Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

[Mightymosy]

I am talking about the scene in SoD when Eugene misses Roy's soccer game and shows utter disregard for the game anyway.

I've noticed this to be a trope in American movies: the dad misses (baseball, football) games and that's portrayed as bad.

I think the scene may be supposed to show how bad of a father Eugene is, but honestly that wasn't my impression when reading it.

When I was a kid, I didn't give a bullhonkey whether my parents watched me playing sports. If anything, I would be happy doing something *on my own*.
Thinking about it, I found it rather embarassing than motivating when my mom cheeree from the sidelines (as if you needed your mother to succeed, you know? can't have THAT as a boy).

I didn't expect my parents to learn the basics of Starcraft or MtG either - because it were MY hobbies, not theirs. My father had a job that was important and VERY timeconsuming - and NEVER did it even occur to me to feel "left alone" or something. Basically I always knew he cared for me even if he never went to my sports games or other stuff.

What do you people think?
Am I such a different child? Is it really so important for other children to have their parents watch their games? It it an American thing? Or just a Hollywood thing Rich copied?

[Quebbster]

My son definitely prefers to have me present at his games, though it's not a big deal if I miss out either. People are different, including Children.
Think the Point of this scene is to show that Roy feels like he isn't important to Eugene (which is in contrast to the scene immediately Before, where Eugene decides to not go after Xykon because he doesn't want to make Roy fatherless). Eugene doesn't even know what sport is being played, it's literally "just this thing my kid does".
You felt like your father cared for you in his own way. Roy obviously didn't feel the same way about Eugene, and he wasn't exactly wrong.

[Morquard]

Usually when it's portrait like that it's not just some "random game" or even practice. It's a huge thing (for the kids anyway) like a season finale or another important game, and they want everyone to be there. And the told everyone to be there. And they told the kids "Sure, don't worry, I promise I'll be there!"

And then they aren't. After they promised.

[Darth Tom]

At 16, I was trying for Olympic selection in archery. Never quite made it to the top level, but had 18 years of competing at top national and some international pro-am events. As a teenager, my parents always tried to attend my competitions, and ended up taking up the sport themselves. In such an individual, technical sport, it's really nice to have people there with whom you can talk through how it's going.

"I'm feeling a bit this, that." "Is it like what you had at X,Y?" "Not really, it's more this." "It's tough conditions today, looks like everyone's struggling all down the line." Those sort of things really help.

Also, it's nice to have people there who care about your results for your sake, not for their implications for selections and rankings. I'm a bit on the spectrum, struggled to make friends my own age, and had never been sporty, so it was always a great hero moment to excel at something in front of my parents and know that they cared. It also taught me how to make friends with proper adults, and made me realise that I was an unwitting hero to a bunch of other kids, but that's another story.

Certainly, when I moved away from home my enjoyment of competitions dropped because I no longer had that emotional support and engagement. For years after, I went with my other half, who also shoots, but she is (fair enough) less supportive than parents. When she got a shoulder injury and could no longer compete, I felt no desire to continue.

This is of course in no way what Rich could have been going for, but in terms of the effects parental support can have, I think it's worth telling because for me it was very significant indeed. I hope it has been interesting.

[Wizard_Lizard]

My parents have never shown up to my chess matches...
Although that is understandable.
Personally I don't care if they show up or not to my other sports. (Canoe Polo.)

[factotum]

I'm sure Roy didn't expect his father to show up for the game, but that's mainly because he was already totally disillusioned with Eugene. If he'd had a better relationship with his father then him not showing up might well have been a big deal. (Note that Roy's mother seems far more irritated at Eugene in that scene than Roy himself is).

[Kish]

This strikes me as a bizarre question. What does Roy's relationship with Eugene have to do with either Hollywood or any real-world person's relationship with their parents? Eugene's disregard for Roy is plain whenever he's on-panel.

[Fyraltari]

This strikes me as a bizarre question. What does Roy's relationship with Eugene have to do with either Hollywood or any real-world person's relationship with their parents? Eugene's disregard for Roy is plain whenever he's on-panel.

The question, as I understand it, is wether the use of Eugene not showing up at Roy’s matches to demonstrate his lack of care has basis elsewhere than in Hollywodian clichés.

[Aveline]

I played soccer as a child. My mom came to my games, and I was happy that she did. It made me feel like she was proud of me, and it made me feel good about playing. My dad never came to my games, and I did in fact wonder at that time if he didn't care at all about what I was doing. That made me feel bad about soccer and bad about myself.

[Mightymosy]

The question, as I understand it, is wether the use of Eugene not showing up at Roy’s matches to demonstrate his lack of care has basis elsewhere than in Hollywodian clichés.

