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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Because we like tangents I opened up a thread if we want to continue scratching our heads over how commoners gain levels original discussion.
    Farming Encounter list for reference:
    • Plowing a field - very strenuous activity that can take multiple days or even weeks. I would see an argument for gaining exp/field plowed
    • seeding a field - less strenuous but some seeds require more effort than others, also dependent on soil quality. Again potential exp/field seeded
    • pest management (toads, frogs, locusts, rats, snakes..) - um standard random encounter exp on the farm right here! 'Thar be a plague of locust coming get me my swatting hammer!"
    • Feeding animals - daily morning activity
    • healing an injured animal - potent extraordinary encounter right there.
    • finding lost animals - random encounter maybe? 'Betsy ran away again we need to find her before the wolves do!'
    • foraging for herbs - depends on level of danger involved could be an adventure arch for commoners or just normal daily hustle and bustle...
    • protecting livestock and plants from things (wild dogs, wild boar, wolves, thieves, goblins...) - again farm based encounter going from rough to epic farm ending commoner encounter...
    • managing farm hands - later on hire level commoner handles the people working for him, hard to say if this could get exp?
    • harvesting - pretty rough and effort intensive activity seems like potential for exp
    • transporting and selling farm produce. - again anywhere from same stuff different day to an adventure arch...
    • dealing with landlord - hopefully not an adventure arch but hey lots of evil money grubbing landlords out there...
    • repair/maintaining tools - probably no exp here, move along...


    I personally don't think it is reasonable that commoners, experts, and nobles can only gain exp through combat, that seems unreasonable. So sure they aren't gaining a lot of exp and maybe only 1exp/week for all the random things they go through but that still adds up...

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Its why i put most NPCs at lv 4-5 unless they're exceptionally weak or young.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    The original discussion started on the page before the one currently linked in the OP.

    --

    At any rate, if someone earns an average of 1XP per day - which isn't really that much - they gain more than enough XP to level up 3 times by the time they're 20.

    To be sure, in one's earliest years, XP gains will be minimal, but education, training, and/or apprenticing will improve those gains significantly.
    And, to be fair, there will be diminishing returns, since they won't be dealing with "encounters"/XP-worthy events of ever-increasing difficulty as they level as Adventurers/PCs do on top of the increasing XP costs to level. But diminishing returns only really kicks in after the level distribution tables are blown to hell.
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Admittedly the D&D world is more like a nightmare simulator for the basic human.
    They're food for practically everything and an incubator for the young of everything else.

    On top of that it's a world that's supposed to model a primitive pre medicine, pre hygiene, pre public education, pre private freedoms era.
    It's an ill, filthy, ignorant, indentured life.

    So finding appropriately scaling challenges might not be that hard in a world with such low life expectancy and survival rates.
    Successfully birthing a child becomes an epic feat (the event, not the game element).
    Leaving town at the first whisper of plague becomes a momentous life saving decision.
    Just not getting eaten when going to the city for supplies is impressive to the point of absurdity given the encounter charts.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    I agree that everyone automatically gains xp over time, and this is why I rule it as impossible for a middle aged person to be below level 6 etc.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    My understanding is that commoners do gain XP, but veeery slowly: the average person doesn't reach more than level 2 or 3 in their entire life, and some never get past level 1. Also, most people are effectively "level 0" until they reach the age of majority. So that comes out at about 1XP per 1-2 weeks on average, based on the human lifespan. It would make sense for the longer-lived races to be higher level in old age though, although mostly extremely unoptimised.

    EDIT: in fact, it says this in the DMG, p.107. "most commoners never attain higher than 2nd or 3rd level in their whole lives".
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-04-13 at 12:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    First, I'd like to quote a post I made in the original thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    In D&D, you don't get experience for every creature killed, every social encounter, every challenge—only exceptional ones. A game where the DM handed out XP for winning arguments and other common challenges would be much different than most (and not just because the DM was rewarding things other than fighting).
    Of course, the "exceptional challenge" clause makes it inconvenient to figure out how much XP peasants "should" be getting, since "exceptional" is really tough to define. That said, it does make sense that some people would be getting vastly more XP than others. Some people are exceptionally unlucky, and run into exceptional challenges on a regular basis, but most people probably don't run into anything exceptionally challenging for years at a time.
    Short version for people quoting me: You don't get XP for every little action, only exceptional challenges.


