Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Geno9999]

Some thoughts on the buffs now that I've calmed down (and returned from work.)

Gloop Sprayer: like others said, this doesn't really solve the problem that this is just too slow to work consistently. Which is fine, because if this did work consistently, Druid would be terrifying.

Mulchmuncher: Probably doesn't change much in the long run, but I'd say this gets a bit better than it used to compared against Sea Giant. Mulchmuncher better at retaliating after board wipes, while Sea Giant both rewards you having a big board and punishes your opponent having a big board. Not a bad option for Token Druid at all really.

Necromechanic: Well. Mech Hunter is going to be king. Even getting one or two extra Goblin Bomb triggers can decide a game. The reduced cost makes this easier to play alongside a magnetized Spider Bomb really helps.

Flark's Boom-Zooka: Fun card, cost reduction makes it easier to play when it has value with the Deathrattle Minions you put in your deck but haven't draw yet. I'm gonna have fun with this one, but only just that, a fun and niche card.

Unexpected Results: Went from "Not worth the cost" to "Value?" We might see this in the Spell/Summoner Mage hybrids, along with your usual Spell Damage package, just to get some medium threats out when Mountain Giants can't be found.

Luna's Pocket Galaxy: Dang, if only Mage got Storm Chaser. Though Mage has decent draws (Arcane Intelligence, Book of Specters, Stargazer Luna,) I'm going to agree with Zevox, Tempo doesn't want 5 mana do nothing, and Combo wants it's combo pieces in the deck for this to do its job.

Crystology: HOO BOY did I think of something terrifying on the way to work; this is now Odd Paladin's OUT OF MY JUNGLE!!! Un'goro belongs to the Titans! Stonehill Defender tutor. Can easily be swapped between this and Divine Favor, depending on the local meta is Aggro or Control heavy (Crystology better for fetching Righteous Protectors and Stonehill Defender versus Divine Favor's full reload against Control Decks.) Thankfully, that's only in Wild. In Standard, I can see this in a very similar function; Immortal Prelate and Acolyte of Pain tutors. Could also see some use in Mech decks with Glowtron and/or Bronze Gatekeeper, but I'm not too sure Kangor's Endless Army decks would consider it.

Glowstone Technician: Huh, now it's comparable to Dragon Speaker, but isn't locked to a specific tribe. The problem is that currently Paladin doesn't have that great of a draw engine to get consistent mileage out of either, but this could work in a slightly bigger range of decks than Dragon Speaker could.

Extra Arms: Probably sees play in Silence Priest, or even in a general Divine Spirit + Inner Fire Priest. 3/5 Northshire Cleric on turn 2 sounds terrifying at least.

Cloning Device: meh. Not that good in the first place, and hard to fit in current Priest decks. Might matter if Thief Priest gets support but that's next expansion at the soonest.

Pogo-Hopper: Didn't occur to me that this would work with Magic Carpet until Psyren pointed out, and that just might be the thing Pogo Rogue needs: a way to counter aggro decks from stampeding it before it can get the ball rolling with the giant Pogo-Hoppers.

Violet Haze: Not seeing it getting played. Deathrattle Rogue was more or less a combo/value deck, getting immediate value off of things like Mechanical Whelp or Carnivorous Cube. There is a lot of Deathrattles in the game, and I don't think getting random ones to trigger with Necrium cards will work.

The Storm Bringer: ...Huh. Might get some use in the Thunderhead/Murloc decks, but I'm not sure it's worth putting in the decklist.

Thunderhead: already seen some play in Overload/Murloc decks, this being slightly sturdier makes the vs. Aggro matchup much better.

Spirit Bomb: I don't know what Zoo Decks Rodin had been fighting against, because right now this card isn't even showing up on decklists on HSreplay. At 1 mana though? Could see some Zoo decks swapping out Soulfire to this, though it does lose the face finisher. An issue I had with trying to build and pilot a Pain Warlock deck is that it's very hard to get the bonuses of Nethersoul Buster or Duskbat consistently, especially with the rotation taking Kobold Librarian. Spirit Bomb being a cheap activator does make the deck look a bit more appealing now though, going to have to try it out.

