The new general "Dominions 5" Thread

[deuterio12]

Might be an idea to first look over the remaining Pokemon Towns for Ranged attack adjustment.
Im in particular looking at Fuchiva, Cinnabar and Safron.

Well you were keeping silent on those so I already been doing some work about that, ember and poison gas changed to melee in the 1.100 release.

There should still be some days to update before the next game starts, but I would rather not delay it over a week.

And of those, mostly Fuchiva. Im worried about how ranged AN damage would work against any normal nation.
Or for that matter nations with low HP troops and no PR.
So im in particular looking at Poison Sting and Poison Gas there.
But likely just making them AP would work. Dont know if there are a poison sludge/slime attack.
But thats something it would make sense had more trouble penetrating armor.

Poison Sting was updated to melee at the same time as Cerulean since all pokémon draw from the same pool of weapons, poison gas is currently melee and allows defense to dodge.

I also think Disease spreader should be removed from Grimer.
Since its annoying for Fuchiva (lost a few commanders that way).
And annoying for their enemies, when every victory becomes phyrric.
Also not even certain its thematic? Dont recall seeing any trainers get sick on the show?

Ash gets bedridden in "The Stun Spore Detour". And although otherwise the gang's indeed pretty healthy, there are still hospitals for humans here and there, so humans still getting sick in the background.

And the pokedex itself calls the grimmers as disease vectors oozing nasty bacteria all over the place that wipe out every plant life where they pass over, leaving only barren wasteland on their wake.

Plus since grimmers now lost all ranged ability and are rather slow, it should be perfectly possible to take them out from afar (and also make it less likely your own commanders hang nearby).

[lord_khaine]

Poison Sting was updated to melee at the same time as Cerulean since all pokémon draw from the same pool of weapons, poison gas is currently melee and allows defense to dodge.

Poison Gas being melee likely makes it a little more survivable. But im still a touch worried about just how effective it will be.
As i recall Grimir is size 1? that makes for 5 defence checks against 5 AN damage. That will still shred most human troops.

Ash gets bedridden in "The Stun Spore Detour". And although otherwise the gang's indeed pretty healthy, there are still hospitals for humans here and there, so humans still getting sick in the background.

And the pokedex itself calls the grimmers as disease vectors oozing nasty bacteria all over the place that wipe out every plant life where they pass over, leaving only barren wasteland on their wake.

Plus since grimmers now lost all ranged ability and are rather slow, it should be perfectly possible to take them out from afar (and also make it less likely your own commanders hang nearby).

Alright fair so thats where the idea comes from.
All the same i suspect Dom 5 disease is a lot more nasty in general.

And i cant really see how you want to take them out from afar?
Yes they move at a snails pace. But regular archers wont do.
And its going to be really hard mustering enough mages to destroy them purely by evocation spam.

Meanwhile you also cant add any melee troops to that army. Because they will run in and get themselves killed or sick.
(commanders meanwhile still run up behind them like muppets if commanded to stay behind troops).

Else. Did we talk about making a unique head slot D booster for Arbok?
Since it cant use a skull staff.

Edit.
Rappiddash rider. It has 4 melee attacks now. Perhaps cut stomp?
Alakazam Champion. I would like to state now that if its allowed to keep its tp, then it will make people cry.
Machop. Perhaps being able to hit regular infantry with a 30 damage kick is overkill?
Team Rockets Grunt Acolyte. Minor spelling error in fluf text. fault instead of fall.

Also a little worried about just how strong Violet City seems to be.
A flying nation is a pain to deal with. Let alone one with so tough flyers.

meanwhile not entirely certain on what i think about the bug nation.

[deuterio12]

Poison Gas being melee likely makes it a little more survivable. But im still a touch worried about just how effective it will be.
As i recall Grimir is size 1? that makes for 5 defence checks against 5 AN damage. That will still shred most human troops.

Maybe, but the humans troops still get to fight for some time before the poison kills them and the grimmers cost 16 gold each whitout being that durable themselves (above average HP sure, but 6 defense means everything's hitting them), so unless they're fighting other elite troops, they won't trade very effectively.

Alright fair so thats where the idea comes from.
All the same i suspect Dom 5 disease is a lot more nasty in general.

Isn't everything nastier in dominions? Like only a few vanilla nations bother to train medics.

And i cant really see how you want to take them out from afar?
Yes they move at a snails pace. But regular archers wont do.
And its going to be really hard mustering enough mages to destroy them purely by evocation spam.

They have 9 morale base, you don't need to destroy them to the last HP, just rough them up a bit and they'll turn and flee.

