Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker

[Keltest]

That wasn't until RotJ. Lucas made that interview before ESB was released. I agree the line doesn't contradict the "anyone can do it," but it also doesn't do that idea any favors.

Whats your point? Lucas clearly changed his mind at some point, about Luke being special if nothing else.

[Sapphire Guard]

Sorry, I've lost track, what is the argument about again?

[Dienekes]

Sorry, I've lost track, what is the argument about again?

The nature of the Force I believe. They're just about getting to the part where they realize that the creator of the Force had no idea himself.

[Peelee]

The nature of the Force I believe. They're just about getting to the part where they realize that the creator of the Force had no idea himself.

No idea? More like too many ideas!

[Zevox]

What I'm trying to say is that feeling and focus gets you the powers, and the training given is about how to let go and achieve that focus to do so more readily and more refined.

Okay, this perhaps is the source of our disagreement then. You seem to have a very specific notion in your mind of what that means and how force powers therefore work. I don't. I see comments like those in the OT and feel that they're rather vague, probably deliberately so, and just shrug it off as "eh, it's mind-magic, it's partially only stuff that's happening in their heads anyway, of course they can't explain it more specifically." And I don't feel any need to explain it further - it's basically magic of the mind, end of story, in my thinking.

I do see all of the context around how it's learned in the OT and come away with, I feel, every reason to believe that this focus and how to feel and use the force needs to be taught. We have both the specific example of Luke, and the implications of the more general comments about the Jedi and their past from the others. I'm mostly repeating myself here, but Luke clearly required training - we get no implication that he ever even accidentally used the force before Obi-Wan told him he could and started teaching him, he makes very little progress in between Obi-Wan's death and when he's sent to find Yoda (he clearly struggled with the basic telekinesis that is the only thing we see that he picked up in between), and he progresses by leaps and bounds once he has Yoda teaching him. Nothing of his personal journey indicates to me that this is something that someone could easily just pick up via intuition. And then there's the hints at what the Jedi did before from Obi-Wan and Vader, which all point towards the master and student system being very much a part of it: Yoda trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan trained Vader, Yoda is specifically referred to as a "Jedi Master" as if that were an important title, even Vader calling himself a "learner" feels like a bit of a strangely specific term when "student" would have been the more typical way to say it (though admittedly that last is partially informed by looking back at it now that we have the phrase "Padawan Learner" from the prequels). Yoda even makes the very specific point that only a "fully trained Jedi" could hope to face and defeat Vader and the Emperor, as if that's a very specific, formal status that Luke should be working towards.

So there's all of that which strikes me as indicating that force use requires teaching, and really the only thing that seems to indicate otherwise even slightly is the fact that Luke picked up the basic telekinesis on his own. But again, he was struggling with it, and improved it significantly once he had Yoda to teach him, so at best that seems to indicate that someone could do some self-teaching through experimentation and slowly pick things up. But to bring it back to the source of this discussion, that's by no means what we see Leia do in TLJ.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? Is there something I'm not understanding about your perspective here? It doesn't feel like we have a total disconnect that can't be bridged, the way some of these arguments can, but we are hitting the point where it's feeling like we're going in circles.

[Devonix]

Okay, this perhaps is the source of our disagreement then. You seem to have a very specific notion in your mind of what that means and how force powers therefore work. I don't. I see comments like those in the OT and feel that they're rather vague, probably deliberately so, and just shrug it off as "eh, it's mind-magic, it's partially only stuff that's happening in their heads anyway, of course they can't explain it more specifically." And I don't feel any need to explain it further - it's basically magic of the mind, end of story, in my thinking.

I do see all of the context around how it's learned in the OT and come away with, I feel, every reason to believe that this focus and how to feel and use the force needs to be taught. We have both the specific example of Luke, and the implications of the more general comments about the Jedi and their past from the others. I'm mostly repeating myself here, but Luke clearly required training - we get no implication that he ever even accidentally used the force before Obi-Wan told him he could and started teaching him, he makes very little progress in between Obi-Wan's death and when he's sent to find Yoda (he clearly struggled with the basic telekinesis that is the only thing we see that he picked up in between), and he progresses by leaps and bounds once he has Yoda teaching him. Nothing of his personal journey indicates to me that this is something that someone could easily just pick up via intuition. And then there's the hints at what the Jedi did before from Obi-Wan and Vader, which all point towards the master and student system being very much a part of it: Yoda trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan trained Vader, Yoda is specifically referred to as a "Jedi Master" as if that were an important title, even Vader calling himself a "learner" feels like a bit of a strangely specific term when "student" would have been the more typical way to say it (though admittedly that last is partially informed by looking back at it now that we have the phrase "Padawan Learner" from the prequels). Yoda even makes the very specific point that only a "fully trained Jedi" could hope to face and defeat Vader and the Emperor, as if that's a very specific, formal status that Luke should be working towards.

