Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

[Mightymosy]

Being good takes more than caring a little about your family and a lot about your job. Where are his acts of altruism? Where does he "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation"?

I just realised he DID.
He spent years chasing after Xykon.
In my book, that counts as "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation".

[woweedd]

Neither which are actually evil acts in the D&D cosmology.

Though Rich has said that all the monster from the Dungeon of Dorukan got out before the explosion. Emergency Monster Exits probably.

...What? Is this another "goblins don't count" thing?

I just realised he DID.
He spent years chasing after Xykon.
In my book, that counts as "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation".

As I understand it, he gave up on that pretty quickly.

[snowblizz]

...What? Is this another "goblins don't count" thing?

Evil doesn't count thing really.

Or as one SoD paladin said, they are just orcs and therefore evil, there's no alignment penalty to just kill 'em all.

[Fyraltari]

I just realised he DID.
He spent years chasing after Xykon.
In my book, that counts as "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation".

Isn’t revenge compensation?

[Kish]

Though Rich has said that all the monster from the Dungeon of Dorukan got out before the explosion. Emergency Monster Exits probably.

Citation needed.

[woweedd]

Evil doesn't count thing really.

Or as one SoD paladin said, they are just orcs and therefore evil, there's no alignment penalty to just kill 'em all.

Putting aside the blatant racial profiling in that...Why are you assuming all the inhabitants of Dorukan’s Dungeon were Evil? At least...4 of them explicitly weren’t, and it’s stated that most of the goblins were only serving because Xykon strongarmed them.

[Sir_Norbert]

He [Eugene] spent years chasing after Xykon.

So has Belkar, and he's not getting into Celestia any time soon.

[factotum]

So has Belkar, and he's not getting into Celestia any time soon.

...no he hasn't? It's been less than a year since the strip started. Furthermore, Belkar hasn't been chasing Xykon for any altruistic reason, he's just been doing it because he gets to kill stuff and take their loot.

[hamishspence]

If you go by the Timeline on the wiki, the Order of the Stick was formed around April 1183, and the current strips are in very early 1185, so it's been over a year and a half.

[Mightymosy]

...What? Is this another "goblins don't count" thing?

As I understand it, he gave up on that pretty quickly.

Has he not done it for years?

Isn’t revenge compensation?

Arguably, yes.
(But then the Blood Oath OF VENGEANCE shouldn't be a requirement for Celestia, right?)


Then again he did it also to raise Fyron, which seemed to me the primary motivation prior before the Blood Oath.

So has Belkar, and he's not getting into Celestia any time soon.

In other words: the requirement requires significant rewording, yes?

[Kish]

That's still not plural years. I suspect Sir_Norbert is blurring real-world time with OotS-world time.

That said, there is, as woweedd pointed out, no reason to presume Eugene was looking for Xykon any longer; judging by the plaque on the wall of the dungeon where he declared the Blood Oath stupid, he was less than tenth level when he quit.

[Mightymosy]

So how long did Eugene chase after Xykon?
I thought that either in SoD or in the Celestia arc him or Sara said something about "years". Mis-memory?

[Fyraltari]

Arguably, yes.
(But then the Blood Oath OF VENGEANCE shouldn't be a requirement for Celestia, right?

An oath is an oath is an oath. This is the Lawful Good afterlife, remember?

[Kish]

Indeed. "Making that oath was a mistake, I'll disregard it," if sincere and not a cover for "I just don't want to do what I don't want to do," is a fine attitude for the Chaotic Good afterlife.

We* really, really don't want Eugene there.

*"We" here means "Chaotic Good people," not "forum posters." He's your headache to deal with, Lawfuls, no pushing him off on us.

[Fyraltari]

That being said, if Eugene had found Xykon and it had turned out that Xykon had turned his life around and was sincerely remorseful of killing Fyron, I don’t think Celestia would have had an issue with Eugene not killing him as they are the lawful good afterlife. But that situation is so removed from the characters’ personalities they might as well be Emile Bluepommel and Zaïgon.

Edit: Kish, how would you feel about him being pushed to one of the Neutral places?

[Majin]

I think in one strip Roy commented something about Eugene going to hell, and a deva said that it wasn't a possibility anymore. Either it means she thought Eugene couldn't commit enough evil acts while being stuck on a cloud, or that he was already judged, and the acts he commits while dead don't change his alignment anymore. We have mostly seen him at his worst, after being stuck on a cloud for years with very little to do, with the prize being dangled right in front of him. He was always a jerk though, but maybe he still did more good than bad. His wife didn't seem to question him getting into the LG afterlife, and she knows more about him than Roy.