This, basically.
I don't understand what's so bizzare about the question.
For me personally it has always been weird in Hollywood movies when it's supposed to be a big fuss, and likewise in SoD.

It is indeed interesting for me to read people's personal experience and feelings about this, thanks for sharing!

Colored by my own experience, I read the scene quite differently, emotionally speaking.
When Eugene didn't know the soccer rules, my initial gut reaction was "Of course he wouldn't. He has WAAAY more important stuff to think about, like wizard spells" (incidentally, I also never got why Harry Potter people were so enthusiastic about Quidditch - well, at least that one had magic).
When I was young, I knew dad had way more important stuff in mind than caring to, for example, learn the colors of MtG, or say, the supply limit for a Protoss fleet. Or earlier than that, how I built my Legos of whatever. Personally, it was always the stuff that *I* cared about - why should he care about it?? He was busy earning the money so that I could even *have* that stuff in the first place...

Now, of course it is hard to pull that scene out and isolate it from the other dismissive stuff Eugene does to Roy (forcing him to become a wizard would be the biggest offender I think).
But the "I am sad my dad doesn't watch my game" stuff has tickled me then and in Hollywood movies, so I asked whether that was a real thing. Especially since I don't remember seeing it in German movies.
Incidentally, I remember stuff like "soccer moms" not being much of a thing in my childhood, but have heard it to be more prominent these days. Maybe there is a cultural difference, maybe one we slowly adopt? Just speculation here, not first hand experience and only very vague information at any rate.

[Peelee]

The question, as I understand it, is wether the use of Eugene not showing up at Roy’s matches to demonstrate his lack of care has basis elsewhere than in Hollywodian clichés.

This, basically.

Yes. For ecample:

I played soccer as a child. My mom came to my games, and I was happy that she did. It made me feel like she was proud of me, and it made me feel good about playing. My dad never came to my games, and I did in fact wonder at that time if he didn't care at all about what I was doing. That made me feel bad about soccer and bad about myself.

There's a very good likelihood that it might be a cliche because a good amount of people emphasize with that.

[Cizak]

When Eugene didn't know the soccer rules, my initial gut reaction was "Of course he wouldn't. He has WAAAY more important stuff to think about, like wizard spells" (incidentally, I also never got why Harry Potter people were so enthusiastic about Quidditch - well, at least that one had magic).
When I was young, I knew dad had way more important stuff in mind than caring to, for example, learn the colors of MtG, or say, the supply limit for a Protoss fleet. Or earlier than that, how I built my Legos of whatever. Personally, it was always the stuff that *I* cared about - why should he care about it?? He was busy earning the money so that I could even *have* that stuff in the first place...

Of course adults have more important things to think about than their kids' interests.* Which is why it means so incredibly much to many children when the adults in their lives actually do make an effort to learn about such things. Caring about what your loved ones are doing and how they're feeling about it is generally a good way to retain a healthy relationship.

And as Sarah said, Eugene is smart. Learning soccer rules would probably take him an afternoon at the very most. But he doesn't do that, because it's not important. Which means, at least to Roy, that a big part of his life is not important to Eugene.

*Arguably, depending on what you're classifying as important in your life.

[Kish]

When I was young, I knew dad had way more important stuff in mind than caring to, for example, learn the colors of MtG, or say, the supply limit for a Protoss fleet. Or earlier than that, how I built my Legos of whatever. Personally, it was always the stuff that *I* cared about - why should he care about it?? He was busy earning the money so that I could even *have* that stuff in the first place...

While this does much to explain why the negative presentation of Eugene is largely lost on you, I think in general a "my father doesn't care at all about any of my interests and that's just fine because he earns money" attitude is a whole lot further from the default than you apparently think it is.

[Fyraltari]

It should be noted that school sport competitions are given much more importance in the U.S., where they are, unless I am misinformed, seen as minor newsworthy sport events than in Europe where they are seen as child’s play.

Edit : Though I know that I would have been hurt if my parents hadn’t made time to watch my school plays.

[Peelee]

It should be noted that school sport competitions are given much more importance in the U.S., where they are, unless I am misinformed, seen as minor newsworthy sport events than in Europe where they are seen as child’s play.

Depends on where you are in the US.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Depends on where you are in the US.

Doesn't the entire country participate in some kind of ritualistic observation of a bunch of college students play hand-and-football? Never mind the insane lengths the country will go to avoid dealing with the damage done to the professional players, but actual, exploited, unpaid college students?