    Responding specifically to the Farming Encounter List:

    • Basic farm work is strenuous. That doesn't make it challenging*, and certainly not exceptionally challenging. (Compare e.g. overland travel—often strenuous, but not worth XP until you encounter wandering monsters and the like.) I could see turning raw wilderness into a farm earning you some "quest XP," but you wouldn't get that every year.
    • Pest management only counts as combat if the pests fight back. If they don't, it's basically just another strenuous but non-challenging task.
    • PCs don't get XP for healing each others' wounds; why would farmers get XP for healing their farm animals?
    • Finding lost animals is not automatically exceptional enough to warrant XP. That said, if finding the lost animal took some exceptional effort for whatever reason, it could be worth "quest XP".
    • Foraging for herbs: How could this be "an adventure arch for commoners"? It's just another thing you do! Not everything is an adventure, not even if you're an adventurer!
    • Protecting livestock from predators could definitely earn XP.
    • Adventurers can't hire people to do adventures and get XP from that. Why would people get XP from hiring people to do things that don't earn XP? (An exceptional labor negotiation encounter could get some XP, but it has to be exceptional, not just basic haggling.)
    • Dealing with the landlord works basically the same way as dealing with labor, only in reverse.



    *I mean, it's difficult, but that's not the same as challenging. I realize they're synonyms, but I'm using "challenging" to mean a fairly certain kind of difficulty.



    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Also, most people are effectively "level 0" until they reach the age of majority. So that comes out at about 1XP per 1-2 weeks on average, based on the human lifespan.
    How many XP does it take to go from level 0 to level 1? It sounds like you think it's around 1,000, which strikes me as an odd assumption, given that that's the cost to go from level 1 to 2 and XP costs go up with each level.
    I'd also argue that childhood doesn't work the same way as adulthood, because I have been both a child and an adult. Learning the basics of a skill or a skill-set is almost as simple as watching someone else do it and pitching in when they need a spare set of hands; mastering a skill or skill-set requires a lot of practice. That's the difference between level 1 and higher levels.
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    One of the interesting consequences of giving NPCs CP based on how long they've been doing their job is that some of the fluff for longer lived races (the "dwarves and elves are just better than humans" stuff) becomes more codified.


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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Even if you want to say commoners gain enough XP in their daily life to level a few times (and I think that makes sense) it's clearly not intended within the game itself that most regular people will pose much of a threat to even low level PCs. Hence they must not get much XP. I mean, if the most you can expect out of the average horde of goblins are level 8 leaders (and goblins probably face level appropriate threats and challenges more often, being a very combat focused society), then I imagine the average commoner or expert or even most aristocrats probably only reach level 3 in their life time. It might be slightly higher for warriors and aristocrats more involved in military matters, but then they probably die more often, so who can say. But seriously, if a level 2 fighter in his prime can routinely get beaten up by middle aged farmers, there's something screwy with your XP calculations. The way I see it, for NPC classed individuals, level is more of a measurement of skill.

    To paraphrase the DMG, there's a difference between a blacksmith that's a 3rd level commoner and one that's a 20th level expert. But in most cases, it's intended to represent a difference in skill at a task, not that the world's greatest blacksmith has also become a mighty warrior spending his life hunched over an anvil. It's just that 3.X doesn't represent that very well. All that to say, I think you should keep the majority of people, especially those with commoner levels, under level 5.
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Im with GreatWyrm on this. Being a medieval farmer doesnt net you D&D XP because doing farming as a PC also doesnt net you XP (prof farmer during down time...). Its a different sort of experience.

    Levels and experience in D&D improve your encounter abilities. Your health goes up, your skills go up, your attack bonus, saves, even damage goes up. You get class abilities that help you with either skills or combat. Some of this MAY help you be a better farmer, but not as directly as it helps you become a better monster killer/king charmer.

    Similarly, I am sure commoners do earn a lot of experience being a farmer, but it goes into the farmer subclass, which doesnt get them more health, more saves, more skills, but does make them better at spotting when the turnips are ripe. They are orthogonal tracks for experience. One called XP (for combat and stuff) and one called... um... experience I guess?

