How does Charisma empowers each Cha-based spellcasting class.

[Clistenes]

It has always pissed me how Charisma meant many different things... Willpower, force of personality, personal magnetism, attractive personality, communication skills... stuff that doesn't necessarily have to come together... I mean, you can be a huge coward with a silver tongue, or a fanatic with a lot of willpower and conviction but with the attractive personality and charm of a rabid dog...

It is even weirder when those personality traits empower the magical abilities of the characters... like, you are really charming, so your fireballs burn hotter?

There are lots of people who say "people don't have to like you, if they notice you you have charisma...!" But I don't really buy it... A narrow-minded fanatic firebrand who goes around berating people because they aren't devoted enough and trying to burn perceived heretics, who everybody hates and who barely can communicate normally because he both perceives the world through the deforming lens of his narrow point of view and because he can't stop himself from insulting and threatening everybody every time he opens his mouth... he could be portrayed as both a low Charisma character (because everybody hates him and have overwhelmingly negative reactions to him) and high Charisma (because everybody notices him, knows who he is and fear him...).

So I thought, maybe Charisma means different things for different characters? Charisma would mean different personality traits for different characters, but they work the same, mechanically speaking...

For a Sorcerer, Charisma means Self-confidence. The Sorcerer's power comes from his own blood, its an inherent part of what he is... but he needs to believe in his power... he needs to believe that he can reshape the universe by the strength of his own will... he needs to be a bit of a solipsistic... If he were to doubt himself, to doubt his power, he would fail.

A Sorcerer is good at social interactions because people sense their self-confidence and can't but believe in their abilities. They also good liars, because they are so sure of their ability to influence others (which is just another facet of their confidence in their ability to influence the world around them) that they speak without a hint of doubt of fear, which make people believe they are telling the truth...

For a Warlock, Charisma means Determination. We are speaking about somebody who made a pact with some scary inhuman supernatural entity in order to gain the power to achieve their goals. They won't stop at anything until they reach what they desire, even if it means the ruin of body, mind and soul...

A Warlock's determination helps him in social interactions because he is determined, intense and at least a bit scary. Half the time people give up and do what they ask just so they will stop staring at them and go away...

For a Paladin, Charisma means Conviction. A Sorcerer believes in himself. A Paladin, on the other hand, believes in a cause with unbending, unbreakable faith. He knows he is right, and he knows what must be done.

A Paladin's conviction helps in social interactions because 1.-He is a freaking Paladin, and everybody knows he tells the truth, keeps his word and is honorable and trustworthy, and 2.-When he speaks about his cause, he literally oozes conviction and purpose... you can't avoid being dragged by his faith...

For a Bard, Charisma means Performance Ability, control over his gestures and words. A Bard's magic depends on his ability to sing the right words with the perfect tone, rhythm...etc. He needs perfect control over his expression, over his voice and gestures.

And of course, that helps in every social interaction. The Bard controls perfectly the image he projects to the world.

Of course, it doesn't need to always be exactly like this... a Celestial Warlock could be person of strong Faith, just like the Paladin, and a Star Pact Warlock could have pursued his pact out of narcissistic confidence in his own abilities, just like a Sorcerer... etc.

Since Charisma means different things for different characters, they can't always take advantage of it. The Sorcerer can be a sh*tty singer, despite his high Cha, the Warlock may be shy around women and awful at social gatherings, and the Paladin can't tell a lie to save his life, literally...

Mechanically speaking, the Sorcerer should be a good singer, the Warlock should be good at Diplomacy, and the Paladin should be good at Bluffing... but you can choose to not roleplay them that way...

What do you think about this?

[gkathellar]

It's as reasonable an approach to Charisma as any. Ability scores in general are a conceptual mess and I like them ever less with the passage of time for exactly this reason.

One idea you've missed is that for a spellcaster who has to bargain and petition powerful entities for their spells, Charisma may simply be social skill. The [insert mysterious entity] will lend you more power if it likes you, after all.