Also 8 mr so once magic starts coming online they'll be extra vulnerable.

Meanwhile you also cant add any melee troops to that army. Because they will run in and get themselves killed or sick.
(commanders meanwhile still run up behind them like muppets if commanded to stay behind troops).

Don't you use the hold x 5 for basic commanders?

Yes, not mixing well with other allied troops is a feature.

And again, regular 10 gold troops should be enough to take the 16 gold 6 defense 9 morale grimmers out. They'll probably die or end diseased but it'll still be profitable.

So basically the idea is that grimmers fill the role of anti-elite troops that demand careful positioning to use properly.

Else. Did we talk about making a unique head slot D booster for Arbok?
Since it cant use a skull staff.

You said that or an awe item and an ironskin one for thugging. Did a misc item for ironscale and a head TM for awe. Can do the D booster too if the other two aren't enough.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe, but the humans troops still get to fight for some time before the poison kills them and the grimmers cost 16 gold each whitout being that durable themselves (above average HP sure, but 6 defense means everything's hitting them), so unless they're fighting other elite troops, they won't trade very effectively.

Well. They might get a round or two to fight in?
But i suspect if you test them, that Grimmir will prove quite durable. 14 hp, 14 prot, 8 defence as well as being 5 on a square.
I suspect they will trade favorable with most human hp units without PR.

Isn't everything nastier in dominions? Like only a few vanilla nations bother to train medics.

Well there its less a choice of training medics.
And more having someone to train your initial medic so that the knowlede spread though your nation.

They have 9 morale base, you don't need to destroy them to the last HP, just rough them up a bit and they'll turn and flee.

Also 8 mr so once magic starts coming online they'll be extra vulnerable.

Not that vulnerable? I mean yes alright you need to invest in good leaders. But thats not so hard.
And AOE MR spells are kinda rare. Especially ones useable to counter large groups of Muuk or Grimir.

Don't you use the hold x 5 for basic commanders?

Yes, not mixing well with other allied troops is a feature.

And again, regular 10 gold troops should be enough to take the 16 gold 6 defense 9 morale grimmers out. They'll probably die or end diseased but it'll still be profitable.

So basically the idea is that grimmers fill the role of anti-elite troops that demand careful positioning to use properly.

I do. then after 5 rounds. If the enemy archers have not run away. Then the idiot runs up behind the Grimir to get his choice of hate-bola or tyfus.

And problem is, i suspect Grimir will trash most of those regular 10 gold troops.
So instead of having trouble using Grimir properly, it becomes an option to use them like a sledgehammer.
And spam them. Especially because the nation lacks other good front rank choices.

You said that or an awe item and an ironskin one for thugging. Did a misc item for ironscale and a head TM for awe. Can do the D booster too if the other two aren't enough.

Well i worry they will see limited use otherwise.
Not certain if they are a bit to expensive for D3 alone.

repeating this since i edited it in.
Edit.
Rappiddash rider. It has 4 melee attacks now. Perhaps cut stomp?
Alakazam Champion. I would like to state now that if its allowed to keep its tp, then it will make people cry.
Machop. Perhaps being able to hit regular infantry with a 30 damage kick is overkill?
Team Rockets Grunt Acolyte. Minor spelling error in fluf text. fault instead of fall.

Also a little worried about just how strong Violet City seems to be.
A flying nation is a pain to deal with. Let alone one with so tough flyers.

meanwhile not entirely certain on what i think about the bug nation.

[deuterio12]

Well there its less a choice of training medics.
And more having someone to train your initial medic so that the knowlede spread though your nation.

Hey, they don't have that much trouble researching all kinds of destructive magic, including from paths they can't even cast.

Well. They might get a round or two to fight in?
But i suspect if you test them, that Grimmir will prove quite durable. 14 hp, 14 prot, 8 defence as well as being 5 on a square.
I suspect they will trade favorable with most human hp units without PR.



Not that vulnerable? I mean yes alright you need to invest in good leaders. But thats not so hard.
And AOE MR spells are kinda rare. Especially ones useable to counter large groups of Muuk or Grimir.



I do. then after 5 rounds. If the enemy archers have not run away. Then the idiot runs up behind the Grimir to get his choice of hate-bola or tyfus.

And problem is, i suspect Grimir will trash most of those regular 10 gold troops.
So instead of having trouble using Grimir properly, it becomes an option to use them like a sledgehammer.
And spam them. Especially because the nation lacks other good front rank choices.