    I make my NPCs level 2-10 (2 for peasants, 3 for basic craftsmen and shop keepers, 5 for guards, 6 for hedge mages and alchemists, 7 for generic battle mages, 10 for soldiers), and then special NPCs get class levels and go up to about level 16. But thats because I wanted a certain feel to my world where even attacking a farmsted is dangerous for a low level party. The theme of my world is more viking than it is medieval. You wander through Britain in AD 600, you will have a bad time attacking a farm, as everyone guards their own plot of land. You do the same in AD 1200 and now feudal lords protect the farms, and the peasants just farm them. So in my world, peasants got experience from surviving raids, and defending their land. Not from working it.

    If you want to illustrate commoner experience gain, do it in bonus skill points that can exceed level cap. A 20 year old farmer will be a level 1 commoner with 4 ranks in prof farmer and maybe a few ranks in knowledge geog, while a 50 year old farmer (human for all of this btw) might have 8 ranks in prof farmer, and 5 ranks in knowledge geog. But he is still a level 1 commoner and still falls over in a light breeze.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    From the "10 signs the DM is too nasty and wicked":
    Most of Commoners have 20 HD, and many of them using Power Word Kill.
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2019-04-13 at 05:28 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    I feel like, to add to GreatWyrmGold's point, that d20 D&D has an in-game mechanical mechanism for people undergoing countless events that could potentially involve rolls, but not gaining XP: Taking 10. Most people in D&D game worlds, including adventurers, are taking 10 something like 99% of the time, and most of the rest of the time they are super thorough and take 20. Adventurers take 10 when wandering around town, when conducting mundane camping tasks, maintaining equipment, and countless others things that they don't gain XP for and so do normal people. XP only comes into play when a character faces a situation in which they would actually roll a skill (and attacking is, ultimately, just a highly specialized form of skill).

    This can probably most easily be illustrated using the example of an artisan, like a blacksmith. The average village blacksmith spends his days making the same things over and over. Nails, pots, horseshoes, scythes, etc, and this produces no real demand on his skills. He occasionally gets given a more difficult task like making a fine knife that still lies with his capabilities but might take multiple attempts to get right. Very rarely he gets commissioned to do something he doesn't really know how to do - like make a complex lock or repair an exotic weapon and has to actually roll this. Equally rarely the village faces some severe crisis and maybe he has to pump out as many spears as possible to arm the militia before orcs arrive and this also requires a roll. some of these rolls will be failures, some of them will be successes, and XP will be attained but unique jobs and immanent crises are rare events and might be experienced only a couple of times each year. Also, they're unlikely to scale with level. A blacksmith who's a Level 1 Expert might churn through CR 1 smithing challenges at a rate of one a quarter, and thus hit level two in 3-4 years, but as a level 2 blacksmith he's still going to face mostly level 1 smithing challenges, so level gain is going to go down in rate very rapidly and by level 5-6 most artisans will struggle to find any challenges capable of providing them XP at all unless they go work for a high-ranking noble with unusual demands - but even the leading nobility only need so many suits of armor, so the kingdom can only have so many master armorers. There's only so much challenge to go around.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    There is level 24 commoners for a reason: when on your trip to town you have to defeat a tarrasque, retreat from a dragon, encounter a pyro cryo learnean supersonic flying hydra demilich (can not be decapitated by lack of a neck) and somehow still survive you probably gain one or more levels.
    Then there is all the hard daily encounters in your farm like subduing the tarrasque after your house cat rampaged so much it freed the tarrasque(then subduing the house cat which sadly is not nearly as much rewarded by the xp system) surviving the constant stream of billions of bandits with elaborate siege weaponry, massive caster support and generals so charismatic each bandit is ready to die for the cause of banditism,(it is how bandits survive: else they would get killed by the local dragon, the local itilidths, the local vecna sect populated with demiliches, the hordes of crazy balors that all carries wells of many worlds and tries to put spheres of annihilation within those and so on)

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    First, I'd like to quote a post I made in the original thread:


    Short version for people quoting me: You don't get XP for every little action, only exceptional challenges.