So there's all of that which strikes me as indicating that force use requires teaching, and really the only thing that seems to indicate otherwise even slightly is the fact that Luke picked up the basic telekinesis on his own. But again, he was struggling with it, and improved it significantly once he had Yoda to teach him, so at best that seems to indicate that someone could do some self-teaching through experimentation and slowly pick things up. But to bring it back to the source of this discussion, that's by no means what we see Leia do in TLJ.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? Is there something I'm not understanding about your perspective here? It doesn't feel like we have a total disconnect that can't be bridged, the way some of these arguments can, but we are hitting the point where it's feeling like we're going in circles.

I'm not saying that training isn't important. I'm saying that the things being taught, and the important lessons, aren't lessons of abilities, they're lessons on behavior, on ways of thinking about the world. That from what we've seen from Yoda's training to Luke, and the small lessons Obiwan gave. That they teach their students, about opening their eyes to the world. That the powers training is secondary

[Reddish Mage]

Okay, this perhaps is the source of our disagreement then. You seem to have a very specific notion in your mind of what that means and how force powers therefore work. I don't. I see comments like those in the OT and feel that they're rather vague, probably deliberately so, and just shrug it off as "eh, it's mind-magic, it's partially only stuff that's happening in their heads anyway, of course they can't explain it more specifically." And I don't feel any need to explain it further - it's basically magic of the mind, end of story, in my thinking.

That position is rather extreme. We've had 6 movies to tell us about how the Force works and specifically how a force-sensitive acquires powers and is trained. If you're more hardcore fan you've also read novels, seen TV animation and played video games that show stuff (not necessarily always consistent).

To the best of my knowledge, we don't see the sorts of feats we've seen in The Force Awakened and The Last Jedi. Light-side Force Ghosts don't use force lightning or hit things with sticks, newly awakened force-senstivies don't show mastery of telepathic domination techniques (although Leia resists Vader's attempt to invade her mind off-screen in Episode IV, despite assistance from a torture droid), the sort of survival flight that Leia did was pretty new, maybe the sort of projection done by Luke was within canon but the stuff with the dice is pretty iffy (which in retrospect is just to mislead us that Luke was really there).

The movie is breaking new ground with how various types of force-sensitives use the Force, whether the movie is anointing Rey as the new chosen one or is simply going about purposely undermining our expectations of how things work every chance they get (The Last Jedi).

By the way, I'm surprised how people ignore Rey is chosen in some sense similar to Luke and Anakin in the prior trilogies. In The Force Awakened she is both the most obvious source of the "awakening" of the Force, and she is literally chosen by Anakin's lightsaber to the amazement of Maz Kanata. However, she is clearly a cut above other newly-awakened saviors. Both Anakin and Luke only have a handful of abilities at first that are mostly implied (i.e. both are great pilots), and both avoid direct confrontation with the Sith villain in their first outing and, at best, manage a successful retreat in their second. However, in addition to her piloting skills being top-notch, Rey's telepathy and telekinesis overpower's Kylo Ren's and she actually beats the villain in a direct confrontation (although she has plenty of help).

Also, Force-abilities have never allowed for rapid skill acquisition from what I recall. Rey, despite being almost entirely self-taught and having days (at best) of lightsaber training, appears to have abilities with a blade equal to Kylo's as of the middle of Episode VIII. That's new.

With the time-skip, we're going to see what Rey's fully realized Jedi powers are, probably in the first scene of Episode IX if the past is any indication, we're going to be seeing something that puts The Force Unleashed video game series to shame in terms of raw ability. The difference, in The Force Unleashed Starkiller was given extensive training by Darth Vader himself (and a bunch of robots in the tutorial) before being "unleashed" to incinerate large groups of foes in seconds with lightning, TK, and lightsaber throws.