Ok, since the problem seems to be more with the armored grimmers, I'll remove the disease aura from them (justified with armor blocking it off) but keep it on the unarmored grimmers, and reduce it on the shield grimmers, how does that sound?

Well i worry they will see limited use otherwise.
Not certain if they are a bit to expensive for D3 alone.

repeating this since i edited it in.
Edit.
Rappiddash rider. It has 4 melee attacks now. Perhaps cut stomp?
Alakazam Champion. I would like to state now that if its allowed to keep its tp, then it will make people cry.
Machop. Perhaps being able to hit regular infantry with a 30 damage kick is overkill?
Team Rockets Grunt Acolyte. Minor spelling error in fluf text. fault instead of fall.

-Well Arbok Champion is still H3 so that alone would make them worth recruiting, Fuschia sure loved spamming them, but ok will add a D booster.
-Will remove stomp from rapidash rider.
-Alakazam champion with tp didn't make people cry this game.
-In this game Saffron spammed quite a lot of machops but still didn't go very far. Also barbarian damage isn't that different, and barbarians are more durable to boot.
-Fixed too.

Also a little worried about just how strong Violet City seems to be.
A flying nation is a pain to deal with. Let alone one with so tough flyers.

meanwhile not entirely certain on what i think about the bug nation.

That's what test games are for!

Pokémon 1.103 with updated heavy/shield grimers and the other changes.

[Aeson]

Don't you use the hold x 5 for basic commanders?

Assuming by 'basic commander' you don't just mean the common indy Commander but instead mean any of a number of cheap low-end commanders, I actually prefer to set them to something like Fire Closest if they have a ranged attack with adequate range and ammunition, because a commander with a short bow and 10 arrows will generally stay further away from the melee longer than a commander who's just been told to hold for five turns and then stay behind troops, and I don't think they're any more likely to rush into the melee and get themselves killed after running out of ammunition than 'stay behind troops' commanders are once the hold orders run out, given the behavior I see from 'stay behind troops' commanders who reach the mass of line infantry.. Of course, the most common basic commanders don't have a ranged attack and a lot of the rest have something less than entirely useful for staying out of trouble (like a javelin), so it's kind of a moot point unless you're willing and able to equip them with magic bows or spellcasting items.

[lord_khaine]

Ok, since the problem seems to be more with the armored grimmers, I'll remove the disease aura from them (justified with armor blocking it off) but keep it on the unarmored grimmers, and reduce it on the shield grimmers, how does that sound?

Hmm.. problem is of course in part that you cant selectively target the disease spreading Grimmers.
How about giving the unarmored ones poison cloud 1 instead?
Toxic waste is likely closer to be a poison in most cases anyway.

-Well Arbok Champion is still H3 so that alone would make them worth recruiting, Fuschia sure loved spamming them, but ok will add a D booster.

I mean. Main use of a H3 is either for blessing all your sacreds (but Fuchiva's sacreds are hard to use).
Or for a throne rush. So only useful in limited amounts. And Fuchiva didnt do so well as i recalled?

-Alakazam champion with tp didn't make people cry this game.

2 options there.
a) everyone is sufficiently hardend from fighting X-Heim that they just shead a single manly tear.
b) Saffrons player lacked experience making peoples life hell with thug raiding.
But in my current LA game, people have already pumped several PD values up to 20-30.

-In this game Saffron spammed quite a lot of machops but still didn't go very far. Also barbarian damage isn't that different, and barbarians are more durable to boot.

Barbarians are not that much more durable except to archer fire.
Machops meanwhile have 10 attacks per square, higher defence value. And most important of all, are not undisciplined.

[deuterio12]

Assuming by 'basic commander' you don't just mean the common indy Commander but instead mean any of a number of cheap low-end commanders, I actually prefer to set them to something like Fire Closest if they have a ranged attack with adequate range and ammunition, because a commander with a short bow and 10 arrows will generally stay further away from the melee longer than a commander who's just been told to hold for five turns and then stay behind troops, and I don't think they're any more likely to rush into the melee and get themselves killed after running out of ammunition than 'stay behind troops' commanders are once the hold orders run out, given the behavior I see from 'stay behind troops' commanders who reach the mass of line infantry.. Of course, the most common basic commanders don't have a ranged attack and a lot of the rest have something less than entirely useful for staying out of trouble (like a javelin), so it's kind of a moot point unless you're willing and able to equip them with magic bows or spellcasting items.

Sure, if you can recruit bow commanders it's better to tell to do archery duty (although in the other hand archer commanders can also be sniped if you don't have other archers). Giving them a cheap skull talisman or similar is also a good idea if available.