    Responding specifically to the Farming Encounter List:

    • Basic farm work is strenuous. That doesn't make it challenging*, and certainly not exceptionally challenging. (Compare e.g. overland travel—often strenuous, but not worth XP until you encounter wandering monsters and the like.) I could see turning raw wilderness into a farm earning you some "quest XP," but you wouldn't get that every year.
    • Pest management only counts as combat if the pests fight back. If they don't, it's basically just another strenuous but non-challenging task.
    • PCs don't get XP for healing each others' wounds; why would farmers get XP for healing their farm animals?
    • Finding lost animals is not automatically exceptional enough to warrant XP. That said, if finding the lost animal took some exceptional effort for whatever reason, it could be worth "quest XP".
    • Foraging for herbs: How could this be "an adventure arch for commoners"? It's just another thing you do! Not everything is an adventure, not even if you're an adventurer!
    • Protecting livestock from predators could definitely earn XP.
    • Adventurers can't hire people to do adventures and get XP from that. Why would people get XP from hiring people to do things that don't earn XP? (An exceptional labor negotiation encounter could get some XP, but it has to be exceptional, not just basic haggling.)
    • Dealing with the landlord works basically the same way as dealing with labor, only in reverse.



    *I mean, it's difficult, but that's not the same as challenging. I realize they're synonyms, but I'm using "challenging" to mean a fairly certain kind of difficulty.




    How many XP does it take to go from level 0 to level 1? It sounds like you think it's around 1,000, which strikes me as an odd assumption, given that that's the cost to go from level 1 to 2 and XP costs go up with each level.
    I'd also argue that childhood doesn't work the same way as adulthood, because I have been both a child and an adult. Learning the basics of a skill or a skill-set is almost as simple as watching someone else do it and pitching in when they need a spare set of hands; mastering a skill or skill-set requires a lot of practice. That's the difference between level 1 and higher levels.
    Actually, it's implied that every task does grant xp, but non challenging ones grant less than 0.5 xp, which is rounded down for pcs for simplicity.

    If you want to use "challenging" though, you are out of luck, as it IS defined by how strenuous it is. A moderately challenging task is supposed to be one that can be repeated exactly four times before requiring rest. However, commoner professions DO enforce rest. As such, by DnD definition, a day of labour would give do equivalent to 4 challenging encounters. As I have just convinced myself to raise average level in my setting even higher.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Actually that's a good point: ome of tue consequences ofnrandom settlement gemeration rules is that commoners are not only by far the most frequent class presemt, they're also generally by far the highest-level present. They got that XP somehow.


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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    some things I'd expect to result in real xp gain:

    dealing with dangerous disease/plagues.
    dealing with major natural disasters (severe blizzard, hurricane)
    especially things that lead to crop failure/starvation risk.

    dealing with ornery animals (death amongst farmers, while rare, does happen some both in modern and ancient times, it's definitely an occupation with some risks)

    construction/housing accidents

    dealing with major fires.
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    I think that the real question here is 'Do you actually want the consequences of this in your campaign?'. D&D of any edition is really based around the idea of the base population being almost completely un-leveled, with only notable exceptions (heroes, villains, and rulers) acquiring any actual personal power, despite what may be printed in an oft-ignored chart in he back of the DMG.

    If you choose to not ignore that chart (god help you) then you have to accept a number of consequences that are not accounted for in any setting that I'm aware of (at least if you want to maintain any sense of 'realism' in your campaign. Why else would you be thinking about this sort of thing?). First, you have to accept that either the vast majority of the population are village-idiot level morons (for choosing to actually put level increases into commoner), or that people in your world are incapable of choosing their class levels/multiclassing (and so unable to choose anything but commoner). Then you would have to admit that passive xp gain is a thing in your campaign world. Every period of downtime or narrative time-skip now has to be accounted for in the xp totals of the PCs. If the daily life of a commoner is enough to be rewarded then the downtime shenanigans of PCs should be vastly greater, to say nothing of the xp rewards for spell research and other such great works.

    Now you need to completely restructure every society in your world to be a gerontocracy. Not only do old people gain in sensory acuity (Wis), cognitive capacity (Int), and general attractiveness (Cha), but they actually have gains in physical durability (HD) as well as martial (BAB) and spiritual (saves and skill caps) capability of several magnitudes over someone in the 'prime' of their life, much like dragons of myth and legend . A greatsword hit that would outright kill an 18 y/o soldier could easily be shrugged off with a chuckle by his (great)grandfather. In this world all young people should be back on their farms/homesteads slowly grinding up xp and breeding, while their hyper-competent nigh transhuman elder relatives handily take care of any threats. If the young don't like the status quo they are effectively powerless to change it. Even the ones who brave the dangers of the world to power-level as adventurers will have to come back to face the ever increasing hordes of super-geezers (increasing HD and saves mean there is actually less chance of death as one gets older on this world).