[Zevox]

I'm not saying that training isn't important. I'm saying that the things being taught, and the important lessons, aren't lessons of abilities, they're lessons on behavior, on ways of thinking about the world. That from what we've seen from Yoda's training to Luke, and the small lessons Obiwan gave. That they teach their students, about opening their eyes to the world. That the powers training is secondary

Okay, I don't entirely agree with that, but I'm also not sure what you're disagreeing with me on now. Because regardless of whether that were true or not, it wouldn't change what my point has been here, which is that Leia being able to use the force for such a major feat as saving herself after being blown out into the vacuum of space just "instinctively," with no training at all, is ridiculous and inconsistent with what we've seen of Star Wars before. Hence my reaction to learning that was Rian Johnson's intent with that scene being "wow, he managed to make it even worse." Which is where this whole discussion began.

That position is rather extreme. We've had 6 movies to tell us about how the Force works and specifically how a force-sensitive acquires powers and is trained. If you're more hardcore fan you've also read novels, seen TV animation and played video games that show stuff (not necessarily always consistent).

Naturally, other sources do go into more detail about it, but for that discussion Devonix is insisting we're just talking about the original trilogy, and as far as what that has to say about the Force goes, that was (and still is) my reaction. And honestly, those inconsistencies you mention sometimes make it apply elsewhere still. Some amount of handwaving is sometimes necessary, particularly if two stories were written at very different points in the series' development.

I generally agree with your critiques of the new films there too, though I think you might be jumping the gun a bit on that rather extreme prediction for Episode 9. Though at this point literally the only thing I care about for Episode 9 is whether or not Kylo dies, personally, so eh.

[Reddish Mage]

it wouldn't change what my point has been here, which is that Leia being able to use the force for such a major feat as saving herself after being blown out into the vacuum of space just "instinctively," with no training at all, is ridiculous and inconsistent with what we've seen of Star Wars before. Hence my reaction to learning that was Rian Johnson's intent with that scene being "wow, he managed to make it even worse." Which is where this whole discussion began.

Naturally, other sources do go into more detail about it, but for that discussion Devonix is insisting we're just talking about the original trilogy, and as far as what that has to say about the Force goes, that was (and still is) my reaction. And honestly, those inconsistencies you mention sometimes make it apply elsewhere still. Some amount of handwaving is sometimes necessary, particularly if two stories were written at very different points in the series' development.

I'd like to point out that literally nothing every made about Star Wars is completely within the lines of the OT in regards to how Force powers work. Everything of even the old EU usually expands on what's in the movies and sometimes outright contradicts it. Also, some sources further defines and narrows what Force-users can do (multiple sources state that mind control is only a light side power and lightning only a dark side power). You can probably find sources that will expand, contradict, and further redefine and narrow Force powers all at once.

I generally agree with your critiques of the new films there too, though I think you might be jumping the gun a bit on that rather extreme prediction for Episode 9. Though at this point literally the only thing I care about for Episode 9 is whether or not Kylo dies, personally, so eh.

Its possible Rey isn't much more powerful...just further honed and sure of herself and her skills, however that too would be a departure from the typical growth story. We've seen what happens with Anakin, Luke, and if you ever played a Jedi video-game. Jedi level up and gain new powers, they get better and exponentially more powerful as they go from Padawan to Knight (at least).

The only thing I'm sure I disagree is how interesting Kylo Ren is as a character. It seems to me they've switched the expectations for how the hero powers up and the villain. The hero is supposed to struggle, face adversity, and overcome both other's expectations, the odds, and a more powerful opponent to grow. However, its clear, Kylo is the one struggling with low expectations and adversity, then defeats his more powerful opponent (Snoke) to grow as a character. That's great in a hero, but as a villain he is a failure. He isn't scary, and I don't expect him to overcome Rey or prevail against our characters (someone like Vader you can viscerally feel his power and dominant position). I'm also not that thrilled with Kylo's tantrums and I'm not sympathetic to his turn to the Dark Side after being abandoned by Luke...I don't see anything on screen that motivates Kylo into being the murderous manipulative man-boy he is.

