Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Spore]

As I said either HS has to switch its mechanics up to make control mirrors interesting (and ffs I don't mean RNG effects) or I will just play superior card games where control games are actually interesting. This game is not designed for high level pro play but for casual gamers in which high level pro play is possible.

All while providing card effects and decks that can be featured on YT compilations.

[Zevox]

No match of any non-4X game should run longer than 30 minutes.

I haven't had a match run even that long, much less longer, but I also see no reason why it would bother me if it did. I'd play fewer matches that day as a result, but that doesn't bother me at all, if I'm having more fun in the matches I do play, which I most likely would be.

Eh. I've always been bored by the Control mirror. Chances are your opponent is running, card for card, the same deck as you so there's no "Aha, well played" moments, you're literally just playing cards to bait out the exact answers you know for a certainty they have so eventually whoever drew the most efficient answers in the right order inevitably wins in fatigue.

Knowing what the opponent's deck probably contains is just normal on standard ladder, at least after the first couple of weeks into an expansion. And of course what you draw when will impact things (trust me, I've had Warrior mirrors where my opponent has Mad Genius Boom on 7 and I don't draw mine until much later, it's always sad...) - but your ability to ration out what you need to use when and what needs to be saved for later can make or break control mirrors just as easily as any draw. Maximizing the value you get out of various things can as well: make sure you get 3 cards out of both Omega Assemblies, never pass up the stronger Boom hero powers unless you have no choice, knowing which mechs to grab from Delivery Drones, save your 9+ mana cards for turns when you're stuck with the 1 damage AoE or 3 damage hero power and have no good use for them, don't use Shield Slams on on mid-size minions unless forced to, etc. All of those little things make such matches far more fun to me than any other. Resource management and value over the long term is what it's all about, and that's my favorite single part of the game, personally.

Plus you can get weird moments that don't happen in other matchups, like when you deliberately give your opponent a triple-draw Acolyte of Pain, even though it won't burn anything, because it will accelerate his fatigue. Always fun when a move like that influences a win in the long haul. (Yes, I know Acolytes are not typically used right now, just an example from past matches I've liked.)

[Gandariel]

I really don't see why you're piling on Zevox for liking control mirrors.

Personally I don't like them either, but that's why i dont play Control Warrior.
There are a lot of playstyles that this game supports, and everyone's welcome to use whatever they like.
The only way this would be a valid complaint is if the meta was totally dominated by control decks, and reddit tells me the best decks right now are zoo and tempo rogue.

Plus, when two control decks play each other, it's a win-win: they have a great experience, and everyone else enjoys two less control decks in the queue for 40 minutes :)

Lastly, since we were discussing earlier the use of Echo, here is Mike Donais' opinion.

https://youtu.be/ZX4X7PrqYDc
Time is 34:28

[Requizen]

That's why I like Handlock - it's not particularly hard control past like turn 6, especially if you rip Rafaam early or can get out Jaraxxus on curve. Against Control decks it just becomes "how many 6/6s and Legendaries can you realistically deal with?"

[heronbpv]

@Gandariel:
It's not that Control mirrors are a problem, but the fact that a single card RNG effect is the de-facto decider for the winner, in Warrior vs Warrior mirror in particular. No wonder people are teching Baleful Banker in the competitive format, as that single act decides the winner. There's also Hecklebot, which forces the game to be decided by who can pull the opponent's Elysiana or Baleful Banker. This doesn't make for very compelling competition, just a RNG clownfiesta.
On ladder though, it's just annoying. If Elysiana's effect where somehow more predictable (as in, the discover has a more particular rule, e.g. first choice is a 5 mana minion, second is a 5+ mana spell, etc.), and restricted to only once per game, we could at least take out this exaggerated RNG factor from the outcome of a game. But alas, this may also end, if we find a better control deck (unlikely), or if a counter combo deck arises (probably Malygos Druid).

And I say these, as a CW player, just like Zevox, that wants the game to be decided by my decisions overall. RNG is ok, but not when it's this decisive.

[Rodin]

Lastly, since we were discussing earlier the use of Echo, here is Mike Donais' opinion.

https://youtu.be/ZX4X7PrqYDc
Time is 34:28

I mean, that's the reason they've been giving since the card was previewed. It still doesn't make sense when they release this card simultaneously with a card that gives Mega-Windfury, which is a far more obscure mechanic than Echo and has only been on one card in the past ever (two if you count the single-player weapon that had it). And that card was never played except in meme decks even when it was around!

It's just a really odd decision.