    This may not be what you want, but it would be the consequence of these mechanical realities. Is pursuing this in an actual game really worth it? Are you (and your players) comfortable with ignoring these consequences? What do you think it adds to gameplay?
    Last edited by Quarian Rex; 2019-04-13 at 08:47 AM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    How many XP does it take to go from level 0 to level 1? It sounds like you think it's around 1,000, which strikes me as an odd assumption, given that that's the cost to go from level 1 to 2 and XP costs go up with each level.
    I'd also argue that childhood doesn't work the same way as adulthood, because I have been both a child and an adult. Learning the basics of a skill or a skill-set is almost as simple as watching someone else do it and pitching in when they need a spare set of hands; mastering a skill or skill-set requires a lot of practice. That's the difference between level 1 and higher levels.
    I didn't mean that getting to level 1 by the age of majority comes out at 1XP per 1-2 week, I meant that as far as I'm aware you're not normally assumed to gain XP at all as a child, for similar reasons to those you give. javcs said

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    if someone earns an average of 1XP per day - which isn't really that much - they gain more than enough XP to level up 3 times by the time they're 20.
    which assumes that you start gaining XP from the day you're born: I was disagreeing with that. I probably could have made that clearer to be fair.

    The 1XP per 1-2 weeks figure was based on the assumption that you start gaining XP at around age 15, and live to perhaps 55-65 as "Most people in the world at large die from pestilence, accidents, infections, or violence before getting to venerable age".

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    Actually, it's implied that every task does grant xp, but non challenging ones grant less than 0.5 xp, which is rounded down for pcs for simplicity.

    If you want to use "challenging" though, you are out of luck, as it IS defined by how strenuous it is. A moderately challenging task is supposed to be one that can be repeated exactly four times before requiring rest. However, commoner professions DO enforce rest. As such, by DnD definition, a day of labour would give do equivalent to 4 challenging encounters.
    There's actually more to a "challenging encounter" than that. That definition would make a few hours of anything including sitting around a challenging encounter as you will need to go to sleep at the end of the day.

    You're supposed to be able to do 4ish challenging encounters because each encounter is supposed to take ~20% of your resources. After a full day of farm labor a skilled farmer has hopefully taken no HP damage and hasn't used and significant consumables and has no spells of similar 1/day abilities they have consumed ~0% of their party resources meaning they had only trivial encounters.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    It's simply put: the the game the D&D is. D&D is a combat adventure game with the focus on a small group of people. And that is it.

    Commoners and the vast majority of NPCs are there as background and support for the player characters.

    The vast majority of NPCs are pure role playing characters: they need no game mechanics. They just need a role playing write up. This type of NPC will never do anything using game mechanics.

    A small number of NPC will directly interact with the player characters and use game mechanics. And, for the most part, this type of NPC will just use the player character game mechanic rules.

    The rest that are left really only need mechanics if they are caught in the ''crossfire" of the mechanical game. This is what 3X tried to do....poorly...with the NPC classes. But having classes that can only get XP by combat, that can't engage in combat, is stupid.

    It's just the tip of an iceberg to a whole other Non-D&D game. A game where characters have classes and can gain xp by doing this and over coming challanges with all most zero combat.

    And such a game would be a lot less character focused, and much more focused on a bigger picture. And it would look at lot more like SimCity or other such simulation type games. Nothing even close to D&D.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    I think that the real question here is 'Do you actually want the consequences of this in your campaign?'. D&D of any edition is really based around the idea of the base population being almost completely un-leveled, with only notable exceptions (heroes, villains, and rulers) acquiring any actual personal power, despite what may be printed in an oft-ignored chart in he back of the DMG.

    If you choose to not ignore that chart (god help you) then you have to accept a number of consequences that are not accounted for in any setting that I'm aware of (at least if you want to maintain any sense of 'realism' in your campaign. Why else would you be thinking about this sort of thing?). First, you have to accept that either the vast majority of the population are village-idiot level morons (for choosing to actually put level increases into commoner), or that people in your world are incapable of choosing their class levels/multiclassing (and so unable to choose anything but commoner). Then you would have to admit that passive xp gain is a thing in your campaign world. Every period of downtime or narrative time-skip now has to be accounted for in the xp totals of the PCs. If the daily life of a commoner is enough to be rewarded then the downtime shenanigans of PCs should be vastly greater, to say nothing of the xp rewards for spell research and other such great works.