[Zevox]

The only thing I'm sure I disagree is how interesting Kylo Ren is as a character. It seems to me they've switched the expectations for how the hero powers up and the villain. The hero is supposed to struggle, face adversity, and overcome both other's expectations, the odds, and a more powerful opponent to grow. However, its clear, Kylo is the one struggling with low expectations and adversity, then defeats his more powerful opponent (Snoke) to grow as a character. That's great in a hero, but as a villain he is a failure. He isn't scary, and I don't expect him to overcome Rey or prevail against our characters (someone like Vader you can viscerally feel his power and dominant position). I'm also not that thrilled with Kylo's tantrums and I'm not sympathetic to his turn to the Dark Side after being abandoned by Luke...I don't see anything on screen that motivates Kylo into being the murderous manipulative man-boy he is.

I think you misunderstood me there. When I said all I care about is whether Kylo dies or not, it's because I want him to die. Because in my opinion he's one of the worst parts of the sequels, precisely because he's a terrible villain. Because I never want to be stuck with him as the villain, or even a major character, of future films. And also because, frankly, after he had his "reject redemption" moment when he killed Han, it's the only dramatically appropriate outcome for him as far as I'm concerned, but I nonetheless do not have the confidence in the people making the films right now to be sure that they're going to do it.

[Devonix]

Rey's not really that powerful. She lifted a couple of rocks, People talk about her resisting the mind stuff from Kylo Ren. But even Leia was able to resist Vader trying to get the information on the plans out of her. And that was back when Leia was never supposed to have force powers.

[Zevox]

Rey's not really that powerful. She lifted a couple of rocks, People talk about her resisting the mind stuff from Kylo Ren. But even Leia was able to resist Vader trying to get the information on the plans out of her. And that was back when Leia was never supposed to have force powers.

That was also back when Vader was trying to get the information through conventional torture, not mind-reading. Unless I'm misremembering, that sort of telepathy didn't crop up until I think Return of the Jedi, when Vader read Luke's thoughts during their final duel and learned about him having a sister that way.

[hamishspence]

That was also back when Vader was trying to get the information through conventional torture, not mind-reading. Unless I'm misremembering, that sort of telepathy didn't crop up until I think Return of the Jedi, when Vader read Luke's thoughts during their final duel and learned about him having a sister that way.

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable".

I think the 1981 Radio Dramatization of ANH shows the scene in more detail - Vader is actually pretending to be Bail Organa at one point during the interrogation.

[Devonix]

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable".

I think the 1981 Radio Dramatization of ANH shows the scene in more detail - Vader is actually pretending to be Bail Organa at one point during the interrogation.

Which is what Spaceballs is referencing when Dark Helmet shows up pretending to be Princess Vespa's Father.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you misunderstood me there. When I said all I care about is whether Kylo dies or not, it's because I want him to die. Because in my opinion he's one of the worst parts of the sequels, precisely because he's a terrible villain. Because I never want to be stuck with him as the villain, or even a major character, of future films. And also because, frankly, after he had his "reject redemption" moment when he killed Han, it's the only dramatically appropriate outcome for him as far as I'm concerned, but I nonetheless do not have the confidence in the people making the films right now to be sure that they're going to do it.

...and so the only thing in the movies you look for is whether or not this terrible character dies? I prefer to look for everything else going on in the movie. When you say you only care about one thing in the movie, you are saying that the whole rest of the whole movie is uninteresting.

Rey's not really that powerful. She lifted a couple of rocks, People talk about her resisting the mind stuff from Kylo Ren. But even Leia was able to resist Vader trying to get the information on the plans out of her. And that was back when Leia was never supposed to have force powers.

I'm not talking about how well she would do in a death battle against some character outside her story. Force users have done things like TK'd stardestroyers, giant superweapons and even planets (or destroyed the same) in the novels and comics. It's about Rey's power within the narrative. She meets and exceeds her opponents in battle. Force battles, Lightsaber battles. Luke is scared when he sees how powerful she is, and all she does in that scene is "lift a couple of rocks." She's powerful, and much to his chagrin, her power meets or exceeds Kylo Ren's.