---

I think I've fallen in love with Big/Muck Shaman. Pressuring a Control Warrior from turn 5 thanks to a Farsight + Eureka + Big Bad Archmage + Ancestral Spirit? Priceless. Seems weakest against the token decks, because unless you draw your AoEs early (and particularly Hagatha's Scheme) you just get overrun before you can get your healing engine going.

[Requizen]

@Gandariel:
It's not that Control mirrors are a problem, but the fact that a single card RNG effect is the de-facto decider for the winner, in Warrior vs Warrior mirror in particular. No wonder people are teching Baleful Banker in the competitive format, as that single act decides the winner. There's also Hecklebot, which forces the game to be decided by who can pull the opponent's Elysiana or Baleful Banker. This doesn't make for very compelling competition, just a RNG clownfiesta.
On ladder though, it's just annoying. If Elysiana's effect where somehow more predictable (as in, the discover has a more particular rule, e.g. first choice is a 5 mana minion, second is a 5+ mana spell, etc.), and restricted to only once per game, we could at least take out this exaggerated RNG factor from the outcome of a game. But alas, this may also end, if we find a better control deck (unlikely), or if a counter combo deck arises (probably Malygos Druid).

And I say these, as a CW player, just like Zevox, that wants the game to be decided by my decisions overall. RNG is ok, but not when it's this decisive.

And remember, if you play Control Shaman you can get even another Elysiana effect off Shudderwock!

[Resileaf]

That reminds me, I got a Shudderwock from a pinata as bomb warrior against a deathrattle mech hunter this morning.

[Rynjin]

With every passing day I get saltier and saltier that Equality is 4 mana now.

[Zevox]

With every passing day I get saltier and saltier that Equality is 4 mana now.

Believe me, I feel that. Right up there with Firey War Axe on the list of nerfs I hate the most.

[AmberVael]

@Gandariel:
It's not that Control mirrors are a problem, but the fact that a single card RNG effect is the de-facto decider for the winner, in Warrior vs Warrior mirror in particular. No wonder people are teching Baleful Banker in the competitive format, as that single act decides the winner. There's also Hecklebot, which forces the game to be decided by who can pull the opponent's Elysiana or Baleful Banker. This doesn't make for very compelling competition, just a RNG clownfiesta.
On ladder though, it's just annoying. If Elysiana's effect where somehow more predictable (as in, the discover has a more particular rule, e.g. first choice is a 5 mana minion, second is a 5+ mana spell, etc.), and restricted to only once per game, we could at least take out this exaggerated RNG factor from the outcome of a game. But alas, this may also end, if we find a better control deck (unlikely), or if a counter combo deck arises (probably Malygos Druid).

And I say these, as a CW player, just like Zevox, that wants the game to be decided by my decisions overall. RNG is ok, but not when it's this decisive.

As a control warrior player who just won a mirror match after I had my Elysiana pulled by Hecklebot... nah. There's more going on in these games than just RNG.

[Psyren]

Plus, when two control decks play each other, it's a win-win: they have a great experience, and everyone else enjoys two less control decks in the queue for 40 minutes :)

Too true

Not to mention, when they show up thinking I'm a control deck and I instead win with a big combo, the reaction is quite satisfying

[Requizen]

How to give someone the feel-bads:

Spoiler

Show

Warrior mirror - me Bomb, him Control.

He discovers Piloted Reaper and plays it (Deathrattle, summon a 2 cost or lower minion from your hand).

I kill it, pulls out his Brewmaster, sorry enemy Elysiana!

Game goes late, he plays Elysiana and defuses all my bombs.

I discover 2 more Clockwork Goblins.

I play my Elysiana (not running Brewmaster myself), discover Elysiana.

We both go to fatigue, I play a second Elysiana with a third in my hand.

Opponent quits.

Anyone have a good Rez Priest deck? I really want to try it now that it's not complete insanity like it was last month and crafted Catrena Muerte, but my setup seems mediocre.

[heronbpv]

@Requizen:
You could try this one, taken from the most recent Data Reaper Report. It's actually a variation on the pre-expansion Wall Priest. I do recommend you read their report on the meta, as it's very insightful. Here is the deck code:

Spoiler

Show

### Catrina Wall Priest
# Class: Priest
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Dragon
#
# 2x (0) Forbidden Words
# 2x (1) Inner Fire
# 2x (1) Northshire Cleric
# 2x (1) Power Word: Shield
# 2x (2) Divine Hymn
# 2x (2) Divine Spirit
# 1x (3) Shadow Word: Death
# 1x (4) Archmage Vargoth
# 2x (4) Hench-Clan Shadequill
# 2x (5) Convincing Infiltrator
# 2x (5) Mass Hysteria
# 2x (5) Witchwood Grizzly
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 2x (6) Damaged Stegotron
# 1x (8) Catrina Muerte
# 2x (8) Mosh'Ogg Enforcer
# 2x (9) Mass Resurrection
#
AAECAa0GBNMKoIAD1pkDk5sDDfgC5QTRCvIM8vECvfMC+/4Cl4cD2IkDgpQDg5QDmJsDmZsDAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
# https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/dec...a-wall-priest/

[Zevox]

Woohoo, opened two packs today, and got a legendary in each of them! Heistbaron Toggwaggle and Kalecgos.