    Now you need to completely restructure every society in your world to be a gerontocracy. Not only do old people gain in sensory acuity (Wis), cognitive capacity (Int), and general attractiveness (Cha), but they actually have gains in physical durability (HD) as well as martial (BAB) and spiritual (saves and skill caps) capability of several magnitudes over someone in the 'prime' of their life, much like dragons of myth and legend . A greatsword hit that would outright kill an 18 y/o soldier could easily be shrugged off with a chuckle by his (great)grandfather. In this world all young people should be back on their farms/homesteads slowly grinding up xp and breeding, while their hyper-competent nigh transhuman elder relatives handily take care of any threats. If the young don't like the status quo they are effectively powerless to change it. Even the ones who brave the dangers of the world to power-level as adventurers will have to come back to face the ever increasing hordes of super-geezers (increasing HD and saves mean there is actually less chance of death as one gets older on this world).

    This may not be what you want, but it would be the consequence of these mechanical realities. Is pursuing this in an actual game really worth it? Are you (and your players) comfortable with ignoring these consequences? What do you think it adds to gameplay?
    My campaigns have always gone with the assumption that the levelling capabilities of pcs is completely normal. And so there are plenty of high level characters. Including epic level commoners. In fact, I rule that monsters with INT of 3 or higher are literally incapable of not having class levels, unless they are children. I like the world having that level of background power (and yes, you are incapable of choosing your class without training), (but I also have ruled that every class has advantages over others, so commoner is a bit different).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    There's actually more to a "challenging encounter" than that. That definition would make a few hours of anything including sitting around a challenging encounter as you will need to go to sleep at the end of the day.

    You're supposed to be able to do 4ish challenging encounters because each encounter is supposed to take ~20% of your resources. After a full day of farm labor a skilled farmer has hopefully taken no HP damage and hasn't used and significant consumables and has no spells of similar 1/day abilities they have consumed ~0% of their party resources meaning they had only trivial encounters.
    Fair enough. So, it would be a lot longer than a day, but they still do use up resources over time and are thus earning xp.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    I think that the real question here is 'Do you actually want the consequences of this in your campaign?'. D&D of any edition is really based around the idea of the base population being almost completely un-leveled, with only notable exceptions (heroes, villains, and rulers) acquiring any actual personal power, despite what may be printed in an oft-ignored chart in he back of the DMG.

    If you choose to not ignore that chart (god help you) then you have to accept a number of consequences that are not accounted for in any setting that I'm aware of (at least if you want to maintain any sense of 'realism' in your campaign. Why else would you be thinking about this sort of thing?). First, you have to accept that either the vast majority of the population are village-idiot level morons (for choosing to actually put level increases into commoner), or that people in your world are incapable of choosing their class levels/multiclassing (and so unable to choose anything but commoner). Then you would have to admit that passive xp gain is a thing in your campaign world. Every period of downtime or narrative time-skip now has to be accounted for in the xp totals of the PCs. If the daily life of a commoner is enough to be rewarded then the downtime shenanigans of PCs should be vastly greater, to say nothing of the xp rewards for spell research and other such great works.

    Now you need to completely restructure every society in your world to be a gerontocracy. Not only do old people gain in sensory acuity (Wis), cognitive capacity (Int), and general attractiveness (Cha), but they actually have gains in physical durability (HD) as well as martial (BAB) and spiritual (saves and skill caps) capability of several magnitudes over someone in the 'prime' of their life, much like dragons of myth and legend . A greatsword hit that would outright kill an 18 y/o soldier could easily be shrugged off with a chuckle by his (great)grandfather. In this world all young people should be back on their farms/homesteads slowly grinding up xp and breeding, while their hyper-competent nigh transhuman elder relatives handily take care of any threats. If the young don't like the status quo they are effectively powerless to change it. Even the ones who brave the dangers of the world to power-level as adventurers will have to come back to face the ever increasing hordes of super-geezers (increasing HD and saves mean there is actually less chance of death as one gets older on this world).

    This may not be what you want, but it would be the consequence of these mechanical realities. Is pursuing this in an actual game really worth it? Are you (and your players) comfortable with ignoring these consequences? What do you think it adds to gameplay?

