Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Rynjin]

I like Elise has a built in combo deck but it can be annoying to do. Firing 300 moonfires at the final boss was so boring and time consuming.

I believe you're meant to pick up some spell damage along the way for a deck like that.

[Zevox]

So, we now have the full list of Wild cards that will be returning to standard for the October event. There's a lot of strong choices that make sense as picks if you want to see them have a real impact on the meta, for sure, including Emperor Thaurissan, Sylvanas, Mysterious Challenger and Avenge, and Flamewaker. Plus Quest Rogue gets a bit of an extra push with Shaku and Swashburgler being added to its repertoire.

And then there's a few that just make me go "wait, why?" Most notably Renounce Darkness, Astral Communion, and Lock and Load. Those all suck - they had no meta impact in the past, and there's little to no reason to think they would now. Maybe Hunter having more spell-heavy decks these days could give Lock and Load a niche, possibly, if they're lucky. I can't even give Renounce Darkness or Astral Communion that much though, they're just inherently terrible. Why bother bringing those back? It's not even like they're worried about making already strong decks better there, Druid is currently all Quest as far as I've heard, and there's not a lot in Wild that deck wants (I know, I tried to make a Wild version of it at one point), while Warlock is Zoo or nothing, and they are bringing back Imp Gang Boss for that, and Hunter is getting Call of the Wild.

Oh, and also, there's other event stuff, including three weeks worth of new Brawls (two of them are more Dungeon Run... ), Dual Class arenas, a couple of bundles, and some new "legendary quests" that will hand out either packs of large sums of gold once a week during the event. No word yet on when the Wild cards returning to standard event actually happens in all of this though.

[Rynjin]

I've been pondering some of those picks for several days.

Lock and Load I'm excited for; I already tried to do a Spell Damage Burn hunter last expansion, and Lock and Load might push that over the top.

Renounce Darkness...maybe works with Quest Warlock? I can see experimentation at least.

Astral Communion though...I don't even know. Every time I try to think of a way it can be used I then go "Oh yeah. It discards your hand."

...Gonk Druid OTK?

[Zevox]

...why would Renounce Darkness have any synergy with Quest Warlock? I don't see any connection there whatsoever. The loss of the Warlock hero power and any Plot Twists would seriously hurt your ability to complete the Quest at all.

[Rynjin]

...why would Renounce Darkness have any synergy with Quest Warlock? I don't see any connection there whatsoever. The loss of the Warlock hero power and any Plot Twists would seriously hurt your ability to complete the Quest at all.

I forgot it replaced the Hero Power so I was banking on it giving you 0 mana whatever class cards.

[Zevox]

I forgot it replaced the Hero Power so I was banking on it giving you 0 mana whatever class cards.

Even if it didn't swap the hero power, without Plot Twist it's really not a practical quest. And getting 0 mana random class cards is typically going to be worse than getting 0 mana cards that you put in a constructed deck in the first place, I would expect.

[Rynjin]

Even if it didn't swap the hero power, without Plot Twist it's really not a practical quest. And getting 0 mana random class cards is typically going to be worse than getting 0 mana cards that you put in a constructed deck in the first place, I would expect.

I mean you...don't need to play it on curve.

I was still wrong, but "you can't complete the quest" isn't the reason.

[Zevox]

I mean you...don't need to play it on curve.

I was still wrong, but "you can't complete the quest" isn't the reason.

By design Renounce Darkness is a card that encourages you to play it as early as possible, to get as much benefit as you can out of the mana discount it provides. Which is really the only advantage it offers. The longer you wait to play it, the weaker it gets, and it's already not strong to begin with.

[Stevesciguy]

I believe that the wild cards event begins on the 8th

[Zevox]

I believe that the wild cards event begins on the 8th

The announcement explicitly states that they'll tell us when the Wild Cards event happens at some other point in the future ("More details will be shared, including exact end dates and times, in the coming weeks."). The rest of the event begins on the 8th, but it looks like that part won't start until sometime afterward.

[Rodin]

Renounce Darkness is understandable. It's not a card that will "shake up the meta", but it was a popular card when it was released. The meme potential is huge, and bringing it back with a different card set makes sense.

Some of the other cards though....

Astral Communion is the stand-out "WHY!?" card, but at least that's a card with meme potential. Who wanted to see Bloodhoof Brave back? It's not a bad card, but it doesn't fit with current Warrior decks and isn't particularly interesting. Vol'jin is another odd duck. Thing from Below was great when Shaman was trying to use their hero power to get lots of totems on board, but in today's game they're too tied up summoning lackeys.

[Zevox]

Renounce Darkness is understandable. It's not a card that will "shake up the meta", but it was a popular card when it was released. The meme potential is huge, and bringing it back with a different card set makes sense.

Was it? I barely ever saw anyone use it. I could probably count the number of times I saw it played on one hand.