[Clistenes]

It's as reasonable an approach to Charisma as any. Ability scores in general are a conceptual mess and I like them ever less with the passage of time for exactly this reason.

One idea you've missed is that for a spellcaster who has to bargain and petition powerful entities for their spells, Charisma may simply be social skill. The [insert mysterious entity] will lend you more power if it likes you, after all.

Yep, like a Shaman who bargains for his spells with his spirit acquaintances every day...

For such a character, Charisma would mean just Social Skills, the ability to negotiate, bargain, cajole and trick power out of the spirits...

[Bacchanalian]

I always felt like charisma was important for a warlock because they get their powers from a patron of some sort. They need to be charismatic enough that the patron grants them power when they are in need of it, and in the case of damage modifiers empowers their spells based on the same.

[Lunali]

I take it as charisma is your sense of self, your self-confidence, etc. Just because you have high charisma, that doesn't mean people will notice you, or that they will like you. It means that if you make the effort to try to get people to like you, you are more likely to succeed.

[Luccan]

I've always seen Charisma casting as willpower, no matter who is using it. Sorcs need it to master their inborn magic, Warlocks to master magic that isn't truly their own, Paladins to hold to their oaths*, and Bards have such commanding presence through their performance that they can will magic into being. I mean, save for Bard, you mentioned Self-Confidence, Determination, and Conviction, all of which could be said to be in some way related to willpower. And if you've ever performed on stage, it can take a lot of one, two, or all of those to really perform.

Now, Charisma doesn't always represent willpower, but then Wisdom isn't consistent in what it represents either. Neither is Dexterity really (You use it to aim, but only some times, and don't use it to see. Also bow are Dex weapons even though you would in reality need a decent Str to use a medieval longbow).

*Oathbreaker is a deliberate break from this case, but in that instance I tend to believe something else is empowering them. They broke their oath, but whatever new power they have still requires a great deal of will to use. As for cowards with magic, one could argue their will to live is great enough they could still wield this magic, even if they would rather run from a fight.

[Spore]

People always forget the word 'charisma' isn't as clear-cut and cleanly defined as other words. Its roots basically mean "getting gifts/benefits", it has religious connotations, it has social implications and it even has economical arguments attached to it (as in: a charismatic person can color a transaction with emotional charges in their favor because you like the situation they create so much you give them a discount, or something extra).

As a somewhat tangent, I work in food services and have worked in retail and I see many MANY people in RPGs play shopkeeps as greedy money hounds that fold to the most minute amount of charisma with insane discounts.

Imagine a sword costs 10 gp base line, a starting area vendor wants 15 gp for a decent one. A successful social roll suddenly reduces this to 8 gp. When in reality a vendor would not discount an "easy sell" like that so much but rather try to tack on something that isn't so easily sold. "What about 12 gp, and you get a scabbard, a whetstone, and I engrave the pommel for you?" Same for tiny miniscule transactions. An innkeep would be hard-pressed to discount a group eating one night in an inn for 3gp. If they however hold a lavish banquet for 50 gp, he can more easily throw in a free breakfast and free rooms.

[Tanarii]

Why are those things different again? They all sound like aspects of a forceful personality.

[Slipperychicken]

Charisma can only be viewed sensibly as a measurement of a character's natural aptitude for effective communication and interaction with other people.

For warlocks, bards, and shamans the connection is obvious: the warlock and shaman communicate with supernatural beings and use their power. Bards exploit various forms of artistic communication for magical power.

Paladins are slightly more complicated. Those who follow gods communicate intense piety to their patron diety, and are granted power for it. But for ones who do not deal with supernatural beings, the connection is much less clear because the source of power is not clearly a person who can be communicated with.

[Millstone85]

In some cases, I think it could be flavored the other way around.

Your ability to influence others does not make you better at spellcasting.

Your magical potency makes you better at influencing others.

For example, the stronger a sorcerer's draconic heritage is, the more they display the personal magnetism of the great wyrms.

