Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

[Goblin_Priest]

My vote is on Disjunction... But not for the crimson mantle...
My guess involves Xykon's soul-hidey-place...

That does seem like a pretty straightforward tool against the Phylactery.

Also, maybe disjoining both the Crimson Mantle and the Loki Sucks hammer could summon both of these gods to talk things through?

[Squire Doodad]

That does seem like a pretty straightforward tool against the Phylactery.

Also, maybe disjoining both the Crimson Mantle and the Loki Sucks hammer could summon both of these gods to talk things through?

That's the most innovative idea I've heard for pacifying a raging Redcloak who isn't willing to listen to reason.

It’ll be a Bugsby spell of unlikely function which he has acquired and prepared with uncanny, Batman-like foresight; eg, Bugsy’s Goblin-Cleric-Punching Fist.

Bugsby's Gate-Sealing-Fist is one of the big candidates, though its unclear how it will be used.

[AutomatedTeller]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

[Squire Doodad]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

That'd be clever. I guess that's assuming there is a single "in between round" activation time that lets V cast the spell.

[Ghosty]

Timestop seems unlikely to me, because just for narrative reasons, it means that V is acting alone for a fair amount, not as part of a team.

Unless V can use it to circumvent the IFFC (IFCC?) when they next call, I suppose. Get called, stop time, leave a message for Roy, buff the party some, cast a fireball maybe? Not even clear that would work.

Since the IFCC can stop time with their soul offers, and they sound like very powerful entities within the Lower Planes, I'd just expect them to be flatly immune to Time Stop. TS just seems like the spell everyone rushes to grab at 9th level though, given the vagaries and xp cost for Wish.

The text for Disjunction's been posted already. I'd expect "takes an interest" to mean "shows up where the artifact was destroyed." And if not TDO, then who?

Edit: just want to add: disjoining the hammer so Thor'll show up too, is genius.

[Doug Lampert]

Since the IFCC can stop time with their soul offers, and they sound like very powerful entities within the Lower Planes, I'd just expect them to be flatly immune to Time Stop. TS just seems like the spell everyone rushes to grab at 9th level though, given the vagaries and xp cost for Wish.

The text for Disjunction's been posted already. I'd expect "takes an interest" to mean "shows up where the artifact was destroyed." And if not TDO, then who?

Edit: just want to add: disjoining the hammer so Thor'll show up too, is genius.

Despite the existence of NPCs allegedly immune to Time Stop, it's a meaningless ability. Time Stop has a range of self, it doesn't actually stop time, it extremely hastes you. The rest of the universe is totally unaffected so there's nothing to be immune to.

Also: Time Stop has a casting time. V can no more cast it in response to being grabbed by the IFCC prior to going to the lower planes than V can do anything else after the grab starts. The spell does not take effect till after it is cast.

[Kish]

No instantaneous spells take place during Time Stop; Vaarsuvius could not use it to cast a fireball, and conversely I don't find the "it would mean Vaarsuvius acting alone too much" argument terribly compelling. In practice, it would mean what it meant when Spliced-Vaarsuvius cast it: a single panel in which Vaarsuvius casts 3-6 self-only buffing spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

In practice, it would mean what it meant when Spliced-Vaarsuvius cast it: a single panel in which Vaarsuvius casts 3-6 self-only buffing spells.

Which is neither necessary as "more buffing happens off-panel," nor interesting to watch.

[Jasdoif]

Despite the existence of NPCs allegedly immune to Time Stop, it's a meaningless ability. Time Stop has a range of self, it doesn't actually stop time, it extremely hastes you. The rest of the universe is totally unaffected so there's nothing to be immune to.

Depends on how the alleged "immunity" is implemented, I think. If it's resolved as "you can take actions normally during the apparent time of a nearby creature's time stop or similar effect", it's really a free time stop when someone else casts time stop. With allies that can cast time stop (and possibly multiple creatures with this ability in a party), this would be fairly strong as you can get the supercharged action economy without paying for it yourself.

