Mass Combat Rules

[Grey Paladin]

Hey,

I am going to start a military campaign in two weeks but I cannot find a decent set of mass combat rules, preferring to avoid homebrewing the whole thing (given the fact we are already playing a heavily modified version of E6 that I still need to sort out a few problems in) I was wondering if anyone can direct me to what I seek.

Thanks ahead.

[Kyeudo]

Heroes of Battle has a few good rules for it. IIRC, you can A) Decide how the battle will go without the intervention of the PCs and only make rolls for those that encounter the PCs, B) assign victory points to different battle field features and then use opposed rolls, adding the victory point total of each army, to decide how the battle goes in each general area, with the PCs running around securing victory points for their side.

[CrazedGoblin]

Heroes of Battle has a few good rules for it. IIRC, you can A) Decide how the battle will go without the intervention of the PCs and only make rolls for those that encounter the PCs, B) assign victory points to different battle field features and then use opposed rolls, adding the victory point total of each army, to decide how the battle goes in each general area, with the PCs running around securing victory points for their side.

never thought of victory points thats quite a cool idea

[Grey Paladin]

That would work fine if the PCs were simply taking part in the battle, however, in my campaign they will be in command after the first few levels.

The only thing I've thought of so far is creating "swarms" of soldiers and letting the PCs command them, but I'd prefer a more elegant/interesting solution.

[Rogue 7]

Depends on the size of the battles you're reenacting. If it's massive, campaign-driven stuff, something like a modified Axis and Allies would work quite well. If it's midsized battles, and if any of your group have the resources, you could try wargaming. Specifically, Warhammer, but if you have the resources, a system I've played called Des Belles Antiquitas gives a great quick battle, and takes up almost no space. It's 15 mm, and should give a good tactical battle for both sides involved.

[Mad Wizard]

A little off topic: what is E6? I've heard something about modified low-level play, but could someone give me a link to the rules?

Back on topic: I would also recommend Heroes of Battle. It was very useful for my military-based game.

[Grey Paladin]

Rogue 7:
My battles are going to be fairly accurate in scale to medieval ones, so, at most, 500 per a side, the average being around 200, with troops separated into groups of 28 each.

I thank you for your suggestions but I am specifically looking for something that was created for D&D/D20 - I doubt those systems were built with effects like Wind Wall in mind.

Mad Wizard:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206323

I am actually playing "E7" with these variants:

Advancement:
Advancement up to level 7 is done normally

After level 7 the character do not level up anymore

Each time the character gains 5000 EXP the character gains an additional hit point and a feat

Characters add the number of feats they have gained as a result of this method to their BAB for the purpose of feat prerequisites.

Whenever a character would gain a feat as a result of this method, that character must pick one of his classes- for the purpose of answering feat prerequisites that character is counted one level higher in the chosen class.

Unless stated otherwise, all feats may be taken multiple times and stack with themselves

Rule Modifications:

The melee damage you deal is increased or reduced based on your (Strength Score) - 10 (Strength does not follows the modifier system for any purpose but skills)

Dexterity effects both AB and AC (Strength does not effects AB)

Characters always gain their full hit die to their hit points, and add their Constitution to their hit die at first level
(A first level rogue with 10 CON would have 16 HP, a first level Barbarian with 18 CON would have 34 HP)

If a character would take 10 or more damage from an AoO that character must make a fortitude save equal to the damage he took or lose the rest of his movement

Ranged Weapons have a threat range.

Moving into, in, or out of, a Threatened area invokes an AoO

You may not make more then a single Ranged AoO against a single target per a round.

Move Silently and Hide are folded into Sneak

Disable Device and Open Lock are folded into Disable Device

Spot and Listen are folded into Perceive

Multiclassing:
Multiclassed characters are capped at level 6, you may not multiclass at level 7.

Character Generation:
The "Controlled Chaos" S&S variant, 32 points.

[CharlieRock]

Why not try the Book of 'War'.

[Grey Paladin]

Why not try the Book of 'War'.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Crow]

www.farlandworld.com/battle.html

You could try that. You can save armies or companies...however large you want the units, and resolve it with that.

[Grey Paladin]

www.farlandworld.com/battle.html

You could try that. You can save armies or companies...however large you want the units, and resolve it with that.

Thanks, but I wanted a system more based on skill then raw luck, and for the PCs to actually command troops.

[Crow]

Did you even try the download?

[Matthew]

Rogue 7:
My battles are going to be fairly accurate in scale to medieval ones, so, at most, 500 per a side, the average being around 200, with troops separated into groups of 28 each.

That doesn't sound very accurate 'in scale' to medieval battles to me. Medieval skirmishes, maybe, but not battles.

[Grey Paladin]

Matthew:

Perhaps my sources are wrong (which is very possible, as they are only history majors, not professors or researchers) but as far as I know most battles in the northen west (my inspiration) were in such scale due to the feudal system.