[Clistenes]

Why are those things different again? They all sound like aspects of a forceful personality.

Because, mechanically speaking, Charisma implies a lot of personality traits and skills that don't need to come together... And not all of these traits are an aspect of a forceful personality...

That Sorcerer has loads of self-confidence but his singing, dancing and acting skills are roughly on par with those of a potted plant (he may believe himself a great singer, due to his high confidence, but he sounds like a cat in heat...).

That Paladin is able to jump head on into an active volcano to prove his faith, but he can't lie, and won't dare ask a girl for a date...

That Bard sings like angels, and is so charming everybody loves her, but she couldn't intimidate a rabbit...

[Tanarii]

Because, mechanically speaking, Charisma implies a lot of personality traits and skills that don't need to come together... And not all of these traits are an aspect of a forceful personality...

This is true of any skill system based on a limited number of ability scores. Even more so when those ability scores also drive other features or abilities.

[Clistenes]

This is true of any skill system based on a limited number of ability scores. Even more so when those ability scores also drive other features or abilities.

True, the most egregious example besides Charisma being Dexterity... picking a lock, shooting an arrow, rapier fencing and moving silently are very different sets of skills that often do not come together... But I still think Charisma is the worst offender...

[Tanarii]

True, the most egregious example besides Charisma being Dexterity... picking a lock, shooting an arrow, rapier fencing and moving silently are very different sets of skills that often do not come together... But I still think Charisma is the worst offender...

Considering it used to determine reaction roll at the beginning of an encounter, and number of retainers, it's certainly come a long way.

[Kitten Champion]

I have a bigger problem with Wisdom personally. It feels like it's shoehorned in to game because they needed another mechanic to fit Clerics and Rangers. I've never used the term wisdom as an expression of instinctual awareness of your immediate environment outside of D&D, and willpower is already tacitly tied to the concept of Charisma.

I think, on a mechanical and fluff basis, that wisdom is best represented by the body of skills a character has. As in, my character knows what plants are poisonous in the wild, knows how to track animals, knows how to find their way through thick forests, and knows how to set up camp and create a fire that doesn't draw undue attention -- they've got the wisdom of the land. Or they know which streets to take in the city to get to their destination faster and safer, they know the city's politics and how they work practically, they know how to listen for rumours and where the best deals are for the stuff you want to buy -- they're streetwise, in other words. In any case they've got practical knowledge from personal experience that others would value within their context and are all expressed in the game already with accompanying skills more than a Wisdom modifier.

Yet in D&D, Wisdom is more a measure of sentience than accumulated experiences expressed through practical life skills, and a seconds-old robot with heightened senses can be more "wise" than a centuries old elf who's half blind.

I guess I have no issue playing a charismatic character so long as I recognize and communicate which aspect of its personality is being focused upon when I claim them charismatic, but a wise character are more murky in terms of converting numbers into a characterization.

[Clistenes]

I have a bigger problem with Wisdom personally. It feels like it's shoehorned in to game because they needed another mechanic to fit Clerics and Rangers. I've never used the term wisdom as an expression of instinctual awareness of your immediate environment outside of D&D, and willpower is already tacitly tied to the concept of Charisma.

I think, on a mechanical and fluff basis, that wisdom is best represented by the body of skills a character has. As in, my character knows what plants are poisonous in the wild, knows how to track animals, knows how to find their way through thick forests, and knows how to set up camp and create a fire that doesn't draw undue attention -- they've got the wisdom of the land. Or they know which streets to take in the city to get to their destination faster and safer, they know the city's politics and how they work practically, they know how to listen for rumours and where the best deals are for the stuff you want to buy -- they're streetwise, in other words. In any case they've got practical knowledge from personal experience that others would value within their context and are all expressed in the game already with accompanying skills more than a Wisdom modifier.

Yet in D&D, Wisdom is more a measure of sentience than accumulated experiences expressed through practical life skills, and a seconds-old robot with heightened senses can be more "wise" than a centuries old elf who's half blind.

