was being deprived of perspective by the Crimson Mantle; he could still be with his community and learn about their personal struggles, if he so chose

. If we both agree it's his own personality that's gotten him into this position, then really we just think of the same concept somewhat differently. We're just splitting hairs here.

He did choose to stick with his community. And then Xykon came back. And made it clear that there were only two kinds of goblins,

Spoiler: SoD

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those that serve him, and those that get brutally murdered by him

.

Also,

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Redcloak did try to threaten Xykon into submission before, but was made to realize that he's severely regret the betrayal

.

At this point, Redcloak has no choice but to work with Xykon, because he's not strong enough to defeat him, and there's never been any indication of him having access to a substitute arcane spellcaster.

The only way he could hope to kill Xykon at this point, would be to get Oona on board, and backstab Xykon in the caves, in the middle of an epic fight. But aside from the fact that would remove his strongest arcane spellcaster, the odds of successfully pulling that off are abysmal. The monster in the darkness is enchanted to turn on him if he does, which he may or may not know by now. Also just walking up to Oona and hitting her up with "hey, by the way, want to backstab my epic level buddy over here in the middle of what would be, to us, a life-threatening encounter?" Eh... That's asking her to take a huge risk for no obvious gain. That's also a huge risk to himself.

Making Xykon a Lich might have been a bad call

Spoiler: SoD

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though honestly, beats living for all of eternity in a cave, depending on how exactly him Crimson Mantle aging effect works

, but the fact remains that he's stuck with that now.

He can't kill Xykon. He can't run away from Xykon. His options are pretty limited. If you really think he has a ton of good options he could turn to, that haven't already been shown to not be workable whatsoever, then feel free to present them. Because in SoD, between him and his brother, it's been fairly well demonstrated that options aren't something he's got a lot of. And in the main comic, it's been shown again and again that he makes the most of what little margin he has, such as lying to Xykon in order to extend their stay in Azure City (allowing it to be defended long enough for it to become robust enough to pursue without them).

[Aveline]

He can't kill Xykon. He can't run away from Xykon. His options are pretty limited. If you really think he has a ton of good options he could turn to, that haven't already been shown to not be workable whatsoever, then feel free to present them. Because in SoD, between him and his brother, it's been fairly well demonstrated that options aren't something he's got a lot of. And in the main comic, it's been shown again and again that he makes the most of what little margin he has, such as lying to Xykon in order to extend their stay in Azure City (allowing it to be defended long enough for it to become robust enough to pursue without them).

He had ample opportunity to destroy Xykon's phylactery in the main books, especially at the end of book 1. He's been supplying Xykon with tactics and strategies, which he doesn't have to do. When he recognized the Order as a serious threat to Xykon in book 5, he tried to kill them over Xykon's own objections. Redcloak's situation is not ideal but it's not totally hopeless either, and Redcloak just keeps digging himself deeper because he's convinced it's the right thing to do.

Even if Redcloak thought of Xykon as some kind of problem, all he's done about that is hide the phylactery, which is a feeble grasp at something he already had.