Btw, originally Vader doesn't even use the force as envisioned in the first movie. Its just a "mind probe" droid with needles sticking out. However, looking back, of course he does...but its all offscreen. Of course, canon now from the novelization states Vader stops the interrogation because he starts to recall Padme and Leia feels like her, so its not Leia's extraordinary resistance anymore, its Vader's own feelings that stop him.

[Fyraltari]

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable".

I think the 1981 Radio Dramatization of ANH shows the scene in more detail - Vader is actually pretending to be Bail Organa at one point during the interrogation.

Wait, really? That’s hilarious!

[hamishspence]

Of course, canon now from the novelization states Vader stops the interrogation because he starts to recall Padme and Leia feels like her, so its not Leia's extraordinary resistance anymore, its Vader's own feelings that stop him.

I don't recall either of the newcanon ANH novelisations showing Vader's POV at any point.

The Legends book Death Star does show Vader noticing Leia's similarity to Padme - but much earlier, and that didn't stop him from torturing her:


Vader smiled under his helmet as a file of stormtroopers arrived with Princess Leia Organa in tow. It was reported that she had shot a trooper before they stunned her. It was hard to think of her showing such bravery—she was so young, so beautiful, dressed in that simple white gown. She reminded him very much of ...
No. He would not allow that thought.
She glared at him, managing to look disdainful even though her hands were cuffed. "Darth Vader," she said, making no effort to hide her contempt. "Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this. When they hear you've attacked a diplomatic—"
He cut her off: "Don't act so surprised, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you."



"And now, Your Highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden Rebel base." Vader told her.
As the interrogator droid floated in behind him, Vader saw her defiant expression falter. He felt her fear as the machine approached her.
Good ...
He heard the door slam down behind them.

But, after half an hour, despite the truth drugs, electrical shocks, and other inducements he had administered, it was evident that her resistance had not been lowered enough for him to probe her mind. That was surprising.
She was physically weakened and in considerable pain, but her mind remained shielded. She had revealed nothing.
Most unusual for anyone except a Jedi to have such control, he mused.
He kept his anger and frustration under tight rein, letting none of it show. He had other matters that required his attention — for now.
"We are not done here," he told her. To one of the technicians he said "Have a medic tend to her."
The technician said, "But isn't she sentenced to die?"
"When I decide it is time," Vader said. "If she is not alive and well until that moment, I will hold you personally responsible."
The tech grew visibly paler. Vader swept by him and out of the cell.

Wait, really? That’s hilarious!

The Legends book The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader makes heavy use of the radio drama scene:


Looming over the prisoner, Vader said "And now, Your Highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden Rebel Base."
There was an electric hum from behind Vader, then a spherical black interrogator droid hovered slowly into the cell. The droid's midsection was ringed by a repulsorlift system, and its exterior was festooned with devices that included an electroshock assembly, sonic torture device, chemical syringe, and lie determinator.
Leia's eyes went wide at the sight of the droid, and Vader could practically taste her terror. She said "Keep it away from me!"
Vader seized his prisoner, pinning her arms to her sides while the interrogator droid moved in closer. There was a brief hiss from the droid's injector arm, then Leia cried out and fell backward, slumping against the cell wall with a thud. "You can't ... she said. "You c —"
"Your Highness," Vader said in his most soothing tone. "Listen to my voice."
Leia's eyes rolled in their sockets, unable to focus on anything. She stammered, "V-voice ..."
"That's right. Listen ... I am your friend."
"Wha — friend?" Leia said, then winced. "No ..."
"Yes!" Vader insisted, watching her plunge deeper into a hypnotic state. "You trust me, you can confide in me. All your secrets are safe with me."
"Mmmm?" Leia licked her lips. "Safe?"
"That's right, safe. You are safe here. You're among friends. You can trust me. I am a member of the Rebel Alliance, like you."
A look of relief swept over Leia's face as she muttered "Rebel?"
"What did you do with the Death Star plans, Leia? Where are they? The Rebels need to know! Help us, Leia!"
"No," she moaned, closing her eyes. "Can't!"
"It's your duty," Vader urged. "Your duty to our Alliance. Your obligation to Alderaan and to your father. It's your duty to tell us where those tapes are!"
"Father?" Leia said, her eyes still shut.
"Yes," Vader said. "Your father commands you to tell us!"
"Father ... wouldn't."
Growing impatient, Vader used his own psychic powers to make Leia believe she was in excruciating pain, but after several minutes, he ended the interrogation. He sensed that her willpower was formidable but must have been augmented with certain physical and mental disciplines. She would not be broken easily.
Leaving the detention cell, he went to report to Grand Moff Tarkin in the Death Star control room. Vader said. "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be some time before we can extract any information from her."