Dr. Morrigan: Looks... less bad? She's still bad, but now the deck building limitation of trying to get value with her is lowered and therefore easier.

Security Rover: has some potential to get some decklist inclusion? I'm not entirely sure the +1 Health matters much except against Token Zoo decks, but that just might be the targeted deck to bring out the Control Warrior after Tempo Rogue drops popularity. Outside of experimentation, I don't see this card finding a permanent home in decklists.

Beryllum Nullifier: Okay, seriously guys, is +1 Attack really going to make a difference for this card? What makes this card right on the edge of "Not good enough to actually put in my deck, but can't complain if this shows up in my discovery pool" had nothing to do with its attack, but rather its Health and Can't Be Targeted versus it's cost. It's a 4/8 for 7, and I don't think Control Warrior has the room for this clunky minion outside of the Omega Assemblies and Doctor Boom's Hero Power.



And after all that, thoughts on SN1P-SN4P: Easy include in my ZOO.EXE Warlock deck, being a Harvest Golem at worst (which I already run 2 of) but gets even better on 6 and 9+ mana turns, with the unique combination of Echo and Magnetic. And thank you Psyren for that hot tip on Combo Priest, gonna have fun with that one.

[Zevox]

Oh, we haven't talked about SN1P-SN4P because we were excited over the buffs. Turns out there is a turn 5 OTK with that card, in Priest, so I would expect it (or at least the interaction below) to be nerfed. Spoilered for those who want to figure it out on their own:

Spoiler

Show

1) Get a mech that sticks to the board by turn 4. Coppertail Imposter is the card of choice for this due to its 4 health and stealth, but any mech will do really.

2) Turn 5 play Reckless Experimenter. Your SN1P-SN4P now costs zero - and so do all its Echo copies, because they have deathrattle just like the original.

3) Magnetize your zero-cost SN1P-SN4Ps to your Coppertail NI times, swing for face.


Presumably this never came up before because this new legendary is the only card with both Echo and Magnetic to be printed, and Priest has one of the few cards that can provides a permanent cost reduction to an Echo card. Of course, within that knowledge we have the means of fixing it too.

I guess something like this could have come up before with Glinda Crowskin - but who in the heck was going to play her anyway?

Oh, ****. I knew the thought of magnetic + echo on a card that galvanizer could discount already seemed scary, but at least that requires some more setup and still cost 1 mana per casting (and maybe the echoed copies wouldn't keep the discount, not sure on that). But yeah, with Reckless Experimenter it's clearly busted and they'll need to change something. Hopefully before it comes out - surely there's no way they could see people point out this combo and think it might be at all okay.

(Also, it occurs to me: this is a new card with the echo keyword. And it's being retroactively inserted into Boomsday, not Witchwood. Consistency, what's that?)

[Psyren]

Yeah the lack of consistency is a bit annoying. Like Witch's Brew not having Echo, and you could just give Extra Arms Twinspell now Blizzard, we wouldn't complain!

[otakuryoga]

i currently have the sickest deck i have seen
about to stomp boss 7 and then 8

shaman snakey hero..evolve power
1st treasure: shuffle two copies of played minions into deck
so drafted around that..lots of removal to get me to where im playing good/big minions
2nd treasure: elder taggawagg-- 3 mana 4/4 flamestrike the enemy deathrattle shuffle him back in
tavern card always start with taggawagg in hand
now where it went over the top sick
3rd treasure: start with random weapon at +1/+1
draft box with Stalagg and Fuegan!
i see nothing but 11's... 7/4 4/7 11/11
oh i guess the 3rd pick in the box was decent too..Sylvanas


just for gits and shiggles i also have
Faceless Manipulator
Cairne
Walking Fountain
Ysera
Nzoth
Yogg

i would put this deck up against anything
and i still have another round to get upgrades

[Psyren]

I went 8/8 normal on my first run, followed by a 6/8 heroic (that token druid boss that makes taunt treants is terrible.)