(and I'm hesitating about posting this, because I get the feeling "US sports are really political" is likely a thing, and thus might be a topic verboten in the forums)

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Doesn't the entire country participate in some kind of ritualistic observation of a bunch of college students play hand-and-football? Never mind the insane lengths the country will go to avoid dealing with the damage done to the professional players, but actual, exploited, unpaid college students?

(and I'm hesitating about posting this, because I get the feeling "US sports are really political" is likely a thing, and thus might be a topic verboten in the forums)

Grey Wolf

High school isn't college, though.

[Keltest]

Doesn't the entire country participate in some kind of ritualistic observation of a bunch of college students play hand-and-football? Never mind the insane lengths the country will go to avoid dealing with the damage done to the professional players, but actual, exploited, unpaid college students?

(and I'm hesitating about posting this, because I get the feeling "US sports are really political" is likely a thing, and thus might be a topic verboten in the forums)

Grey Wolf

Yes. I live in a college town (State College, for the curious) and whenever there are home games for the college football team, the number of people in town doubles overnight.

Also, while there are some political overlaps, as far as im aware there isn't much controversy about the actual legality of anything as pertaining to national or state laws, just within its own organizational structure.

[Peelee]

Yes. I live in a college town (State College, for the curious) and whenever there are home games for the college football team, the number of people in town doubles overnight.

Also, while there are some political overlaps, as far as im aware there isn't much controversy about the actual legality of anything as pertaining to national or state laws, just within its own organizational structure.

I used to date a girl who lived in Tuscaloosa. I very specifically avoided ever going there on the weekends during football season.

[Keltest]

I used to date a girl who lived in Tuscaloosa. I very specifically avoided ever going there on the weekends during football season.

Smart man. You can tell football season has started here when you cant go grocery shopping on weekends anymore.

[jwhouk]

TV Tropes to the rescue!

[Mightymosy]

Yes. For ecample:

There's a very good likelihood that it might be a cliche because a good amount of people emphasize with that.

Yeah, Aveline's post I noticed.
Hence my "thanks for sharing".
It was exactly what I had asked for with this thread's question, and was, as I said, interesting to read.

It being a trope or cliche doesn't make it any more true, though. There are lots of stupid cliches.

While this does much to explain why the negative presentation of Eugene is largely lost on you, I think in general a "my father doesn't care at all about any of my interests and that's just fine because he earns money" attitude is a whole lot further from the default than you apparently think it is.

I don't know if I would agree with your usage of default in this context. There are so many opinions on how to raise children that I don't know if I would consider something a default here. That's why I asked, also.

Anyway, for me it has always been clear that
1. interest in me as person (which my parents REALLY REALLY SHOWED to great extent!!)
and
2. interest in my hobbies (a little here and there)
are very different things.

In short, I have always known my parents to love me and care for me, because they cared for my emotional wellbeing, but I would have never tied that into them being interested in my interests.

It is, really, interesting to read that appearantly that is a thing, though.
Good to remember when raising children, as well.

TV Tropes to the rescue!

Interesting. This one would fit more to the impression I got when reading the strip in SoD:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...uComingHomeDad

Basically, I thought Rich wanted to paint Eugene in a *slightly* more sympathetic way, just like he did with Redcloak.
In the sense that he is dismissive to Roy, yes, but not because he is evil or anything, but he doesn't know better or can't do better.

But the more important part for me anyway is to understand that people really felt that way as children, like Roy.

Consider that settled, you may now close the thread as solved.

[woweedd]

I'll admit to getting some of MM's perspective, which I think is the first time i've even understood where he was coming from: I've managed to get through my teenage years with a relative lack of strife with my respective parental units. That said, keep in mind: The usual example of a trope is a workaholic parent who really DOES love their kid, but is too busy to spend time with them. This is, admittedly, not the best for parenting, but understandable. V would fall in this: They aren't the most attentive parent, but it's clear they do have a protective instinct for their kids that I sincerely hope is unknown to any other: I mean, the last time someone threatened them, it lead to that person's entire family tree getting wiped out. Eugene is in another category: The outright neglectful. As the incident with Eric should prove, eugene was NEVER anything resembling a good father, and it's clearly not that that wants to support Roy, but can't: It's all but stated he's done this before, and doesn't much care, because he, ultimately, doe snot care about his son. Heck, he doesn't care to TRY and show interest, even though, as Sara points out, with his intelligence, he could easily learn the rules to nay physical sport given a few hours, and only doesn't do so because he considers physical matters beneath him. He's a ****.

[Peelee]

It being a trope or cliche doesn't make it any more true, though. There are lots of stupid cliches.

Indeed. Do you think I should edit that post and put in specific language to show that I am not certain about this?