That would, of course, mean "immune to time stop" is a really bad description....

[Doug Lampert]

Depends on how the alleged "immunity" is implemented, I think. If it's resolved as "you can take actions normally during the apparent time of a nearby creature's time stop or similar effect", it's really a free time stop when someone else casts time stop. With allies that can cast time stop (and possibly multiple creatures with this ability in a party), this would be fairly strong as you can get the supercharged action economy without paying for it yourself.

That would, of course, mean "immune to time stop" is a really bad description....

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".

[Goblin_Priest]

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".

I'd say, within 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level of the guy casting Time Stop. ;)

[danielxcutter]

Disjunction isn't a terrible choice, and not just for the reasons already mentioned. One of the biggest reasons I hear PCs don't use it much is that it wrecks precious loot, but if V's up against the Big X and his unholy Team Evil, loot is probably the last thing on their mind, especially when said loot is giving ginormous bonuses of various types(Boots of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Protection, etc.) and it also strips them butt-naked of buffs.

Meteor Swarm is very unlikely; they've seen Xykon tank one of his own Meteor Swarms at point-blank range. Same for any other [Fire] spell, as well as [Electricity] since one of the splices mentioned liches are immune to that.

Time Stop isn't a bad choice; extra time for buffs and/or Delayed Blast Fireballs(as seen in round 2 of the ABD fight), and V can also set up other spells such as Forcecage during the Time Stop as well. Of course, Xykon can teleport out and Redcloak can Disintegrate it from the inside in the latter case, but you get what I mean.

[Fish]

To the people who have said that V won’t get a 9th level spell slot because it would make hir too powerful: I disagree, because that’s the way V used to look at spells. That is, as raw power. And to those who say a 9th-level spell doesn’t fit into the story, again I disagree. How V uses and chooses hir magic is the culmination of hir story arc.

That’s why I lean toward a Bugsy’s Hand spell. Apart from being a running gag, it’s a demonstration of the principle that brute force isn’t always the best method. It also does force damage, which is one of the things Xykon isn’t immune to.

[zimmerwald1915]

To the people who have said that V won’t get a 9th level spell slot because it would make hir too powerful: I disagree, because that’s the way V used to look at spells. That is, as raw power. And to those who say a 9th-level spell doesn’t fit into the story, again I disagree. How V uses and chooses hir magic is the culmination of hir story arc.

That’s why I lean toward a Bugsy’s Hand spell. Apart from being a running gag, it’s a demonstration of the principle that brute force isn’t always the best method. It also does force damage, which is one of the things Xykon isn’t immune to.

Y'know what else Xykon isn't immune to? Roy's sword, which almost surely does more than 2d6+12 damage.

[Doug Lampert]

Y'know what else Xykon isn't immune to? Roy's sword, which almost surely does more than 2d6+12 damage.

Yeah, the main useful effect of crushing hand is the grapple, which hinders spell casting.

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, the main useful effect of crushing hand is the grapple, which hinders spell casting.

But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

[Peelee]

But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

Redcloak, to the best of my knowledge, has no Still Spell metamagic, nor is immune to fire damage.

No reason for me to pull that out after "not against Xykon," nosirree.

[zimmerwald1915]

Redcloak

That was the implication, yes.

[Peelee]

That was the implication, yes.

[understatement]

Shouldn't V be targeting toward Xykon instead of RC?

[Peelee]

Shouldn't V be targeting toward Xykon instead of RC?

Ignoring the fact that Redcloak is an extremely powerful caster on Xykon's side, and thus a very valid and strategic target in his own right, Redcloak can heal Xykon, which is a pretty big deal.

[Jasdoif]

IIRC it's Elminster who has the immunity to time stop, and what you describe is almost certainly what they meant, but it is not given in the rules.

Technically, all being immune to timestop means is that he can't benefit from the spell.