Does everyone have to start with Rakanishu/Mage or was that just me?

Unexpected Results: Went from "Not worth the cost" to "Value?" We might see this in the Spell/Summoner Mage hybrids, along with your usual Spell Damage package, just to get some medium threats out when Mountain Giants can't be found.

Indeed - 3 mana for two ~2/2s is good on its own, not to mention the dream of curving into this from Khadgar for ~6/6 on turn 3.

Crystology: HOO BOY did I think of something terrifying on the way to work; this is now Odd Paladin's OUT OF MY JUNGLE!!! Un'goro belongs to the Titans! Stonehill Defender tutor. Can easily be swapped between this and Divine Favor, depending on the local meta is Aggro or Control heavy (Crystology better for fetching Righteous Protectors and Stonehill Defender versus Divine Favor's full reload against Control Decks.) Thankfully, that's only in Wild. In Standard, I can see this in a very similar function; Immortal Prelate and Acolyte of Pain tutors. Could also see some use in Mech decks with Glowtron and/or Bronze Gatekeeper, but I'm not too sure Kangor's Endless Army decks would consider it.

Kangor/Mech Paladin absolutely uses Crystology. You covered the Glowtron and Gatekeeper but you forgot Skaterbot, which transforms your giant mechs into removal (both initially and post-Kangor). The decklist I use also packs Kangor himself, who can (combined with a fat Ziliax) easily undo an aggro deck's entire early game - Crystology fetches him too.

Glowstone Technician: Huh, now it's comparable to Dragon Speaker, but isn't locked to a specific tribe. The problem is that currently Paladin doesn't have that great of a draw engine to get consistent mileage out of either, but this could work in a slightly bigger range of decks than Dragon Speaker could.

See above - Crystology into Glowstone is even easier now. Prismatic works well in this deck too because most of your spells and creatures are cheap - so that's plenty of draw.

And after all that, thoughts on SN1P-SN4P: Easy include in my ZOO.EXE Warlock deck, being a Harvest Golem at worst (which I already run 2 of) but gets even better on 6 and 9+ mana turns, with the unique combination of Echo and Magnetic. And thank you Psyren for that hot tip on Combo Priest, gonna have fun with that one.

I'll be VERY surprised if that makes it to live - but if it does, hey, I already have experimenter due to my Mecha'thun deck...

[Resileaf]

Does everyone have to start with Rakanishu/Mage or was that just me?

As far as I know, you start mage, hunter and shaman unlocked.

[Zevox]

As far as I know, you start mage, hunter and shaman unlocked.

Only if you buy the second wing. Anyone with just the first only has Mage.

[Resileaf]

Only if you buy the second wing. Anyone with just the first only has Mage.

Aah, that's why. I had unlocked the second wing before checking the first one.

Not that I've played any other hero than mage yet. I'm trying to complete the first wing with every hero power and deck.

[Geno9999]

Here's the thing we don't know about SN1P-SN4P: animation time. For all we could know, it could have a 4+ second overdramatic animation of it rising out the water, nevermind the extra time it takes for it to get added back into your hand.

But beside that, I did a small test: Magnetize bypasses Reckless Experimenter's passive effect. I say that needs a major adjustment, because beyond surviving the initial burst, now you need something to remove the Giant Crab-Squirrel.

[Resileaf]

Here's the thing we don't know about SN1P-SN4P: animation time. For all we could know, it could have a 4+ second overdramatic animation of it rising out the water, nevermind the extra time it takes for it to get added back into your hand.

But beside that, I did a small test: Magnetize bypasses Reckless Experimenter's passive effect. I say that needs a major adjustment, because beyond surviving the initial burst, now you need something to remove the Giant Crab-Squirrel.

Well I'm doubly hoping they fix this ahead of time, because I first thought "Well I guess people are going to run way more taunts now" but now that doesn't even apply because the minion is still going to be alive by the end of the turn.