[Hamste]

Woo! I finally made it to legend. In the end, I played 90 games in a little over a single day with my control warrior and ended with a 70% win rate. I do suggest heckle bot over the saboteur with the current meta. It is only worse against hunter or combo decks (Of which I met 2, both of the times it failed, once from not being drawn and once from me not recognizing a warrior deck as a c'thun deck and not just regular control until it was too late.)

Spoiler: Deck list

Show

### Custom Warrior3
# Class: Warrior
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Dragon
#
# 2x (1) Eternium Rover
# 2x (1) Omega Assembly
# 2x (1) Shield Slam
# 2x (1) Town Crier
# 1x (2) Dragon Roar
# 2x (2) Warpath
# 2x (2) Weapons Project
# 1x (2) Youthful Brewmaster
# 2x (3) Shield Block
# 1x (4) Militia Commander
# 2x (4) Omega Devastator
# 2x (5) Brawl
# 1x (5) Darius Crowley
# 2x (5) Dyn-o-matic
# 1x (5) Supercollider
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 1x (6) Unseen Saboteur
# 1x (7) Baron Geddon
# 1x (7) Dr. Boom, Mad Genius
# 1x (8) Archivist Elysiana
#
AAECAQcK0AKfA83vAtH1ApL4Ao77AqCAA6qLA9KYA4adAwpLog T/B53wApvzAvT1AoP7Ap77ArP8ApKfAwA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

[The Glyphstone]

I was so sad in the Brawl I just completed - my Bloom Bot rolled Mimiron's Head with a board full of Boom Bots, and for the first time ever I got to see V-07-TR-0N summoned. My opponent immediately conceded.

[zlefin]

That's a common problem in hearthstone; many rare but cool comboes never get to be seen, beacuse the opponent concedes first. Like if you could collect all 4 of death knight uther's guys.

[Anarion]

That's a common problem in hearthstone; many rare but cool comboes never get to be seen, beacuse the opponent concedes first. Like if you could collect all 4 of death knight uther's guys.

That used to happen all the time. If people were conceding against control paladin last expansion, it was usually a mistake. Not every deck ran the same amount of bounce and duplicate (some people ran multiple brewmasters, some just Zola and the one panda for example) so there were a number of games where your opponent might or might not be able to win and you could win on the next turn if you just sat there and waited out their bluff or watched them win. Conceding once all 4 hit the board is a moot point, since the animation happens anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

I didnt even know Voltron had a special summon animation till now.

[Rynjin]

My abomination of a Paladin deck keeps getting better as we get deeper into the expansion, which is heartening to me. Things have settled a bit so I can run pure Control for 5-7 turns and not get immediately hyper-nuked out of existence as people tweak their decks to be a bit slower so they don't auto-lose to Control Warrior. Which is kind of a nightmare right now.

I haven't even drawn my Duels until the last few cards in my deck the last couple of games I've won with it and it's been doing all right. I just now need to get a second copy of Batterhead and Baron Geddon and I can replace the Burly Rockfists, which are now sort of my low roll cards (since they're the only ones that are difficult to effectively play from hand).

Current Decklist:

Spoiler

Show

### Biggus Dickus
# Class: Paladin
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Dragon
#
# 2x (2) Lightforged Blessing
# 2x (3) Time Out!
# 1x (4) Archmage Vargoth
# 2x (4) Consecration
# 2x (4) Equality
# 2x (5) Duel!
# 2x (5) Shrink Ray
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 1x (6) Avenging Wrath
# 1x (7) A New Challenger...
# 2x (7) Amani War Bear
# 2x (7) Rabble Bouncer
# 1x (7) Tunnel Blaster
# 1x (8) Batterhead
# 1x (8) Tirion Fordring
# 2x (9) Burly Shovelfist
# 1x (9) Malygos
# 1x (9) Oondasta
# 1x (9) Ysera
# 1x (10) Big Bad Archmage
# 1x (25) Shirvallah, the Tiger
#
AAECAZ8FDLQD+gaWCaIJoIADvYYD44YDm4oDxJkD1pkDgaADg6 ADCdwD9AWE/ALPhgPbiQPYjAOKmgOGnAOgngMA
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