I guess I have no issue playing a charismatic character so long as I recognize and communicate which aspect of its personality is being focused upon when I claim them charismatic, but a wise character are more murky in terms of converting numbers into a characterization.

I see Wisdom as connected to intuition, empathy and ability to understanding others. A Cleric, Druid or Ranger gets power from deities or spirits with alien mindsets... what is more, you don't just bargain with them, you share their ethos and to a extent, identify with them...

The sensory aspect of Wisdom would be related to your ability to intuitively perceive and understand your environment...

And yes, both are very different things and don't need to be related to each other...

[Kitten Champion]

I see Wisdom as connected to intuition, empathy and ability to understanding others. A Cleric, Druid or Ranger gets power from deities or spirits with alien mindsets... what is more, you don't just bargain with them, you share their ethos and to a extent, identify with them...

The sensory aspect of Wisdom would be related to your ability to intuitively perceive and understand your environment...

And yes, both are very different things and don't need to be related to each other...

I find it's hard to express this in the context of a role-playing game though, intuition is more a product of a player than their character and very difficult to parse from intellect + perception like Sherlock Holmes.

Skills are a solid basis to define a character as having wisdom without the need to qualify Wisdom as a thing specifically, as when tasked with something that someone with a lot of know-how in their area of expertise should know or can do, the odds are that they do or are indeed able to. A Ranger should be a Forest Rogue, so to speak, and Clerics should just be like Wizards but of a different body of knowledge and associated behaviours/ideals attached.

Druids should just be Clerics, but of Hippie Gods.

[gkathellar]

I have a bigger problem with Wisdom personally. It feels like it's shoehorned in to game because they needed another mechanic to fit Clerics and Rangers.

That's exactly what it was, back in OD&D - a way to have a stat for Cleric casting that wasn't Intelligence.

[Mokèlé-mbèmbé]

{Scrubbed}

[Max_Killjoy]

Charisma used to be a dump stat for most characters.

Now you've got four Classes that "main stat" Charisma, and it has become a catchall for several barely related things.

E: wait, is this in the general forum?

[Clistenes]

Charisma used to be a dump stat for most characters.

Now you've got four Classes that "main stat" Charisma, and it has become a catchall for several barely related things.

E: wait, is this in the general forum?

Yep. Because the abilities are roughly the same in all D&D editions...

[KyleG]

Im about to start a half elf warlock who was a scholar i built him with the idea that he was only 10+2, but the warlock gave him a new sense of determination/a driving willpower taking him to 12+2, but the more i think of it i wonder whether i can justify making him 14+2 or does he then lose some of what made him, him, for the sake of optimisation?

[Telok]

Yep. Because the abilities are roughly the same in all D&D editions...

Not precisely. The 1e AD&D used charisma as a measure of the ability to interact with and influence others. Wisdom was the willpower & common sense, nothing to do with perception which was independent of stats. Using social ability to cast spells wouldn't have made any sense and having willpower affect how well a character could see and hear was silly.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Not precisely. The 1e AD&D used charisma as a measure of the ability to interact with and influence others. Wisdom was the willpower & common sense, nothing to do with perception which was independent of stats. Using social ability to cast spells wouldn't have made any sense and having willpower affect how well a character could see and hear was silly.

Yeah. The meaning of the stats has varied quite a bit over the years.

As I see it, the 5e (what's being talked about here) mental stats go something like this:

Intelligence: Capacity for abstract thought and memory. Perception of the past (things that have been learned) and future (figuring out new things).
Wisdom: Knowledge of other. Willpower to resist effects by recognizing their external nature. That voice in my head isn't mine, so I shouldn't listen to it. Might be called "sense of other."
Charisma: Knowledge of self. Willpower to resist effects that try to change your self (polymorph, banishment, etc). Confidence. Pre-requisite for social mastery--you can't convince others if you're not convinced yourself.