Basically, I thought Rich wanted to paint Eugene in a slightly more sympathetic way, just like he did with Redcloak In the sense that he is dismissive to Roy, yes, but not because he is evil or anything, but he doesn't know better or can't do better.

Eugene does know better. He's a fully functional adult. Why do you think he doesnt know better, or can't do better?

[Fyraltari]

Basically, I thought Rich wanted to paint Eugene in a *slightly* more sympathetic way, just like he did with Redcloak.
In the sense that he is dismissive to Roy, yes, but not because he is evil or anything, but he doesn't know better or can't do better.

Pretty sure that scene was there to show that Eugene was being insincere with Right-Eye as to why he wasn't interested in his offer, even though, like a broken clock showing the right time he gives him good advice.

Consider that settled, you may now close the thread as solved.

We don't close thread around here, we wait for them to turn into Miko or Star Wars threads.

[Kish]

Pretty sure that scene was there to show that Eugene was being insincere with Right-Eye as to why he wasn't interested in his offer, even though, like a broken clock showing the right time he gives him good advice.

Did he really? Yes, he phrased it in a way designed to sound wise, but look at the actual results; his advice was disastrous for the person he gave it to and for himself. Both would have been better served to stay focused on destroying Xykon until Xykon was destroyed, because whatever Eugene said, it wasn't about petty revenge for Redcloak's brother, and while it might have been for Eugene himself, it was a "petty revenge" he'd committed himself to with a magically binding blood oath.

[Peelee]

Now I'm just wondering how the battle of Dorukan's dungeon might have gone had Eugene been there.

[Mightymosy]

I'll admit to getting some of MM's perspective, which I think is the first time i've even understood where he was coming from: I've managed to get through my teenage years with a relative lack of strife with my respective parental units. That said, keep in mind: The usual example of a trope is a workaholic parent who really DOES love their kid, but is too busy to spend time with them. This is, admittedly, not the best for parenting, but understandable. V would fall in this: They aren't the most attentive parent, but it's clear they do have a protective instinct for their kids that I sincerely hope is unknown to any other: I mean, the last time someone threatened them, it lead to that person's entire family tree getting wiped out. Eugene is in another category: The outright neglectful. As the incident with Eric should prove, eugene was NEVER anything resembling a good father, and it's clearly not that that wants to support Roy, but can't: It's all but stated he's done this before, and doesn't much care, because he, ultimately, doe snot care about his son. Heck, he doesn't care to TRY and show interest, even though, as Sara points out, with his intelligence, he could easily learn the rules to nay physical sport given a few hours, and only doesn't do so because he considers physical matters beneath him. He's a ****.

Has the incident with Eric ever been shown?
Is it a bonus strip in one of the books?

Because I always found it strange we never got to see it.
SoD would have been a perfect place to show that, and show how awful Eugene was then.
But we didn't get that.

That's why I always have been and will reserve judgment until we see the case.

Indeed. Do you think I should edit that post and put in specific language to show that I am not certain about this?

Eugene does know better. He's a fully functional adult. Why do you think he doesnt know better, or can't do better?

Up to you what you do with your posts.
My point is just that common real stuff may become movie cliches, but not every movie cliche is real.

The scene in SoD has him consider Right-Eye's offer and deny it on the basis of his family.
He then proceeds to try to watch Roy's game and fails.
To me, these scenes alone don't really make Eugene look bad, honestly.

Consider what later happens to Lirian: Xykon tortures people's loved ones if he thinks it furthers his goals.

In the bar scene, Eugene is confronted by his past: a past he doesn't want to mess with his family - which would be a good reason if it WAS the reason.

Later comics (current book, for example), paint him in a more selfish, negative light, however.
I don't know if this supposed to be negative character development, or if this is indeed just a misreading of the SOD part on my part, honestly.
Again, the scene that maybe was supposed to portray Eugene as a selfish liar (the sports scene) just didn't do that to me, personally.
For me, Eugene HAD important stuff to do: his past came back to haunt him, and he made the decision to fend it off from his family. And in true Hollywood manier, he promptly then lied to his family "to protect them from his troubled past" ("plane of water").

Pretty sure that scene was there to show that Eugene was being insincere with Right-Eye as to why he wasn't interested in his offer, even though, like a broken clock showing the right time he gives him good advice.

We don't close thread around here, we wait for them to turn into Miko or Star Wars threads.

See, to me that wasn't as clear. Especially since the book later shows what Xykon does to loved ones of people he fights. And it's the reason Eugene gives, when pressed by RE.