    I dont think this is as big an issue as you make it out to be. The average commoner will have 10-11 Str Dex and Con in their youth. The Great Grandpa is probably rocking a -3 penalty to his Con at this point meaning he would likely not even have 20 hp depending on his level. So yeah a 8-10 hp lvl 1 soldier might die to the hit that doesnt kill the grandpa but its not that massive a gap. likewise the penalties to Str Dex and Con from aging offset the saves and attack bonus a bit (elderly commoners will have decent will saves from their wisdom tho).

    I checked the aging and commoner charts and an 11 wisdom, level 20 commoner of Venerable age will be rocking a +8 will save. +10 BAB but with -6 penalty to their str from aging meaning they likely have a Str of 4. So a +7 to hit with whatever pitiful thing he can manage to lift to be able to swing. The -6 to Dex and Con mean -3 to Fort and Ref so those saves will only be +3, barely better than the good saves of a lvl 1 character, and this is a lvl 20 commoner. That Con penalty also means hes only getting 1hp per HD (20d4 - 60 HP).

    So yeah based on the info above I think you might have exaggerated a bit just how much of a "problem" this makes. Lvl 2 PCs could likely handle a lvl 20 commoner fairly easily. Probably even Level 1 PCs thanks to action economy advantage, tbh.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    Actually, it's implied that every task does grant xp, but non challenging ones grant less than 0.5 xp, which is rounded down for pcs for simplicity.
    Where?

    If you want to use "challenging" though, you are out of luck, as it IS defined by how strenuous it is. A moderately challenging task is supposed to be one that can be repeated exactly four times before requiring rest. However, commoner professions DO enforce rest. As such, by DnD definition, a day of labour would give do equivalent to 4 challenging encounters. As I have just convinced myself to raise average level in my setting even higher.
    That implies that two hours of overland travel, spell research, or crafting should count as a challenging encounter. Yet PCs don't get XP for any of that, do they?
    Challenging encounters are strenuous; this does not mean that strenuous encounters are challenging.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    Fair enough. So, it would be a lot longer than a day, but they still do use up resources over time and are thus earning xp.
    A PC spending a month carousing in local taverns is also using up resources. Does that PC get XP for that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    First, you have to accept that either the vast majority of the population are village-idiot level morons (for choosing to actually put level increases into commoner), or that people in your world are incapable of choosing their class levels/multiclassing (and so unable to choose anything but commoner).
    ...which is why I've always wished the NPC classes had some kind of class features that would make them better farmers/laborers/craftsmen than, say, a barbarian or a rogue.
    Given the complete lack of NPC classes in 5e, I've been thinking of brewing up one or two with such class features. Of course, given that NPCs don't seem consistently bound by the same class/level/ability restrictions as PCs, it might be pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    First, you have to accept that either the vast majority of the population are village-idiot level morons (for choosing to actually put level increases into commoner), or that people in your world are incapable of choosing their class levels/multiclassing (and so unable to choose anything but commoner).
    This feels like a very metagame-y approach to mechanics here. Levels and classes are just abstractions to represent what a character's skills and abilities are, so a guy with 7 levels in commoner is a guy whose abilities and experiences are best represented by giving him 7 levels of commoner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    Then you would have to admit that passive xp gain is a thing in your campaign world.
    Not necessarily. If you were to say something like, "Adventurers gain XP for adventuring; commoners gain XP for common-ing," I don't really see any problems with that (other than the obvious grammatical problem with using "common" as a verb).

    I also don't think it's fair to call this whole thing "passive XP gain." The idea isn't that everyone should just slowly accrue XP over time: the idea is that we should assume that everyone is at least occasionally facing challenges that are worth XP, and we can kind of simulate that with a simple formula like "1 XP / day."

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    Now you need to completely restructure every society in your world to be a gerontocracy. Not only do old people gain in sensory acuity (Wis), cognitive capacity (Int), and general attractiveness (Cha), but they actually have gains in physical durability (HD) as well as martial (BAB) and spiritual (saves and skill caps) capability of several magnitudes over someone in the 'prime' of their life, much like dragons of myth and legend.
    There's a decent argument for that. But, the gerontocracy may not be all that inevitable, because there are also penalties that come with old age. An old guy who gets +3 Wis from his old age is also taking -6 Con from his old age. So, consider a 1st-level young guy and a 7th-level old guy who both start with 11's in all stats. The 1st-level young guy has a total attack bonus of +0, 1d6 damage with a club, base saves of +0/+0/+0, AC 10, 4 hit points, and 11 in all stats. The 7th-level old guy has a total attack bonus of +0 (+3 BAB, -3 Str), 1d6-3 damage with a club, base saves of -1/-1/+4, AC 7, 7 hit points, and Str/Dex/Con 5, Int/Wis/Cha 14 (and a +1 to one stat).