[Zevox]

But beside that, I did a small test: Magnetize bypasses Reckless Experimenter's passive effect. I say that needs a major adjustment, because beyond surviving the initial burst, now you need something to remove the Giant Crab-Squirrel.

Well. Yeah, definitely needs some changing, either to Experimenter or SN1P-SN4P. (Incidentally, am I the only one who hates that name? The numbers in place of letters, the phrase it's trying to spell... ugh.)

On another note, this week's Brawl is the auto-curve one - you draw a 1 mana card on turn 1, 2 mana on turn 2, etc. I made a Shaman deck that curves out into a guaranteed turn 8 Hagatha, then just drops big minions (most of the deck is 6, 7, and 9 drops) and gets free spells with them. My first game I wound up turning a board of Onyxia tokens into random legendaries with a Stormbringer and getting lethal off a Baron Geddon that resulted. Though I may have made a mistake making my 1-drop Sludge Slurper, the overload screws with the curve, and not all of the lackeys are guaranteed to be a strong turn 2 play (+1 attack and rush...). Might want to consider swapping that for a neutral 1 drop if I play the Brawl more.

[Rodin]

Well I'm doubly hoping they fix this ahead of time, because I first thought "Well I guess people are going to run way more taunts now" but now that doesn't even apply because the minion is still going to be alive by the end of the turn.

As I've seen pointed out, that doesn't matter (nor does whether the Coppertail Imposter sticks matter). It's a 5-mana, 2 card combo. It sits in your hand until your opponent doesn't have a taunt, and you have a mech on board at the start of your turn. Any mech. Mech-a-Roo would do. The instant you can attack face with a mech, you add infinity damage to it and murder them.

It's like how you used to play around 20 damage from-hand combos from Warlock or Druid, only way easier to pull off and you can't play around it.

I dunno what they do to fix it though. Probably nerf Priest, since it's been about 3 expansions since they've had a consistent theme or good cards in general.

[Manticoran]

As I've seen pointed out, that doesn't matter (nor does whether the Coppertail Imposter sticks matter). It's a 5-mana, 2 card combo. It sits in your hand until your opponent doesn't have a taunt, and you have a mech on board at the start of your turn. Any mech. Mech-a-Roo would do. The instant you can attack face with a mech, you add infinity damage to it and murder them.

It's like how you used to play around 20 damage from-hand combos from Warlock or Druid, only way easier to pull off and you can't play around it.

I dunno what they do to fix it though. Probably nerf Priest, since it's been about 3 expansions since they've had a consistent theme or good cards in general.

I'd just make it so Echo cards don't interact with the Priest card. I can't think of a situation you'd ever want that to happen anyway.

[Resileaf]

As I've seen pointed out, that doesn't matter (nor does whether the Coppertail Imposter sticks matter). It's a 5-mana, 2 card combo. It sits in your hand until your opponent doesn't have a taunt, and you have a mech on board at the start of your turn. Any mech. Mech-a-Roo would do. The instant you can attack face with a mech, you add infinity damage to it and murder them.

It's like how you used to play around 20 damage from-hand combos from Warlock or Druid, only way easier to pull off and you can't play around it.

Which is why I said 'doubly'. It's already gamebreaking in its original version, now it's doubly gamebreaking.

[Geno9999]

Which is why I said 'doubly'. It's already gamebreaking in its original version, now it's doubly gamebreaking.

This is also why I'm pointing out that we don't know the animation. On paper, Snip Snap (yeah I'm just gonna not bother with the numbers for letters in the future) makes a Infinity/Infinity Mech, so this combo will just instagib just about any of the old Solo Adventure Bosses. But if there's a significant animation delay, we're "only" fighting probably a +10/+15 mech.

[Anarion]

I don't think the infinite Snip-Snap is all that game-breaking. It's a combo that requires two specific cards in your deck, one of which is a 1-of. It takes 7 mana, an active mech on the board, and your opponent doesn't have a taunt in play (or an extra card to get through it on your end). Priest lacks tutoring for one of the cards and the "draw your whole deck" style is very vulnerable to aggro and risks killing off your own board if you're using the pyromancer plus acolyte thing.