Crow:
Yes, I did, and this is not what I am looking for, thanks.

[Matthew]

Are you referring to North West England/Britain or Europe? Depends on what you want to categorise as a battle and what period you are looking at. The 'Feudal System' was capable of raising large numbers of soldiers, though it was itself a mutable concept.
Hastings (1066), Battle of the Standard (1138), Crecy (1346), Agincourt (1415), etc... were all fought between thousands of men. Medieval armies could range anywhere from a few thousand to thirty thousand or more. An individual's retinue, though, would number in the hundreds.

According to Riley-Smith, there were about 5,000 Knight's Fees in England in 1100 and at least 50,000 in France and the French speaking Imperial territories. The total number of men under arms might be anywhere up to ten times that.

[Grey Paladin]

Europe, and if what you are saying is true then it seems I am gravely mistaken- ho well, it won't be the first time realism is sacrificed for the greater good.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

[sikyon]

What I would do:

1) Individual comabts only occur around PC's

2) Formations of troops are composed of uniform and identical soilders. Each formation is treated as an separate unit. Each formation will be massed as a square, and move as such. During combat, only the front of each unit will fight (units with longspears could fight with the first 2 rows though). They get Aid another bonuses = number of ranks behind each model. This is basically warhammer fantasy, and a relativly easy way to model it.

However, soilders don't HAVE to be uniform and identical. Ie. you could have elite units armed with spears/shortswords/tower sheilds. The front rank fights with shortsword and get's the AC bonus from tower sheild, and second rank gets to fight with spears until the first rank falls, then they move forward. Etc. Just assign different formations to each of your players, and take control of the enemy formations. This will take quite awhile for combat, though. Still, epic battle = time. For speed's sake, only grant them ~10 seconds to move their formations each round. Etc.

Edit:

Actually, you could just roll for strengths of the armies and have them oppose each other. This would also be more realistic because it's very unrealistic for the PC's to be able to know what all units are doing at the same time, especially in the middle of combat, and still command them effectively (war gets loud). Unless they were hooked up with magical communicators or something, and had a constant scrying on the battlefield being telepathically transmitted to them or something.

[DraPrime]

As many people have suggested, get Heroes of Battle. It's going to be really hard to run it without that book. Complete Warrior has a nice little section in the back that's pretty useful, but it's more about designing adventures than actually using rules, but it's still useful. The miniature's handbook also has some nice stuff about mass battles. Combine those 3 books together and it should be pretty easy from there. Use Heroes of Battle, and then add/modify a little bit with Complete Warrior and Miniature's Handbook.

[Shas aia Toriia]

In terms of strategy, Complete Warrior had some good tactics. It warns against using actual strategies, because a scroll of fireball can take out an entire unit with no problem. Giants and dragons are another thing to watch out for, as are any flying thing.

Really, it's a lot like modern warfare, with spells the equivalent of rockets, people would want to take cover, spread out, there are aerial troops, etc. . .

[RS14]

You might also try the rules Frank Trollman posted in Races of War.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

The Minatures Handbook has a system for fighting mass battles. It's based off of the minature's stat cards, which you can covert yourself or download off the wizard's site. The system has advantages and disadvantages. It can represent DnD abilities pretty acurately, but it's also quite restrictive. The rules seem to be designed to be simple and limiting, so that the system stays balanced. It could be greatly improved with a little bit of homebrew work.

[Grey Paladin]

Formations of troops are composed of uniform and identical soilders. Each formation is treated as an separate unit. Each formation will be massed as a square, and move as such. During combat, only the front of each unit will fight (units with longspears could fight with the first 2 rows though). They get Aid another bonuses = number of ranks behind each model. This is basically warhammer fantasy, and a relativly easy way to model it.

(a variant of) This is likely what I will end up doing, despite being rather unrealistic I find it the most elegant and enjoyable method, I'll likely give each of my 4 PCs control of three squads of 28 (7X4) and have them do the commanding on one grid, while fighting off a single unit/elite troops in D&D scale on a different one.

Spellcasters are rare in this setting, and spellcasters above level 1 far more so- while a Fireball may instantly destroy a whole unit it is so rare that special tactics are unlikely to be developed to face such a threat.

[Crow]

You could run big battles the way the Dynasty Warriors games play.

[PnP Fan]

I would recommend AEG's "Empire".
It has a nice system for running an empire/barony/fiefdom, and it has a pretty good system for doing mass combat. Basically a unit of troops gets treated as a single creature, with a simplified set of HP/damage/AC etc.. . It allows for the use of magic (don't remember how, but it's in there). You can also have individual characters/monsters that are strong enough to be units by themselves on the battlefield, allowing for PC's to be heroes on the field. Or to place an army of minions against that ancient red Wyrm.

I'm not sure if it's in print any more, but I'm sure you can find a copy somewhere.