Hmm.. problem is of course in part that you cant selectively target the disease spreading Grimmers.
How about giving the unarmored ones poison cloud 1 instead?
Toxic waste is likely closer to be a poison in most cases anyway.

The grimers fluff text specifically calls bacteria besides assorted toxic waste, which would count as diseases.

Plus disease isn't that phyrric, quite on the contrary. Most of my armies were diseased at the end of the last Pokémon game, but I still got Celadon to surrender because they knew my diseased troops would still last enough to finish him off.

I mean. Main use of a H3 is either for blessing all your sacreds (but Fuchiva's sacreds are hard to use).
Or for a throne rush. So only useful in limited amounts. And Fuchiva didnt do so well as i recalled?

Capturing thrones wins games. If Celadon had extra H3s easily available they would've won the last game, but since theirs were a lot more limited (only their prophet and hero), they didn't manage to capture fast enough.

2 options there.
a) everyone is sufficiently hardend from fighting X-Heim that they just shead a single manly tear.
b) Saffrons player lacked experience making peoples life hell with thug raiding.
But in my current LA game, people have already pumped several PD values up to 20-30.

To be fair, Saffron's players managed to find out a really obscure mod command for me, so he can't be that inexperienced.

Plus he managed a nasty push against Fuschia and siege their cap, but turns out magicpower troops with mr-negate attacks don't do so well on Drain scales which Fuschia had taken.

At the end I also glimpsed him sending some teleporting forces at Celadon late game. Not enough to stop the salad hordes, but slowed them down a bit.

Barbarians are not that much more durable except to archer fire.
Machops meanwhile have 10 attacks per square, higher defence value. And most important of all, are not undisciplined.

True, but then barbarians are indie troops, while low kick and karate chop both have 0 length. Case in point, machops vs national troops:


Even with ten attacks per square and the low kick bonus and numeric advantage, the machops get repelled a lot in the initial engagement and end up suffering about as x4 casualities before routing.

Then consider your average shield unit with 10 armor plus the shield's 16 protection. Even with the x3 multiplier low kick would only hit for average 4 damage if they can't overcome said shield.

[lord_khaine]

Plus disease isn't that phyrric, quite on the contrary. Most of my armies were diseased at the end of the last Pokémon game, but I still got Celadon to surrender because they knew my diseased troops would still last enough to finish him off.

That was during the artillery phase.
And im not how much worse it will affect someone who instead rely on their melee sacreds.

To be fair, Saffron's players managed to find out a really obscure mod command for me, so he can't be that inexperienced.
Plus he managed a nasty push against Fuschia and siege their cap, but turns out magicpower troops with mr-negate attacks don't do so well on Drain scales which Fuschia had taken.
At the end I also glimpsed him sending some teleporting forces at Celadon late game. Not enough to stop the salad hordes, but slowed them down a bit.

Fair point. He just dont have a raiding style then.

Even with ten attacks per square and the low kick bonus and numeric advantage, the machops get repelled a lot in the initial engagement and end up suffering about as x4 casualities before routing.

Then consider your average shield unit with 10 armor plus the shield's 16 protection. Even with the x3 multiplier low kick would only hit for average 4 damage if they can't overcome said shield.

Alright so they are not quite as good as steel maidens.
But that apply for everyone fighting units with shields. And when the kick does hit, then it kills even blackplate infantry.

[deuterio12]

That was during the artillery phase.
And im not how much worse it will affect someone who instead rely on their melee sacreds.

There's the recuperation bless which is nice to have even if not fighting Fuschia if you care to avoid your melee sacreds building up afflictions (plus helps greatly with old sacred mages and thugs in general too)

Also the classic regen bless makes disease a lot more survivable since you get to heal in battle.

Alright so they are not quite as good as steel maidens.
But that apply for everyone fighting units with shields. And when the kick does hit, then it kills even blackplate infantry.

Eeerrr, blackplate is 23 protection and the low kick is bludgeoning, even a 30 base damage low kick will need a good roll to actually deal 10 damage over that.

Mind you there's no blacklate infantry in EA, but there's stuff like Abysia infantry with 17 protection and 15 HP (32 combined physical durability) that thus have good odds of surviving the kick. EA Iceclads can reach 22 protection in cold 3.

Then don't forget how dominions mechanics work, each hit attacks a specific body location, and if the hit location is an arm or leg, then damage is capped at half the unit's max HP. So even against light infantry, a significant amount of kicks will just break a leg or arm instead of killing the target outright.