So of the 4 CHA casters, each one does it slightly differently.
Bards cozen the world into playing tricks, persuading it that it was already like that. Most effective against other sentient beings.
Paladins bludgeon the world into producing magical effects out of sheer determination and self-confidence. They tell it straight up that it's going to bend, because they swore an Oath.
Warlocks manipulate power that they don't fully understand, through confidence in their Patron or through tricks of mind. Their spells aren't learned from a book, they're granted. Unlike a sorcerer, I see a warlock's task being to bring forth power instead of bridling the flow.
Sorcerers are magic. They cast spells by knowing themselves and seeing the patterns encoded in their spiritual DNA and bringing themselves into resonance with those patterns. A sorcerer's struggle is to contain and harness the energy they already contain, rather than force it forth.

But that's all headcanon.

[Kyutaru]

I have my own head canon.

Intelligence is what teenagers possess in great supply. The ability to recognize patterns and follow logic to some conclusion, even if it's not the best idea ever thought up. Understanding complex formulas and abstract concepts that would make the average person's head spin in confusion is what possessing great intellect is all about. Figuring out something you've never dealt with before or puzzling the answer to a great riddle is all about making neurological connections between what you already know and the information you have available for the task you wish to complete. When it comes to discerning the most prudent path, all that is required is stacking the pros and cons of each. Mad scientists may be quite brilliant but also reckless, lacking the sense not to venture where they shouldn't. Still, if it requires solving complex algebra, the wizard can do it.

Wisdom is what older people obtain over time. It's basically experience, an understanding of the world and your place in it and how all things connect and relate. That's a bit embellished from what it commonly manifests as but it amounts to knowing the right and wrong way to do things, whether or not you should do them in the first place, and thinking outside the box when it comes to solutions. It's knowing everything will be alright because you know how things may play out. You are prepared for everything, every eventuality, and understand why it all will happen, perhaps because you learned it from ancient teachings, your diety, the local midwife, or personal observation. College students get trained in this sort of critical thinking and with the divine messages he studies so does your party's cleric.

Charisma on the other hand is like a personal faith or belief in oneself and that natural drive to handle things life throws at you because you're confident that you can. Leaders have it, that motivation to take charge and do what needs to be done. They have conviction, a personal knowing that their way is right that defies logic or reason, that may even defy common sense or experience. Somehow they know that even though the math says its wrong and even though it's failed every other time someone did it, somehow it's worth trying because they know it can work. This is also why you can be persuasive, bluff, intimidating, or extremely attractive -- everyone loves a winner. Confidence, conviction, certainty, charisma is all about convincing others that you are superior. They should do things your way because you said so and you sound so sure of yourself that it's quite convincing. Your attractiveness can relate to your personality being highly appealing or it can relate to your own brain shaping your outward appearance through your own self-image. I highly believe that people have the power to manifest their inner beauty outwardly and that the mind is incredibly powerful in doing so. There's just a certain flair or aura around some people and generally I find ones that are content with their lives look and feel better than those struggling with personal identity or self-esteem.


Spellcasters merely use these tools to further their magics.

Wizards and other Intelligence casters rely on logic and reasoning. Their magic is scientific and must be controlled through a keen understanding of the meticulous rules associated with it. Caution is for the meek and every cast risks failure and only by improving one's aptitude can one become a powerful mage.

Clerics and other Wisdom casters rely on understanding truth. Their magic is gifted to them by the divine or relies on some universal concept or ancient teachings. Through shaping their thought process to better reflect the underlying secrets of their ideology, they are able to better manifest its power.

Sorcerers and other Charisma casters rely on inner strength. Their minds may or may not be palaces full of wise sayings or clever reasoning, it's not required for them. All that matters is cultivating their own personal skill at controlling their emotions, their body, their ingrained power. Sort of like being a mutant in a comic book, they need to figure out for themselves how their own power works. Or maybe someone told them how it works and gifted them the power as is the case with Warlocks and now it's up to them to practice their talent. What works for one might not work for another. Their power is not an exact science, it's not channeled straight from a god, it's a literal manifestation of their own will. And it only works because they believe it does.