I do wonder if chaotic afterlife would let him in. I suppose it depends on how the oath works. I imagine the celestials judging him would be more lax at the very least, but might not be allowed to just disregard it completely.

[Quebbster]

Went back and reread the afterlife scenes and I found something interesting in strip 486: Eugene says that the cloud is where Good people come to be judged Before their final rest, and that the mountain is the Lawful Good afterlife. In other Words, you just need to be Good to end up on the cloud, not necessarily Lawful Good.

[Kish]

Edit: Kish, how would you feel about him being pushed to one of the Neutral places?

I would hope that suggesting that I'm concerned about having to share a D&D afterlife with the fictional character Eugene Greenhilt could not be mistaken for the most serious post ever made on this forum.

That said, if you're asking my serious evaluation of Eugene's alignment, which might very well differ from Rich's...
I don't think the character that has been presented is Good by any reasonable metric. His arguments for omnicide and for dwarf genocide to make the omnicide easier would classify him as Evil in my book unless Rich indicates he was just doing it to troll Roy and wouldn't have said those things to someone who might be convinced--which I would find odd in light of his apparent incomprehension of Roy's objections. Probably Neutral Evil; unlike Tarquin he seems to relinquish any claim that he's following the rules fairly readily, and outright lied to the deva to claim he'd completed the Blood Oath instead of coming up with some "everything I said was technically true" rationalization, but he also doesn't show the complete disregard for rules of Elan, Haley, Hilgya and Xykon.

[Ruck]

I just realised he DID.
He spent years chasing after Xykon.
In my book, that counts as "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation".

Isn’t revenge compensation?

Yes.

Also, he gave up.

Belkar hasn't been chasing Xykon for any altruistic reason

Neither was Eugene.

I think in one strip Roy commented something about Eugene going to hell, and a deva said that it wasn't a possibility anymore.

Roy's Archon said "I think we are past the point where that would be a realistic possibility." Not the same, either in terms of certainty or, IMO, authority.

I think the main issue here is that people are judging Eugene's entire character based on interactions with Roy

I'm judging it based on everything we've seen him do in the comic. I guess I need to repeat myself:

Where are his acts of altruism? Where does he "battle the forces of evil without expecting compensation"?

Where is even one example?

[hamishspence]

He had a chance to "battle the forces of Evil without compensation" in the encounter with Xyklon the Consequential.

A more altruistic person might have said "He may not be my villain, but he's still a villain" and started fighting Xyklon. Eugene instead turned round and walked away.

[Kish]

Yes.

Also, he gave up.

Also, he made it very clear that, in his eyes, his personal grudge against Xykon was everything and Xykon being a threat to the world was nothing; Roy yelled at him for it at the end of No Cure for the Paladin Blues, remember?

And to amplify what Ruck is saying: It would be amazingly easy for Rich to depict Eugene showing altruism. A panel of him helping starving orphans could replace one of the panels where he argues to let the world be destroyed for his personal convenience, to no net change in Rich's writing or drawing effort. Rich has not drawn such a panel. Ever. To get one, you need to assign hidden altruism to a panel where he's acting self-interested.

If you maintain that Rich is not trying to send a "Eugene is in fact a horrible person" message, why has he never shown Eugene being better than a horrible person?

[Fyraltari]

He had a chance to "battle the forces of Evil without compensation" in the encounter with Xyklon the Consequential.

A more altruistic person might have said "He may not be my villain, but he's still a villain" and started fighting Xyklon. Eugene instead turned round and walked away.

I thought we agreed that attacking some simply for being evil without knowing of a particular crime was evil.

EDIT: Though maybe I don’t remember correctly, did Xyklon mention he was doing something evil or was he just pissed at the 4-6 murderhobos breaking inside his home?

[Mightymosy]

An oath is an oath is an oath. This is the Lawful Good afterlife, remember?

The question was not whether I see him fit for Celestia.

I was responding to someone posting the requirement mentioned above. Which I think he fits.

Doesn't mean that I agree with the requirement

[Kish]

Given how eager Xyklon apparently was to fight, Eugene could have asked him, "Tell me about your evil scheme."

And if he seriously thought the hordling at the end of the dungeon might be innocent, then just walking away was inadequate; he should have at the very least apologized for the guards he murdered to get there.

[Fyraltari]

The question was not whether I see him fit for Celestia.

I was responding to someone posting the requirement mentioned above. Which I think he fits.

Doesn't mean that I agree with the requirement

I don’t understand what you are saying.

Edit: you said that if revenge is a compensation then the blood oath shouldn’t be a requirement to enter Celestia.

[hamishspence]

I thought we agreed that attacking some simply for being evil without knowing of a particular crime was evil.