[Resileaf]

I don't think the infinite Snip-Snap is all that game-breaking. It's a combo that requires two specific cards in your deck, one of which is a 1-of. It takes 7 mana, an active mech on the board, and your opponent doesn't have a taunt in play (or an extra card to get through it on your end). Priest lacks tutoring for one of the cards and the "draw your whole deck" style is very vulnerable to aggro and risks killing off your own board if you're using the pyromancer plus acolyte thing.

It's a combo where the moment you have the two cards in your hand and a mech on the board, you have won. It can potentially be accomplished as soon as turn 5. The only way to stop it is to never allow a single minion to stay on the board, including some who might be stealthed.

Feels pretty gamebreaking to me.

[Seerow]

It's a combo where the moment you have the two cards in your hand and a mech on the board, you have won. It can potentially be accomplished as soon as turn 5. The only way to stop it is to never allow a single minion to stay on the board, including some who might be stealthed.

Feels pretty gamebreaking to me.

A taunt will also stop it.

In practice it's similar to Divine Spirit/Inner Fire, but requires a mech on board rather than any high health minion. It may be slightly more consistent, but I am willing to wait to see it in play before calling it too OP.

[Rodin]

A taunt will also stop it.

In practice it's similar to Divine Spirit/Inner Fire, but requires a mech on board rather than any high health minion. It may be slightly more consistent, but I am willing to wait to see it in play before calling it too OP.

Divine Spirit/Inner Fire isn't lethal from 30 damage from turn 5, unless the minion is specifically Mountain Giant - which itself is difficult for Priest to play on turn 4. It's also "just" a 30-ish damage combo, instead of "literally infinite". There also isn't a 4-mana high-health stealth minion to enable the combo - in fact, I'm struggling to think of any naturally high health stealth minions, which means doing extra buffs before it becomes truly dangerous. Realistically, Priest has to play a minion on the board, and not just have it stick but have it not take damage. You can play around Divine Spirit/Inner Fire. That's one of the reasons why the combo has always been less popular than Velen/Mind Blast shenanigans.

Again, the scenario we are talking about is "from turn 5 onwards, you never let a Priest Mech of ANY quality live for a turn, or potentially die". Better hope your Taunt is Forbidden Words proof (which means greater than 5 attack). It also works with Mass Hysteria - if the Taunt dies and one of your minions survives, you win on the spot.

When the response of the pro players upon hearing about it is hysterical laughter, I'm inclined to trust their instincts. This slipped through testing because it's a special release and there's no way Blizzard knew about it. Now that they know, I'll be amazed if they let it go ahead because they're going to be hit by a massive backlash.

[Psyren]

Divine Spirit/Inner Fire isn't lethal from 30 damage from turn 5, unless the minion is specifically Mountain Giant - which itself is difficult for Priest to play on turn 4. It's also "just" a 30-ish damage combo, instead of "literally infinite". There also isn't a 4-mana high-health stealth minion to enable the combo - in fact, I'm struggling to think of any naturally high health stealth minions, which means doing extra buffs before it becomes truly dangerous.

The only one that comes to mind is a silenced Harbinger Celestia (6 health on turn 4), but that never ended up being a big deal in Big Priest either.

By the way, I was wondering - if you silence her after she transforms, does she change back?

[Zevox]

I don't think the infinite Snip-Snap is all that game-breaking. It's a combo that requires two specific cards in your deck, one of which is a 1-of. It takes 7 mana, an active mech on the board, and your opponent doesn't have a taunt in play (or an extra card to get through it on your end). Priest lacks tutoring for one of the cards and the "draw your whole deck" style is very vulnerable to aggro and risks killing off your own board if you're using the pyromancer plus acolyte thing.

A taunt will also stop it.

In practice it's similar to Divine Spirit/Inner Fire, but requires a mech on board rather than any high health minion. It may be slightly more consistent, but I am willing to wait to see it in play before calling it too OP.