Who wanted to see Bloodhoof Brave back? It's not a bad card, but it doesn't fit with current Warrior decks and isn't particularly interesting. Vol'jin is another odd duck. Thing from Below was great when Shaman was trying to use their hero power to get lots of totems on board, but in today's game they're too tied up summoning lackeys.

Oh, I can see why they'd pick those. Bloodhoof Brave likely has a home in Tempo Warrior. The only time previously where that deck was good was when that card had just been released, after all, and it was a stand-out part of it. And while Tempo Warrior isn't as strong as Control currently, it is a thing that exists, or so I've heard, thanks to Bloodsworn Mercenary.

Vol'jin is a bit odd admittedly, but at least is a theoretically strong card. And almost certainly won't go in the more aggressive Priest deck that is apparently in vogue these days, so that may be part of the reasoning there (as opposed to something like, say, Velen's Chosen, which would be a good one to bring back if they wanted to help that deck). Could say similar things about Varian Wrynn, personally - it's not the most likely card to make a splash in this bunch, but it's one of those that is a "it's theoretically strong, maybe it finds a place this time" type of thing.

And Thing from Below is a very strong card that could make Shamans experiment with archetypes other Quest, basically, is my thinking. Goes well with Evolve, which is also coming back, and they do have Mutate for that archetype, plus Lackeys can contribute to it. Alternatively, maybe it helps bring Control Shaman back into contention - being able to drop a 5/5 taunt for 0 after you board wipe with Hagatha's Scheme (or whatever), or alongside a big play like Walking Fountain or Shudderwock, could be quite a big deal for that.

[Winthur]

Was it? I barely ever saw anyone use it. I could probably count the number of times I saw it played on one hand.

It's mostly popular among streamers and YouTubers meming it up, since Renounce decks tend to be expensive and not very effective. Clearly, for Warrior, Explore Un'Goro should have made a comeback.

[Nerocite]

The main renounce deck I remember was Barnes into Ysharj, then renounce for more minions. Pretty fun card in general.

[Stevesciguy]

Y'know, I think my deck would actually stand half a chance against mech handbuff paladin, if they didn't keep drawing Divine Favor the turn their hand would run out

This one actually had to play both of his. He had 2 cards left in his deck on turn 9

I've only had to play against it 3 or 4 times, but it has happened each time

Edit: ok, done for today. The mech paladin sucked, but at least his cards started in his deck. All but one other game I've played has been against decks where every other card has been randomly generated.

[Rodin]

Finally beat Tekahn on Heroic. He kept bullying me out of the game with massive C'Thuns that we would resurrect over and over again, and I would either get knocked out by the battlecry or if I made into the final phase I would lose to the one he resurrects with the other old gods.

This time through I kept some hand space open, so when he killed me with it the first time I picked Finley and drew into the Scales of Justice. Bye Bye, 50 damage C'thun. Hello, 1/1 Tinyfin.

I had the same plan in mind for when he hit his third phase, planning to shift to Elise and then use Addarah to deal with the final C'Thun. Turned out not to be necessary - he Plagued me on his first turn, and I played Staff of Renewal. Turns out I had played 5 King Crushes during the game as well as somehow playing a Mal'ganis (I have no idea how or when I did this), meaning I didn't take any damage from his hero power. 80 damage over two turns sealed off an easy win.

[Hamste]

Cool, I have the 1000 wins on Guldan.

[Stevesciguy]

I had a quest to win a game with Warlock or shaman.

So I made a shaman/Warlock in Arena.

I should've gotten double quest rewards for fulfilling both parts simultaneously

[Seerow]

Color me surprised to find hearthstone grandmasters in the international news and front page of Reddit

I will avoid saying any more for site rules, but it is an interesting situation.



That said I will not be among the players quitting over it. So instead I am looking forward to checking out some dual class arena tonight

[Nerocite]

My favorite part of dual class arena is that there's no classic or basic cards, game feels a lot different without them.

[Rynjin]

Color me surprised to find hearthstone grandmasters in the international news and front page of Reddit

I will avoid saying any more for site rules, but it is an interesting situation.



That said I will not be among the players quitting over it. So instead I am looking forward to checking out some dual class arena tonight

Interesting is certainly a way to put it.

I won't be quitting either, but I'll certainly be thinking thrice before spending any more money on Activision/Blizzard products for a while.

[LaZodiac]

Interesting is certainly a way to put it.

I won't be quitting either, but I'll certainly be thinking thrice before spending any more money on Activision/Blizzard products for a while.

By my understanding Activision actually separated from them recently.

[Rynjin]

By my understanding Activision actually separated from them recently.

You might be thinking of Bungie.

[Stevesciguy]

Color me surprised to find hearthstone grandmasters in the international news and front page of Reddit

I will avoid saying any more for site rules, but it is an interesting situation.