I got the impression that the rest of his party had confused Xyklon with Xykon when Eugene told his story to them on joining the party, and so, when reports of a Xyklon villain came him, they assumed this was the guy Eugene was after, and took Eugene to him.

[Mightymosy]

I don’t understand what you are saying.

Edit: you said that if revenge is a compensation then the blood oath shouldn’t be a requirement to enter Celestia.

I see.

People said Eugene was not LG at all, having done NONE of what is expected lf LG characters, basically.
As requirement for LG it was stated "fighting evil without expecting compensation".

I said that "NONE" is not correct, since he DID hunt down a super evil guy for years, thus fullfilling one requirement for LG, as stated (not MY requirement, mind you).

You then said that revenge is compensation.

Which I can agree with.

BUT THEN, if following an oath for vengeance does NOT fit "fighting evil without compensation", then it seems weird that following an oath for vengeance would be a criterion to enter LG paradise, is my opinion.

To summarise: I don't think the "fighting evil without compensation" is a good requirement to count as LG, and following a blood oath OF VENGEANCE is NOT a good criterion for Heaven, either.
And, these two criteria together don't make sense logically, if one follows your assessment that revenge is some (usually at least a little evil i might add) form of compensation (which I agree with).

[Fyraltari]

I see.

People said Eugene was not LG at all, having done NONE of what is expected lf LG characters, basically.
As requirement for LG it was stated "fighting evil without expecting compensation".

I said that "NONE" is not correct, since he DID hunt down a super evil guy for years, thus fullfilling one requirement for LG, as stated (not MY requirement, mind you).

You then said that revenge is compensation.

Which I can agree with.

BUT THEN, if following an oath for vengeance does NOT fit "fighting evil without compensation", then it seems weird that following an oath for vengeance would be a criterion to enter LG paradise, is my opinion.

To summarise: I don't think the "fighting evil without compensation" is a good requirement to count as LG, and following a blood oath OF VENGEANCE is NOT a good criterion for Heaven, either.
And, these two criteria together don't make sense logically, if one follows your assessment that revenge is some (usually at least a little evil i might add) form of compensation (which I agree with).

There is no contradiction between:
A) trying to kill an evil-doer to get revenge does not get you good points
And
B) breaking an oath, in this case of vengeance, gives you bad points.

Edit: selflessness in the fight against evil helps on the G-E scale while upholding oaths helps on the L-C side. To get in Celestia, Eugene would have to to have more good points than evil points and more lawful points than chaotic points, so to speak.

[Peelee]

I see.

People said Eugene was not LG at all, having done NONE of what is expected lf LG characters, basically.
As requirement for LG it was stated "fighting evil without expecting compensation".

I said that "NONE" is not correct, since he DID hunt down a super evil guy for years, thus fullfilling one requirement for LG, as stated (not MY requirement, mind you).

You then said that revenge is compensation.

Which I can agree with.

BUT THEN, if following an oath for vengeance does NOT fit "fighting evil without compensation", then it seems weird that following an oath for vengeance would be a criterion to enter LG paradise, is my opinion.

To summarise: I don't think the "fighting evil without compensation" is a good requirement to count as LG, and following a blood oath OF VENGEANCE is NOT a good criterion for Heaven, either.
And, these two criteria together don't make sense logically, if one follows your assessment that revenge is some (usually at least a little evil i might add) form of compensation (which I agree with).

L and G are two separate things, not a single thing. Folloeing the Blood Oath is not LG. It is L. As such, breaking it or not abiding by it is a pretty big mark against LG, because the G isn't factored into that part.

[Fyraltari]

Given how eager Xyklon apparently was to fight, Eugene could have asked him, "Tell me about your evil scheme."

And if he seriously thought the hordling at the end of the dungeon might be innocent, then just walking away was inadequate; he should have at the very least apologized for the guards he murdered to get there.

I got the impression that the rest of his party had confused Xyklon with Xykon when Eugene told his story to them on joining the party, and so, when reports of a Xyklon villain came him, they assumed this was the guy Eugene was after, and took Eugene to him.

Re-reading thats scene, there is nothing to shows that Xyklon is evil (other than living in a dungeon, sitting on a throne and being some kind of overweight dragon-creature) or that Eugene & co killed anyone to reach them.
It's clear that Keeno the Rogue mistook Xyklon with Xykon but all that's said abiut how Keeno learned of Xyklon is that Keeno has a much better Gather information skill than Eugene.


Incidently, Roy calls Myrtok his uncle so it seems the two have a good relationship despite Myrtok being a friend of Eugene's. Contrast Nale's use of quotes when talking to Laurin.