[Zevox]

"Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable".

I think the 1981 Radio Dramatization of ANH shows the scene in more detail - Vader is actually pretending to be Bail Organa at one point during the interrogation.

Seems to me like a reference to the interrogation droid they rather dramatically showed him bringing into the room to use on her, not force-based mind reading. And the latter certainly sounds more like an interrogation technique he wouldn't need if he could just mind-read her as well.

...and so the only thing in the movies you look for is whether or not this terrible character dies? I prefer to look for everything else going on in the movie. When you say you only care about one thing in the movie, you are saying that the whole rest of the whole movie is uninteresting.

Basically correct. Because after The Last Jedi, they have left me not caring about the rest of this trilogy's story. Whether Kylo lives or dies will impact my interest in future films, since it determines whether we'll be stuck seeing him again or not, but my interest in Rise of Skywalker is already dead. I have no intention of watching it, just looking up spoilers to learn Kylo's fate once it's out (or once said spoilers leak).

[hamishspence]

Seems to me like a reference to the interrogation droid they rather dramatically showed him bringing into the room to use on her, not force-based mind reading. And the latter certainly sounds more like an interrogation technique he wouldn't need if he could just mind-read her as well.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...arsRadioDramas

Harsher in Hindsight: The mental tortures Vader puts Leia through in lieu of using the torture droid are much harsher in light of knowing that he is her father. For one, there's a point when he claims to be her father and needing her information, which is also the one time in her life he speaks kindly to her. For two, there's a scene where he makes her believe she's had limbs cut off and she is burning alive and dying - Mustafar much? It also contains an element of Historical Irony as, at the time, neither Vader nor the audience (Return was released two years after the A New Hope play) knew that Vader was Leia's birth father.

[Zevox]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...arsRadioDramas

Harsher in Hindsight: The mental tortures Vader puts Leia through in lieu of using the torture droid are much harsher in light of knowing that he is her father. For one, there's a point when he claims to be her father and needing her information, which is also the one time in her life he speaks kindly to her. For two, there's a scene where he makes her believe she's had limbs cut off and she is burning alive and dying - Mustafar much? It also contains an element of Historical Irony as, at the time, neither Vader nor the audience (Return was released two years after the A New Hope play) knew that Vader was Leia's birth father.

...so this radio drama just decided that the droid they focused on so prominently in that scene just didn't get used? Wow, that's dumb.

Either way though, still indicates he wasn't mind-reading her, just trying to interrogate her.

[hamishspence]

...so this radio drama just decided that the droid they focused on so prominently in that scene just didn't get used?

The droid was used - to inject her full of will-weakening drugs.

In the Legends ROTJ novel, a point is made of how the droid used the full range of painful instruments as well:

"Don't stray too far, my lovely. Soon you will begin to appreciate me." He pulled her very near and forced her to drink from his glass.
Leia opened her mouth and she closed her mind. It was disgusting, of course; but there were worse things, and in any case, this wouldn't last.
The worse things she knew well. Her standard of comparison was the night she'd been tortured by Darth Vader. She had almost broken. The Dark Lord never knew how close he'd come to extracting the information he wanted from her, the location of the Rebel base. He had captured her just after she'd managed to send Artoo and Threepio for help - captured her, taken her to the Death Star, injected her with mind-weakening chemicals ... and tortured her.
Tortured her body first, with his efficient pain-droids. Needles, pressure points, fire-knives, electrojabbers. She'd endured these pains, as she now endured Jabba's loathsome touch - with a natural, inner strength.

[Zevox]

The droid was used - to inject her full of will-weakening drugs.

In the Legends ROTJ novel, a point is made of how the droid used the full range of painful instruments as well:

Okay, so these sources are contradicting each other a bit there.

In any case, are you making an argument here? Because you don't actually seem to be either refuting or indicating support for what I said in the posts you're quoting these past couple of times, just quoting assorted Star Wars sources referencing the same scene we were discussing, and I'm not clear why anymore.