You can't be serious. This would be the most overpowered thing in the history of the game if they let it go through. A two card combo that costs only 5 mana and is instant death as long as there is any mech on the board - and mechs that are difficult to remove very much exist, both via deathrattles that spawn more mechs (Mecharoo, Harvest Golem, Replicating Menace, Mechanical Whelp, Safeguard) and stealth (Coppertail Imposter), two of which even conveniently curve into this combo perfectly.

And while a taunt can theoretically stop it, don't kid yourself that that's any balancing factor. We all know there's plenty of ways around taunt in this game - and Priest in particular has one of the easiest, a 0 mana Silence spell, so a taunt could still be bypassed on-curve by them. Besides which, even Wall Priest couldn't keep a taunt in the combo's way forever.

And it's a hell of a lot better than Divine Spirit + Inner Fire. It requires fewer cards and a much less difficult condition (having any mech on the board versus having a sufficiently high-health minion on the board, which means the opponent has to clear all mechs always, where with Divine Spirit + Inner Fire just damaging a minion can be a way to play around it). Plus the individual combo pieces are more useful outside of the combo to boot, just for kicks, not that that would ever matter since the combo is so good you'd always just hold it.

[Nerocite]

The only one that comes to mind is a silenced Harbinger Celestia (6 health on turn 4), but that never ended up being a big deal in Big Priest either.

By the way, I was wondering - if you silence her after she transforms, does she change back?

Silence doesn't undo transformations.

This weeks brawl is pretty fun, I had some luck with Mechadin, Kangor's on 7 is nuts.

[Psyren]

Silence doesn't undo transformations.

Ugh - so you have to silence it in advance to avoid the enemy turning it into a lackey, which removes the stealth from it, defeating the purpose. Great...

[Rodin]

Harbinger Celestia is still the biggest "WTH?" card I have ever seen Blizzard release. It doesn't counter anything, it doesn't support a deck type, there are no combos with it, and the card by itself is blatantly terrible. And it's a Legendary! I just don't get what Blizzard was thinking, other than "we're short a Legendary and release day is coming up".

[Spore]

It seemed Celestia was meant to be this "I counter the enemy's big combo piece by stealing it for myself" card. It just can be played around so easily. At this point I feel it is a card best played in the non existent Silence Priest deck because 5/6 for 4 is good value.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, but 5/6 for 3 is better, and I dunno if you need an extra for +1 cost.

[Resileaf]

Blizz has stated that they have printed some cards for the meme material. Harbinger Celestia would be such a card.

[Rodin]

Blizz has stated that they have printed some cards for the meme material. Harbinger Celestia would be such a card.

I would have said that meme cards are more things like Yogg-Saron, Academic Espionage, or Pogo-Hopper. Build-around cards that were never likely to be good enough to see play, but which are still fun to play with and cause funny moments or get people inspired to do something a little off-beat.

Harbinger Celestia is none of those things. It doesn't encourage building a deck to take advantage of it, it doesn't cause any wacky random effects, and it doesn't incentivize a different style of play. About the best meme potential is that it's a bad card to generate as a random minion.

No, I think what happened is similar to what (is believed to have) happened with Boom's Scheme. They had a different effect on the card or a different card entirely, and then something broke with the card that they were intending to use. They didn't have anything ready to go, so they threw together an intentionally bad card to put into the expansion.

[Resileaf]

Unrelatedly, Moon Priestess Cici is adorable and I want to give her headpats.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but 5/6 for 3 is better, and I dunno if you need an extra for +1 cost.

Agreed. Still, it would be completely fine if silencing it allowed you to revert whatever the opponent changed it into.

No, I think what happened is similar to what (is believed to have) happened with Boom's Scheme. They had a different effect on the card or a different card entirely, and then something broke with the card that they were intending to use. They didn't have anything ready to go, so they threw together an intentionally bad card to put into the expansion.

That's sad if true. She was definitely someone's only legendary from the set at some point.

Unrelatedly, Moon Priestess Cici is adorable and I want to give her headpats.

Link? Google turns up nothing for this character.