[lord_khaine]

If a single unit forces you to pick up a 5 point nature bless then i think said unit is twisted the game to much around itself.
And regeneration meanwhile dont protectagainst all the afflictions.

Meanwhile on second though i dont think Steel Maidens are a good comparison point.
Since they are firstly one of the units best suited to countering them.
And secondly from a magically weak nation.

A good point of comparison would be a Bandar Swordsman.
Or perhaps a Ur Guard, or a C'tis City guard.

And i also think though focusing on the wrong part, when a size 1, what is it 10 gold unit?
has a meaningful chance of 1-shotting someone though black plate.

[deuterio12]

If you don't mind your sacreds suffering from afflictions from all the other possible sources, one can always just take the disease and keep fighting for multiple months. Disease it's not an auto-win button against sacreds.

And geez, who would deploy Bandar swordman and ur-guard against low-HP 0 protection units? Yes, machops (which currently cost 11 gold) win those ones, but those were terrible match-ups since the other side are size 3 with a single high-damage attack and short weapons to boot.

City guards lose as well but as their name indicates they're meant to be holding city walls, not out there fighting.

C'tis has falchioners and chariots, Kailasa has their own size 1 units with ranged attacks to boot, why not use those against low-HP/protection enemies?

Not sure what to do with Ur, but that nation was always in the weaker side.

[Manticoran]

The concern to me with these kinds of units is not even really how good they are out the bat, but how good are they with marble warriors/strength of Giants/lucky or something. I suspect these take buffs and turn into lawnmowers.

A good comparison point for very strong size one recruitables at this point is Bakemono from yomi or shinu. They're very very good and shut down a number of nations, so I'd consider if the units are better than Bakemono they may be too strong.

[lord_khaine]

Its close to being once since these opponent also has a AN attack.
Taking some damage is almost certain.
And now your also kinda screwed next fight, since you start on ½ hp.

Else. Well alright, can also test them agains C'tis heavy Infantry.
Or Abysian Axe Infantry. Those are also kinda generic. And will give a better point of comparison than measuring up against a "tailored"counter.

And Ur isnt weak! i won a game with them recently.
or wait that was Uruk.

A good comparison point for very strong size one recruitables at this point is Bakemono from yomi or shinu. They're very very good and shut down a number of nations, so I'd consider if the units are better than Bakemono they may be too strong.

My suspicion is that Bakemono gets -wasted- since these guys have 2 attacks..
And yeah they would rock with lucky. Dont need SoG though. Already hit hard enough.

[Aeson]

And geez, who would deploy Bandar swordman and ur-guard against low-HP 0 protection units?

Someone whose most readily available armies were built to fight something else. Unless you're willing to leave an invasion essentially uncontested while you build a new army, you have to fight with the armies that you actually have, and the armies you actually have are not always the armies that you really want to have for fighting the enemy you're currently fighting.

Mind you, the reality that people sometimes have to accept suboptimal matchups isn't necessarily a cause to make balance changes based on said suboptimal matchups.

The concern to me with these kinds of units is not even really how good they are out the bat, but how good are they with marble warriors/strength of Giants/lucky or something. I suspect these take buffs and turn into lawnmowers.

I very much agree with this.

[tyckspoon]

My suspicion is that Bakemono gets -wasted- since these guys have 2 attacks..
And yeah they would rock with lucky. Dont need SoG though. Already hit hard enough.

Yari bakemono would probably do pretty well - 2 length 0 attacks is just two opportunities to get repelled, which can mess you up pretty badly if you're not an elite troop with enough morale to mostly ignore the repel check.

[deuterio12]

Its close to being once since these opponent also has a AN attack.
Taking some damage is almost certain.
And now your also kinda screwed next fight, since you start on ½ hp.

Most of melee sacred strats are meant precisely to avoid damage, either with really high defense scores or high protection. Grimers aren't exactly easy to replace and slow to move both in and outside of battle, so if you take out the initial wave, you'll have maneuvering room to do quite a bit of damage.

Else. Well alright, can also test them agains C'tis heavy Infantry.
Or Abysian Axe Infantry. Those are also kinda generic. And will give a better point of comparison than measuring up against a "tailored"counter.

Someone whose most readily available armies were built to fight something else. Unless you're willing to leave an invasion essentially uncontested while you build a new army, you have to fight with the armies that you actually have, and the armies you actually have are not always the armies that you really want to have for fighting the enemy you're currently fighting.

"Tailored"? "Unless"?

When poison-filled Celadon invaded Ermor, Ermor didn't charge straight at them, they pulled back and started recruiting poison-resistant troops. Lord Khaine himself was guiding Ermor at the time.