I even went so far as the re-categorize some ability scores for my RPG game based on feats and alternate rules and prestige classes that I've seen, such as the ones that sometimes use Intelligence as your reflex save.

Strength - Physical Power
Dexterity - Physical Speed
Constitution - Physical Toughness
Intelligence - Mental Speed
Wisdom - Mental Toughness
Charisma - Mental Power

It's actually led to me combining some things in my game.

Fortitude saves can now be done with either Strength or Constitution. Even someone frail can train their body to become strong and resist many lethal attacks. More muscle mass means more endurance even if you weren't born healthy.

Reflex saves can now be done with either Dexterity or Intelligence. You don't need to be agile, you just need to be quick. Fast thinking can save a life and clever dodging can minimize the amount of strain used to accomplish it.

Will saves can now be done with either Wisdom or Charisma. Lacking the foresight to resist outside influence by disarming the enemy of their tricks does not inhibit one's personal self from being too overpowering to shift by force.

I'm slowly converting many other features for my game to be more inclusive of all ability scores for all characters. I don't want adventurers to think they can safely dump an ability score because it's useless. Every score has a purpose.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, using the most commonly referenced, English definition of Charisma (From Wikipedia):

"Charisma is either compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others, or a divinely conferred power or talent."

Additionally, the term "Charism" explicitly means "an endowment or extraordinary power given by the Holy Spirit."

Charisma means both "Natural Leader" and "Spiritually Gifted", and that is enough to justify most of my narrative uses for it.

Using DnD terms, a Cleric might be a devotee to a God, but a Paladin is chosen by Him. For anyone familiar with the Dresden Files, Father Forthill is a Cleric, but Michael Carpenter and Butters are Paladins.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Using DnD terms, a Cleric might be a devotee to a God, but a Paladin is Chosen by Him.

Except that in 5e, Paladins are unconnected to gods (except in FR), while clerics are chosen by gods.

5e paladins choose their Oath, clerics are chosen by their god.

[Man_Over_Game]

Except that in 5e, Paladins are unconnected to gods (except in FR), while clerics are chosen by gods.

5e paladins choose their Oath, clerics are chosen by their god.

Sure, but that's specific to 5e, an outlier compared to the rest of DnD on this topic. Just because Gods are less powerful does not mean that the term "Spiritual Gift" has any less emphasis.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean, using the most commonly referenced, English definition of Charisma (From Wikipedia):

"Charisma is either compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others, or a divinely conferred power or talent."

Additionally, the term "Charism" explicitly means "an endowment or extraordinary power given by the Holy Spirit."

Charisma means both "Natural Leader" and "Spiritually Gifted", and that is enough to justify most narrative uses for it.

Using DnD terms, a Cleric might be a devotee to a God, but a Paladin is Chosen by Him.

I thought 5e ditched the idea of Paladins as a god's chosen warriors. (Also, what's with the random caps?)

The "divinely conferred power or talent" is probably a more archaic meaning, and having one stat that can be both or either "charm" or "divinely conferred power" is probably counter-productive.

[Man_Over_Game]

I thought 5e ditched the idea of Paladins as a god's chosen warriors. (Also, what's with the random caps?)

The "divinely conferred power or talent" is probably a more archaic meaning, and having one stat that can be both or either "charm" or "divinely conferred power" is probably counter-productive.

But using Dexterity to determine someone's ability to steal, hide, do acrobatics and parkour, shoot a bow, shoot a gun, throw a knife, stab someone in the back, punch people- THAT'S okay?

Wisdom being used for channeling religious magic, finding hidden objects, reading people's expressions, tracking people, surviving in the Wilderness, and healing people using first aid practices- That's fine, too?

Trying to define everything about a character's existence, including magic, with 6 stats, is going to require some compromise. In these examples, you're talking about 6 or so things that don't mesh together. With my example of Charisma, there's 2.

_{The random caps is to signify keywords, but also keeping respect to specific religious titles, like Holy Spirit, God, and Him.}