[hamishspence]

The point I'm making is that I can't remember ever reading anything that stated

"Vader stopped torturing Leia because she reminded him of Padme" in the Legendsverse, or in the newcanon.

And, at least in Legends, there's plenty to support the notion that Vader was trying (and failing) to telepathically invade her mind. With the droid being used to make things easier for Vader. And still no luck.

[Devonix]

Okay, so these sources are contradicting each other a bit there.

In any case, are you making an argument here? Because you don't actually seem to be either refuting or indicating support for what I said in the posts you're quoting these past couple of times, just quoting assorted Star Wars sources referencing the same scene we were discussing, and I'm not clear why anymore.

Eh it's starwars, everything contradicts everything. I think we've slipped away from any specific arguments for the moment and just are talking about interpretations.

[Zevox]

The point I'm making is that I can't remember ever reading anything that stated

"Vader stopped torturing Leia because she reminded him of Padme" in the Legendsverse, or in the newcanon.

Okay, though that was something that someone else brought up, not me. I've never heard that one either.

And, at least in Legends, there's plenty to support the notion that Vader was trying (and failing) to telepathically invade her mind. With the droid being used to make things easier for Vader. And still no luck.

None of the sources you've quoted indicate that though, at least not from what I'm seeing. There's lots of talk about him torturing her, none about mind reading.

And even if there were, it wouldn't be relevant to the discussion I was having with Devonix, since he has insisted in the past on considering only the films, not later expanded sources.

[hamishspence]

There's lots of talk about him torturing her, none about mind reading.

He does implant "you're in pain" thoughts in her mind:

Growing impatient, Vader used his own psychic powers to make Leia believe she was in excruciating pain, but after several minutes, he ended the interrogation.


and he tries and fails to read her mind:


But, after half an hour, despite the truth drugs, electrical shocks, and other inducements he had administered, it was evident that her resistance had not been lowered enough for him to probe her mind. That was surprising.
She was physically weakened and in considerable pain, but her mind remained shielded. She had revealed nothing.

[The Jack]

Power creep seems to be very real in star wars

IV- Choke, Guidance, mind tricks, disapearing.
V- Choke through screen (I think it was in this one?), wicked sick jump flip, floaty things, deflecting gunshots with the hand, Ghosts
VI- Lightning

I- Twirly combat, more jumps
II Visions

VI
Stopping bolts of energy mid air effortlessly.
Object induced vision montages.
VII
Force trips.
Interstellar projection of illusionary selves
sick matrix moves that'd ruin your ankles.

[Devonix]

Power creep seems to be very real in star wars

IV- Choke, Guidance, mind tricks, disapearing.
V- Choke through screen (I think it was in this one?), wicked sick jump flip, floaty things, deflecting gunshots with the hand, Ghosts
VI- Lightning

I- Twirly combat, more jumps
II Visions

VI
Stopping bolts of energy mid air effortlessly.
Object induced vision montages.
VII
Force trips.
Interstellar projection of illusionary selves
sick matrix moves that'd ruin your ankles.

There is a sense that the movies feel you need to up what people do with the force in order to impress the audience. I don't think it's making the specific characters more powerful, Just making the stuff they do seem more impressive.

[Fyraltari]

Power creep seems to be very real in star wars

IV- Choke, Guidance, mind tricks, disapearing.
V- Choke through screen (I think it was in this one?), wicked sick jump flip, floaty things, deflecting gunshots with the hand, Ghosts
VI- Lightning

I- Twirly combat, more jumps
II Visions

VI
Stopping bolts of energy mid air effortlessly.
Object induced vision montages.
VII
Force trips.
Interstellar projection of illusionary selves
sick matrix moves that'd ruin your ankles.

Visons started in V, as did telepathy and telekinesis. Ghost started in IV, at least voice ones.
How are force trips different from visions?

[The Jack]

Ghost strated in IV, at least voice ones.

good point

How are force trips different from visions?

Intensity. Anakin's visions were vague and unfocused. Rey's visions are triggered by objects and are somewhere between twice as clear and walking around in virtual reality.



Another thing I thought of (I omitted III because it wasn't much different) but III has the emperor cutting down three jedi masters easily... and that's maybe a mind-trick if you're reading some explanations.