When shock-immune Pewter invaded Vermillion, Vermillion didn't charge straight at them with their army specialized in dealing shock damage, they pulled back and started recruiting alternatives. Vermillion pulled back so much that at one point Pewter actually held more land than Vermillion, but then Vermillion had their "tailored" army ready, started to strike back and went on not only to wipe out Pewter but also "tailor" their next army to counter Celadon and win the game.

"Tailoring" armies is half of dominions. There's no flawless strat that wins against everything (or at least there shouldn't be), you need to pick your counters, and avoid unfaorable match-ups. If that means giving ground for some time, so be it. That's military tactics 101. You only fight an unfavorable battle if you've got your back cornered and have nowhere else to go (or you run into an ambush/trap).

And machops may be great in melee but still zero protection low-hp, so ranged is the way to go against them.

I used berytos archers since they were easier to mass in a test game, but combat-wise they're virtually the same as regular indie archers, 10 gold for 10 precision/strength and 8 morale. The machops get routed before making it into melee. So there you have it, if there's a big machop army coming your way, get some indie archers and they'll be gone in no time.

And if for some rotten luck you found zero archer provinces, surely you at least found some slingers.

The machops actually manage to reach melee but only take out 3 slingers before routing.

Also somebody said Bakemono?


How about we ignore that bakemono are much cheaper than machops and deploy the same number on both sides?

Still a flawless victory for the signficantly cheaper army.

So basically machops get shredded by even basic ranged attacks, thus if they also get handily beaten by any basic melee infantry out there (not taking in account dual-wielding infantry and chariots and whatnot, which C'tis/Ulm often recruit for their expansion and core armies anyway)... What would even be the point of recruiting machops then?

Mind you, the reality that people sometimes have to accept suboptimal matchups isn't necessarily a cause to make balance changes based on said suboptimal matchups.

Precisely. If you're fighting Abysia and you decide to charge at them with an army of only vine men guided by fire mages, that's no reason to nerf Abyssia.

And Ur isnt weak! i won a game with them recently.
or wait that was Uruk.

Yeah, Uruk's troops have significantly better equipment than Ur while avoiding physical degenerancy like the other giant nations so it's a straight upgrade from EA plus Uruk can spam S2 mages.

The concern to me with these kinds of units is not even really how good they are out the bat, but how good are they with marble warriors/strength of Giants/lucky or something. I suspect these take buffs and turn into lawnmowers.

Machops have 6 base mr and still low HP, so when magic starts becoming a thing, sure you can buff them but the enemy will have magic of their own. They better be lucky to don't get instantly wiped out by shadow blasts and lighting and whatnot coming their way.

[lord_khaine]

I honestly dont think any of these tests says anything.
Yes Machop will get shredded by archers or other ranged attacks.
But you cant balance a unit on how it does against its counter. You need to do that against a baseline of some sort.
Or better yet a selection of baseline units. Not an outlier like Steel Maidens.

It also doesnt help anything that Machop are weak against missile units.
If your opponent starts building huge stacks of slingers then you already won a huge advantage.
Since slingers are not very good against most other things. And thats beside how you cant even specifically make your slinger target something.
Its quite likely they waste all their ammo on 10 guys with shields running specifically for them.

As for the low MR. Well yes you can kill them in decently large numbers if you spam shadowblast.
But thats only until someone else makes them Lucky. Then the effect is suddenly cut by 75%.

[Manticoran]

Or if someone casts Arrow Fend. God help you if they're Arrow Fend/Lucky/Marble Warriors/Strength of Giants or something. These guys take buffs like you wouldn't believe.

EDIT: I'll note that the MR6 definitely makes them answerable, but not every nation gets to target MR as a kill method. These are guys I'd feel more comfortable with as a gem outlet than a gold outlet, maybe something like 1 earth gem for 8-10? Leave upkeep on them. Lets you still spam them in pretty high numbers, but makes them reasonably cost efficient.

Another note as a possibility is use Blood Slaves as a Fighting Type income? Flavor it as like, the product of bloodsport arenas or something.

[deuterio12]

I honestly dont think any of these tests says anything.
Yes Machop will get shredded by archers or other ranged attacks.
But you cant balance a unit on how it does against its counter. You need to do that against a baseline of some sort.
Or better yet a selection of baseline units. Not an outlier like Steel Maidens.

It also doesnt help anything that Machop are weak against missile units.
If your opponent starts building huge stacks of slingers then you already won a huge advantage.
Since slingers are not very good against most other things. And thats beside how you cant even specifically make your slinger target something.
Its quite likely they waste all their ammo on 10 guys with shields running specifically for them.