If we go with the intended reading: What's the range on this ability? Does anyone on any plane anywhere casting timestop suddenly give the big MartyStu 1d4+1 additional rounds of action? Or do they need to be someone in the same novel? Or does it only apply if they're on the same plane? Or within some range that is picked by the author at the time that the spell is cast? Because there's nothing in the ability to tell you any of this. He's just "immune".

Hm....If this was an utterance, it'd fit right in. Quick, someone who actually knows about Elminster beyond "the wizard that whoever you play as in Baldur's Gate claims everyone knows of": write him up as a Truespeaker!

[Goblin_Priest]

But it demonstrably doesn't hinder Xykon's spellcasting.

Which is not to say Vaarsuvius won't take it, she almost certainly will. But not specifically for its usefulness against Xykon.

Sure it does. If it's cast from far enough, sure Big X can break free be self-meteor-swarming. But that means spending a turn to self-meteor-swarm. Which is not only a wated level 9 spell slot, but also a turn not spent against the Order.

When fighting an enemy team that has fewer but stronger characters, using 1 action to deny 1 action is a very efficient tactic.

[zimmerwald1915]

When fighting an enemy team that has fewer but stronger characters, using 1 action to deny 1 action is a very efficient tactic.

This is a longstanding tactic of Vaarsuvius's going back to the fight against Samantha, and developed over the course of the comic through the fights with Zz'dtri and Laurin in the last book, up to the fight against the frost giants in Passage Pass.

Doesn't mean crushing hand is the spell to do it with. Particularly as it only has a range of Medium (270 ft. at Vaarsuvius's current level).

[understatement]

Ignoring the fact that Redcloak is an extremely powerful caster on Xykon's side, and thus a very valid and strategic target in his own right, Redcloak can heal Xykon, which is a pretty big deal.

But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon (in terms of completing directing all power towards one person for the most damage)

Besides, Redcloak is alive, so a lot more spells and attacks work on him.

[Peelee]

But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon

True, but not terribly relevant; they have two enemies, not just one. Even without knowing the Plan, Redcloak is still an enormous threat in his own right, being a high-level cleric who is complicit in going for the Gates. So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule. And again, there's the healing, where Xykon can last significantly longer with Reddy than without him.

Of course, if you really think that neutralizing Xykon takes ultimate precedence, then it would behoove the Order to have some way to stop him from casting spells, which would free up others to neutralize Redcloak.

[zimmerwald1915]

So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule.

They know nothing of the kind. Durkon would have shared Thor's plan with Roy over the night following his resurrection.

EDIT: Actually, a tactic occurs. Get Durkon close to Redcloak, and lock them in a forcecage to talk things out separate from the rest of the battle. Redcloak has at most one disintegrate, which Durkon can counterspell.

[Peelee]

They know nothing of the kind. Durkon would have shared Thor's plan with Roy over the night following his resurrection.

True. I was focusing on "even without knowledge of what's going on Reddy's dangerous," and forgot recent events.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is a longstanding tactic of Vaarsuvius's going back to the fight against Samantha, and developed over the course of the comic through the fights with Zz'dtri and Laurin in the last book, up to the fight against the frost giants in Passage Pass.

Doesn't mean crushing hand is the spell to do it with. Particularly as it only has a range of Medium (270 ft. at Vaarsuvius's current level).

270ft is 265ft more than many in the party, and probably at least 240ft more than the rest. I don't expect the final battle to have both sides camping in corners at over 300ft from each other.

Heck, in our D&D games, I think 270ft can reach from corner to corner on the vinyl maps.

But every action V takes against RC is one not used against Xykon (in terms of completing directing all power towards one person for the most damage)

Besides, Redcloak is alive, so a lot more spells and attacks work on him.

If you can negate an enemy's turn, you may as well negate the most powerful enemy's turn. Why deny a level 9 spell when you can deny an epic spell? And as you said, Redcloak is susceptible to stuff Xykon isn't, like... sneak attacks. Probably hard to sneak attack a grasped foe.

[CriticalFailure]

I doubt that Durkon has told them about Thor's mission. I think that will be shown.