That doesn't make Eugene a saint at any rate, but my impression was that the scene(s) were meant to paint Eugene in more shades of grey, if you get what I mean.
Like Sara said: Eugene did, at times, focus his energy on being a good father.
And to Eugene, this might have been being the perfect wizard example, and enable such life for Roy.
After all, that's the example his father gave to HIM, showing absolute disinterest in his books.
Basically, the whole Greenhilt family story doesn't quite seem black/white to me.

[Peelee]

Up to you what you do with your posts.

My point is just that common real stuff may become movie cliches, but not every movie cliche is real.

And not every common real stuff will be applicable to you.

[Fyraltari]

Has the incident with Eric ever been shown?
Is it a bonus strip in one of the books?

Because I always found it strange we never got to see it.
SoD would have been a perfect place to show that, and show how awful Eugene was then.
But we didn't get that.

That's why I always have been and will reserve judgment until we see the case.

I will pass on the scene where a father refuse to listen to his small child resulting in an explosion that kills a two/three years old and severs him into bits and the fallout thereof, thankyouverymuch.

The scene in SoD has him consider Right-Eye's offer and deny it on the basis of his family.
He then proceeds to try to watch Roy's game and fails.
To me, these scenes alone don't really make Eugene look bad, honestly.

He didn't try to watch the game, he went to see Right-Eye instead and once that was done he said he was already "late for an equally pointless appointment". Even if he doesn't care about football, he knew this was important to his son and didn't care. That's bad parenting.

Consider what later happens to Lirian: Xykon tortures people's loved ones if he thinks it furthers his goals.

Yeah and Xykon does not have revenge as a goal. In fact he never pursues any of his opponents loved ones to punish them. If he did do that he would have killed Eugen after killing his master.

In the bar scene, Eugene is confronted by his past: a past he doesn't want to mess with his family - which would be a good reason if it WAS the reason.

But it isn't the reason he stopped going after Xykon, he wass bored with it before he had a family.

Later comics (current book, for example), paint him in a more selfish, negative light, however.
I don't know if this supposed to be negative character development, or if this is indeed just a misreading of the SOD part on my part, honestly.
Again, the scene that maybe was supposed to portray Eugene as a selfish liar (the sports scene) just didn't do that to me, personally.

With the exception of his very first appearance Eugene has always been portrayed as an emotionnally abusive father and a terrible husband and son. The revelation that he killed Eric in a lab accident and that did not make him reconsider his work/family priority is not recent. Nor is his agreeing to have his son kidnapped by a secret paramilitary force to endure a close-door trial and be forced into service by a comploting politician or his heartfelt agreeing to never again see his family.

For me, Eugene HAD important stuff to do: his past came back to haunt him, and he made the decision to fend it off from his family. And in true Hollywood manier, he promptly then lied to his family "to protect them from his troubled past" ("plane of water").

Protect them from what? Sara had always known he was an adventurer.

See, to me that wasn't as clear. Especially since the book later shows what Xykon does to loved ones of people he fights.

Nothing. He doesn't have the attention span for it.

And it's the reason Eugene gives, when pressed by RE.

That doesn't make Eugene a saint at any rate, but my impression was that the scene(s) were meant to paint Eugene in more shades of grey, if you get what I mean.
Like Sara said: Eugene did, at times, focus his energy on being a good father.

She didn't say that, she said that he focused on being a good husband for a while, then grew bored of that too but was stuck with her because of the children.

And to Eugene, this might have been being the perfect wizard example, and enable such life for Roy.
After all, that's the example his father gave to HIM, showing absolute disinterest in his books.

That's a poor excuse.

Basically, the whole Greenhilt family story doesn't quite seem black/white to me.

Ain't gonna side with the guy who gets angry his son is allowed into Heaven, myself.

EDIT

Did he really? Yes, he phrased it in a way designed to sound wise, but look at the actual results; his advice was disastrous for the person he gave it to and for himself.
Both would have been better served to stay focused on destroying Xykon until Xykon was destroyed, because whatever Eugene said, it wasn't about petty revenge for Redcloak's brother, and while it might have been for Eugene himself, it was a "petty revenge" he'd committed himself to with a magically binding blood oath.

It is true in a more general sense. However I disagree, following Eugene's advice allowed Right-Eye to live the best years of his life until Redcloak came back. Keeping to try to kill Xykon would only have resulted in an earlier grave. As for Eugene the reason that isn't applicable is because of literal magic, which doesn't undercut the value of the real point. As "You should pursue revenge forever because if you don't, the promise you made while drunk years ago will keep you stuck in Limbo regardless of the rest of your life" isn't very useful as far as advices go in real life.