Absolutely crushes Token Druid, and has a pretty good track record against all Hunters, Big Shaman, and Rogue IF I draw my Duels. Usually loses to Control Warrior from small sample size since A.) they have SO MUCH removal and B.) I'm cursed to draw Duel as my last two card draws and so can NEVER hit their Elysiana.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Whenever my warrior mirror matches come down to the elysiana luck duel, my opponents always get bomb generators and Omega Assemblies which they then get Zilliax out of both, while I get stormpike commando and deathwing

[Seerow]

I have yet to run a deck that includes Elysiana. But I really don't want to do the control warrior grind. Are there any other classes doing well with the fatigue gameplan? I feel like Shaman and Priest are the best candidates but haven't seen much of either.

[Fleeing Coward]

One thing I didn't know abour Voltron until last brawl was that it is actually an entire new minion so freezing everything does nothing.

I've been messing around with Khadgar Dragon Mage lately just for fun. Has some absolutely horrible matchups against the aggro decks but having close to an auto win against most Control Warrior makes it worth it

[heronbpv]

I have yet to run a deck that includes Elysiana. But I really don't want to do the control warrior grind. Are there any other classes doing well with the fatigue gameplan? I feel like Shaman and Priest are the best candidates but haven't seen much of either.

And you are right, at least about Shaman. One advantage they have over Warrior, is that their second Elysiana comes from Shudderwock and not from a bouncing effect, so it's one more useful card slot for the deck.

On the other hand, they have a weaker control shell.

[Requizen]

And you are right, at least about Shaman. One advantage they have over Warrior, is that their second Elysiana comes from Shudderwock and not from a bouncing effect, so it's one more useful card slot for the deck.

On the other hand, they have a weaker control shell.

It's a tad weaker, but not by much. Scheme, Hagatha Hero, and Lightning Storm give solid AoE, while Walking Fountain is pseudo AoE and Hagatha (Legendary) can discover AoE a good portion of the time. Hex is a better hard removal than anything Warrior has since it also bypasses Deathrattles, doesn't require Armor or Damage, and can mess up rez pools as well. And Witch's Brew is a great healing tool that can create massive swing turns.

They play in different ways, but I don't think it's weaker at all.

[heronbpv]

Although I do agree with some of your assessments, @Requizen, regarding the individual tools Shaman has, the reality is that, when put against the current field, Shaman's control shell is just being crushed, while Warrior can still thrive, despite being targeted by the meta (e.g. Hecklebot vs Elysiana Control Warrior). So I do think, objectively, it's correct to say that it's weaker to Warrior's.

Also, while Control Shaman has a marginal presence in the current meta, for now at least, Control Warrior is, once again, disrupting it. For example, the very fact that we are discussing using Elysiana as a tech option in a control deck, is because it got popularized by a Control Warrior variation, so much so that now having some form of bouncing it is pretty much mandatory in said decks, else you lose the mirror. Which also helps illustrate another point: right now, the only really effective Control decks in the meta are variations of Control Warrior, and they're mostly concerned against the mirror when it comes to Control vs Control.

Not that the meta is set in stone, yet, but the reality for now is pretty much that Control Warrior is the better of the two. At least, in regards to the ladder meta.

[Rodin]

At 9-1, I think I can definitely say that Warlock is crazy in Arena right now. Voidcaller is just SUCH a bonkers card, and Warlock also gets one of the better Lackey generators to back it up. They've nabbed a powerful board clear with Felfire Potion, and my one loss was to a Zoolock running a Darkshire Councilman + Lackey package that very quickly ran my more controlling deck over.

Oh, and the Old Gods are available in Arena at the moment, meaning that you can have N'Zoth generate a full board of Voidcallers after you've fought them to a standstill. I think C'thun and his related cards are still banned though.

[The Glyphstone]

This is a boring and unpleasant Brawl for me, because all of the champion decks are Control or Combo oriented, my two least favorite types of decks to run.

[Geno9999]

This is a boring and unpleasant Brawl for me, because all of the champion decks are Control or Combo oriented, my two least favorite types of decks to run.

Eh, there's an Midrange Hunter with Undertaker package and Mana Wyrm Tempo Mage. That being said, I've also seen at least 2 variations of Tempo/Miracle Rogue as well so... yeah, I'd rather at least pick a class and get a deck from that.

Also, I have conflicted feelings about seeing unnerfed Blade Flurry if I want to see it with Kingsbane or not.