Why do archers count as outlier units? Line of shields with archers behind is as basic as dominions armies get. Lots of indies have archers. A selection of "baseline units" in dominions that doesn't include archers doesn't sound very baseline to me.

And in EA where armor is lower in average even slingers aren't too shabby to bring around, always help with siege efforts. This is, the rest of Saffron isn't exactly brimming with heavily armored units either.

Plus from my experience the AI does prioritize low-protection targets if not told to prioritize something else. That's for what Fire(none) is.

Case in point the great veterain pretenders always ended up focus fired by indie archers/slingers despite spawning a bunch of pokémon on front of them.

As for the low MR. Well yes you can kill them in decently large numbers if you spam shadowblast.
But thats only until someone else makes them Lucky. Then the effect is suddenly cut by 75%.

Shadowblast is also a whooping 6+ area of effect compared to Battle Fortune's fixed 5 (that's also higher research level). And Shadowblast also has 35+range, so the machops will get nuked more than once.

Plus lucky won't save the machops from fear/poison effects and whatnot.

Or if someone casts Arrow Fend. God help you if they're Arrow Fend/Lucky/Marble Warriors/Strength of Giants or something. These guys take buffs like you wouldn't believe.

That's quite high research, and Saffron doesn't even have any native air mages. Also the other pretender god just casts foul vapor and they still drop dead easy. Or some random w/n mage, no need for the pretender god to get their hands dirty.

EDIT: I'll note that the MR6 definitely makes them answerable, but not every nation gets to target MR as a kill method. These are guys I'd feel more comfortable with as a gem outlet than a gold outlet, maybe something like 1 earth gem for 8-10? Leave upkeep on them. Lets you still spam them in pretty high numbers, but makes them reasonably cost efficient.

Another note as a possibility is use Blood Slaves as a Fighting Type income? Flavor it as like, the product of bloodsport arenas or something.

No, I'm not turning Saffron into a blood nation. Also they're the psychic nation. Their national magic rituals are for more psychic Pokémon. The fighting Pokémon are there as pseudo-slaves/servants/second-class citizens following the fluff. No Saffron mage is gonna spend precious gems for them.

[Aeson]

Also they're the psychic nation. Their national magic rituals are for more psychic Pokémon. The fighting Pokémon are there as pseudo-slaves/servants/second-class citizens following the fluff. No Saffron mage is gonna spend precious gems for them.

That's nice. What relevance does it have to the reality that Machop takes buffs well?

That's quite high research, and Saffron doesn't even have any native air mages.

Saffron's lack of native air magic isn't particularly relevant. They're set up for communions, they have the paths to forge Crystal Matrices natively, there's enough indy A mages out there that it's not incredibly unlikely that they could find one or two by the stage of the game where that list of buffs could be in play, and to top it off if you're already buffing with Marble Warriors then Arrow Fend is more nice-to-have than necessary against typical EA ranged units.

Also the other pretender god just casts foul vapor and they still drop dead easy.

Poison Ward's fairly easy to cast and goes a long ways towards countering that. If you have Arrow Fend, then you have Poison Ward (and the battlefield version - Serpent's Blessing - isn't that far off, all things considered), and Saffron's mages have the paths necessary to cast it.

This is, the rest of Saffron isn't exactly brimming with heavily armored units either.

Saffron has a bunch of S mages with possible W, E, and N crosspaths, and by EA standards even Barkskin's 10 protection isn't bad. They can rectify a lot of their protection issues fairly easily if they have the time to do a bit of research.

[Manticoran]

Protection is honestly the least relevant stat for claiming a unit is bad, as it's so easy to buff or make irrelevant. Hell, just casting lucky and ethereal make a square of these guys stupid hard to kill vs most things, and I think the moment they don't need to worry about dying instantly they'll chop through most units at a pretty brutal speed.

[lord_khaine]

My worry is more that they likely dont even need magic to be brokenly powerful.
I suspect a shield screen is enough to divert archers, since they just as often seems to focus on the closest target.
And if that happens, then i suspect its a rather extreme outlier that Shield Maidens won.
Most other melee units are going to be crushed by the 30 damage kick.

[Manticoran]

What's the combat move speed on these guys actually? If it's pretty low (6ish) they're probably fine as they'll rarely hit first.

[lord_khaine]

They are combat speed 12.
They also got 14 defence, and 2 attacks.
One who are AP, and one who does tripple damage to larger targets.
As such they are both cool and flavorfull.