    {Ninja'd}

    So, I think the young guys can hold their own against the old guys.

    What I think it would really mean is that the average NPC's base stats are more important than their levels in the commoner class (i.e., nature is more important than nurture): in a game where all commoners are 7th level or lower, a 1st-level commoner with 13 Str could very well be the best martial combatant among them.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2019-04-13 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    If you were to say something like, "Adventurers gain XP for adventuring; commoners gain XP for common-ing," I don't really see any problems with that (other than the obvious grammatical problem with using "common" as a verb).
    Obviously it would be "Commonering".

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    despite what may be printed in an oft-ignored chart in he back of the DMG.
    What chart are you referring to here?
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-04-13 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    ...which is why I've always wished the NPC classes had some kind of class features that would make them better farmers/laborers/craftsmen than, say, a barbarian or a rogue.
    This is the big problem with 3E D&D: The NPC classes don't get anything useful to their class and are still stuck in the Only Combat D&D game.

    Even an easy fix: NPC classes get a Base Skill Bonus, NOT a base attack bonus.

    For a bit more you need to add class skills, feats, and even magic. And a whole non combat game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post

    I also don't think it's fair to call this whole thing "passive XP gain." The idea isn't that everyone should just slowly accrue XP over time: the idea is that we should assume that everyone is at least occasionally facing challenges that are worth XP, and we can kind of simulate that with a simple formula like "1 XP / day."
    I think it's fine to say everyone gets life expereince and learns something everyday of 1 XP. After all, it's not a lot, and they won't even go up a level.

    It's the challanges in life that really give you the XP though. I think the great example here is the 'eueka moment'. You know...when you have a problem/challange that you can't figure out......and then, suddenly, you DO figure it out. You get that rush of ''of course" or ''oh, that is what I was doing wrong".....that rush is XP.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Obviously it would be "Commonering".
    Believe it or not, that's what I wrote first, but then I realized that I'd have to write "adventurer-ing" to maintain parallel structure, and I wasn't prepared to do that.

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    It's the challanges in life that really give you the XP though. I think the great example here is the 'eueka moment'. You know...when you have a problem/challange that you can't figure out......and then, suddenly, you DO figure it out. You get that rush of ''of course" or ''oh, that is what I was doing wrong".....that rush is XP.
    That makes sense, it would explain among other things how you can have something like a 20th level blacksmith. If you're utterly decidated to your chosen craft or profession, if you spend every second you can spare thinking and working to become better at it, you get a lot of XP because you have a lot of eureka moments, without ever having to fight anybody.

    Still doesn't explain why you're better at fighting than most veteran soldiers, but hey, you can't have everything ;)

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    Default Re: Mudfarming, Commoners Inevitability gain exp

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    ...which is why I've always wished the NPC classes had some kind of class features that would make them better farmers/laborers/craftsmen than, say, a barbarian or a rogue.
    Given the complete lack of NPC classes in 5e, I've been thinking of brewing up one or two with such class features. Of course, given that NPCs don't seem consistently bound by the same class/level/ability restrictions as PCs, it might be pointless.
    How about the Master class from the War of the Lance?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    This is the big problem with 3E D&D: The NPC classes don't get anything useful to their class and are still stuck in the Only Combat D&D game.
    There is double untruth there:
    1. The "don't get anything useful" - Adept gets Familiar (and may qualify for Hexer PrC), Expert - open class skill selection made it popular choice for pre-Factotum skillmonkeys; Aristocrat is about the only class which can make WbLmancy at 1st level; and even Commoner still gets Handle Animal (Bubs!), and may qualify to Survivor at 2nd level
    2. "the Only Combat D&D game" - not all games of D&D are "Only Combat": for example, intrigue game shouldn't include too much of combat; and for "monster survival" game, Combat is a failure
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2019-04-13 at 02:32 PM.

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