That said I will not be among the players quitting over it. So instead I am looking forward to checking out some dual class arena tonight

I'm not quitting either. I need my card game.

Whole situation is a bit of a dumpster fire, though. Been trying to watch Kripp, and his chat is a disaster. I've lost count of how many people I've blocked, and the ****storm has hardly even slowed down.

[Rodin]

I will avoid saying any more for site rules, but it is an interesting situation.

Funnily enough, site rules really gets to the heart of the matter.

I don't blame Blizzard for this any more than I blame GitP moderators for deleting political posts. There were rules, the player broke them, he got kicked. End of story.

The only way there's any controversy is if those rules weren't made clear going in, and given how cautious everybody else is (not cursing, avoiding showing branded products, not talking about non-Hearthstone stuff in their interviews) I have to assume that a rule sheet for the players was given out.

[Rynjin]

I looked at the rule in question not long after the news came out. It's deliberately vague, and selectively enforceable.

Their actions were intentional and directed, not forced.

[LaZodiac]

Given they also took away all his prize money and fired the two people interviewing him at the time, it's pretty clear this was Blizzard taking a shotgun to someone as opposed to the rules forcing their hands.

[Seerow]

I looked at the rule in question not long after the news came out. It's deliberately vague, and selectively enforceable.

Their actions were intentional and directed, not forced.

Yeah. If it was a multiple offense scenario, I could see it. But let's just remember how long it took Roger to see any punishment after being caught cheating literally three times in the span of a month, and even he didn't have prize money revoked, and was even given the opportunity to play in Worlds before his 1 year ban took effect.

Compared to that, revoking an entire Grandmaster's season of prize money (I think I saw somewhere around $10,000) and immediate disqualification seems particularly harsh for an offense that took place outside of actual gameplay.



In other news, got to try a Dual Class arena last night. First run went 12-2 with a Warrior/Warlock. The deck was good, but I didn't think that good, just had a great curve and I consistently drew the 2-3 late game minions I had (Tar Lord, Kabal Trafficer, Leatherclad Hogleader). With the current selection of sets, even with dual class, most people just don't have much removal. playing a giant taunt is enough to let you safely go face for 2-3 turns which wins the game by itself a lot. In two games I managed to Corpseraiser my Tar Lord, and having a 5/11 taunt that resurrects itself when it dies in a meta with almost no hard removal is amazing.

My first loss actually came at the 0-0 game against a Rogue/Druid who I don't think played a single non-premium card the entire game, and had an opening of Mistress of Mixtures into some buff + living roots to clear my one drop, and never really slowed down from there. At that point I thought I was screwed, but then went on a win streak until I was at 11-1 and... honestly by that point I was so tired I don't even remember what I ran into, but I do remember getting Bonemared twice and being livid about the second one.

[Joran]

Was it? I barely ever saw anyone use it. I could probably count the number of times I saw it played on one hand.

I mostly saw Renounce in meme decks at dumpster Wild ranks or in random brawls.

Oh, I can see why they'd pick those. Bloodhoof Brave likely has a home in Tempo Warrior. The only time previously where that deck was good was when that card had just been released, after all, and it was a stand-out part of it. And while Tempo Warrior isn't as strong as Control currently, it is a thing that exists, or so I've heard, thanks to Bloodsworn Mercenary.

Interesting enough, given the meta before the new Wild cards came out, Aggro/Tempo Warrior was better than Control Warrior. Aggro/Tempo Warrior had better game against the slower Quest Druid, Shaman, and Priest decks.

VS Reaper's quote

Both Aggro Warrior and Control Warrior have proven themselves to be strong ladder decks, but Aggro Warrior looks to be superior at the moment.

While Control Warrior is suffering the consequences of balance changes, it was kept in a competitive spot thanks to the meta speeding up in order to contest Combo Priest’s early game. Since it’s very difficult to perform well against both decks, when the spotlight and attention are on beating Priest, the meta becomes more vulnerable to the removal game plan of Warrior.

Aggro Warrior is an extremely good choice if you want to perform well against the “big 3” (Combo Priest, Quest Shaman, Quest Druid). The archetype is thriving as a result of Control Warrior not being too popular. The Highlander variant is a viable alternative to the standard version, and there’s very little that separates the two in terms of power level.

But Control Warrior does hard counter Aggro Warrior and I despise that match up.

P.S. Regarding the outside the game stuff, Kibler's statement hit the right notes and mirror's my thinking. I'm not quitting either, but I've been free2play for awhile and will definitely think twice about spending money again on Hearthstone.

[Stevesciguy]

I almost oneshot the brawl, took Doctor Boom and went super heavy on bomb-shuffling tactics. Was even on track to do it under 40 minutes.

Warning: the bomb-shuffling strategy does not work well against the final boss. At least, not on its own