They are just seems like abuse waiting to happen

[tyckspoon]

They are combat speed 12.
They also got 14 defence, and 2 attacks.
One who are AP, and one who does tripple damage to larger targets.
As such they are both cool and flavorfull.

They are just seems like abuse waiting to happen

Less elite stats might help. If they had lower attack/defense stats they'd be fairly easy to defend against via repel.

[Manticoran]

Even elite troops usually only have like twelve base, and punching or biting or whatever people usually imposes defense penalties. With crappy defense these could be totally manageable.

It'd help a lot of aoe things like trample are defense saves too.

[deuterio12]

That's nice. What relevance does it have to the reality that Machop takes buffs well?

I'm afraid that the super-buffed machop army of doom still remains in the realm of pure theory and failed to materialize so far.

Poison Ward's fairly easy to cast and goes a long ways towards countering that. If you have Arrow Fend, then you have Poison Ward (and the battlefield version - Serpent's Blessing - isn't that far off, all things considered), and Saffron's mages have the paths necessary to cast it.

Yet you still forgot to cast it. A single spell countered your whole multi-buff stacking.

Saffron has a bunch of S mages with possible W, E, and N crosspaths, and by EA standards even Barkskin's 10 protection isn't bad. They can rectify a lot of their protection issues fairly easily if they have the time to do a bit of research.

See, that's nice in theory, but in practice if Saffron tries to set up a communion for all their crosspaths you'll be lucky if any of the communion slaves survives to the end because if the mage lacks the crosspath of the master, they'll rack up a lot of extra fatigue that will kill them.

You said arrow-fend is "nice to have", but even if you luck out in indie air mages it would be a pretty phyrric move as none of Saffron's mages have air and so their slaves would die from fatigue even faster.

Fun fact, EA Arco is currently a top tier nation at EA, and a good reason for that is Mystics having lots of different paths make them the best communion slaves around since it's much easier to set things up so they don't rack up fatigue super fast. You can't just throw a bunch of pure S mage slaves at a master casting other paths of magic and call it a day any more in Dominions 5 like you could in previous versions.

My worry is more that they likely dont even need magic to be brokenly powerful.
I suspect a shield screen is enough to divert archers, since they just as often seems to focus on the closest target.
And if that happens, then i suspect its a rather extreme outlier that Shield Maidens won.
Most other melee units are going to be crushed by the 30 damage kick.

I believe your suspicions about archers are unfounded. I ended up with Fuschia and been doing quite a bit of expansion testing, and their starting army happens to include a bunch of low protection nidorans. I recruit heavy grimmers right away.

Quite reliably, indie archers/slingers will target the hell out of the nidorans even if said nidorans are positioned all the way back and the heavy grimmers are as forward as possible.

They are combat speed 12.
They also got 14 defence, and 2 attacks.
One who are AP, and one who does tripple damage to larger targets.
As such they are both cool and flavorfull.

They are just seems like abuse waiting to happen

Yet said abuse didn't happen last game. Saffron recruited quite a bit of machops and ended up struggling even against indies, yet has also shown to have quite a bit of dominions experience. He even suggested a bunch of tweaks for the nation overall, but at no point complained of machops.

This next game there's both Saffron under the same player ready for another go plus a Viridian player that can also recruit (chaos) machops, so I'll reserve my judgement on them until they see actual action.

[lord_khaine]

Yet said abuse didn't happen last game. Saffron recruited quite a bit of machops and ended up struggling even against indies, yet has also shown to have quite a bit of dominions experience. He even suggested a bunch of tweaks for the nation overall, but at no point complained of machops.

This next game there's both Saffron under the same player ready for another go plus a Viridian player that can also recruit (chaos) machops, so I'll reserve my judgement on them until they see actual action.

Well.. last game ran on the version where just about every pokemon was a ranget unit. So thats not quite representative of the current state of things.

As for the next game, well the issue there is that i fear its not other Pokemon units i fear Matchop is OP against.
Its the regular dom 5 nations. Where i fear Matchop will tear though the majority of their troop lines even before magic get into play.

[deuterio12]

Vanilla nations can get archers. Anybody can get archers. Archers counter machops. Even if you bring shield bait. Here's a custom battle to show that.



I put the heavy machops as front as possible and the naked machops all the way in the back, but as you can see the archers still go after the naked machops.



To be fair the machops do manage to reach melee this time, but it's too little too late and they break soon after.



The AI prioritizes scoring kills, and naked machops are just too much of a tasty target for archers so even shield bait can't reliably protect them.