Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Peelee]

In our world, sure. But I see nothing contradictory about the idea that Lord Shojo can bring charges against people and that Miko can also do the same in relation to separate crimes.

In any case, as hamish has pointed out, the author remarked that "Miko has never lied, to the best of our ability to tell"- prior to the trial scene, sure, but if you're arguing that using the word 'charge' was inherently a falsehood because she's attached to a legal system, then I don't see how to square that.

A.)

If you want to argue that we don't know whether that's the case for the Sapphire Guard, then that sword cuts both ways, and you can't declare Miko capable of charging them regardless.

B.) Again, Miko could be simply wrong without lying (as is, in my experience, often the case when asked, "are you saying I'm lying?").

[Lacuna Caster]

Again, Miko could be simply wrong without lying (as is, in my experience, often the case when asked, "are you saying I'm lying?").

But where are you getting this idea that Miko was factually wrong about 'charges'? You're the one making the positive assertion, so you need to make the case.

[Prinygod]

Then you missed

and

And once again- simply saying to someone, "I have no more wish to discuss this with you" hardly rates as an attack.

I am not seeing anything wrong there, its clearly a hypothetical. They are not stating that Shojo actually said that. No mention of alternative cannon. And this was not what GWc was objecting too, even when I restated the question, he still refused to respond to it. It wasn't the messenger it was the message that triggered him.

[Lacuna Caster]

I am not seeing anything wrong there, its clearly a hypothetical. They are not stating that Shojo actually said that. No mention of alternative cannon. And this was not what GWc was objecting too, even when I restated the question, he still refused to respond to it. It wasn't the messenger it was the message that triggered him.

Yeah, this. To be clear, I'm not trying to impose some alternative universe where Shojo actually ordered the OOTS's execution. I'm just pointing out that it's roughly as absurd to try and impose "Mr. Scruffy says" on strip-200-Miko as it is to try and impose strip-200-Miko on "Mr. Scruffy says". The pre and post-BoPLaG portions of the narrative don't fit together, for this among various other reasons.

[Peelee]

You're the one making the positive assertion

Wheeeeeee!

Miko can always 'charge' them herself

[Lacuna Caster]

Wheeeeeee!

Okay, fine, I amend my statement. It is possible that Miko could always charge them herself, just as it is possible that actual legal charges were being pressed against the LG/Belkar. So, again, what are you proving here?

[Darth Paul]

Yeah, this. To be clear, I'm not trying to impose some alternative universe where Shojo actually ordered the OOTS's execution. I'm just pointing out that it's roughly as absurd to try and impose "Mr. Scruffy says" on strip-200-Miko as it is to try and impose strip-200-Miko on "Mr. Scruffy says". The pre and post-BoPLaG portions of the narrative don't fit together, for this among various other reasons.

Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG. So, sure, you can certainly argue that post-Eugene Miko is a violent and deluded fanatic, but she effectively occupies a different universe from pre-Eugene Miko, and I don't consider it fair to judge her by the same evidence.

Not intending to harp on this subject, but you're denying saying what you're saying? That there are 2 canons to OotS? Because I can't figure out another way to read these statements. My problem is, we have to accept the comic as a single canon except where the author himself states we should disregard it ("Evard's Spiked Tentacles" for instance).

People do go through radical character changes due to stress. Meeting the Order, and all that followed, was the worst experience of Miko's life. I don't find it surprising or mystifying that she cracked after a lifetime of being on the edge.

I don't believe Shojo ever DID order the Order's execution. Miko, in her zealousness, concluded that the only possible penalty for their crimes must be death, and short-circuited through the trial in her mind. Yes, it was a huge error to send her of all people to make the arrest. On the other hand, she might have been the only one who was capable of single-handedly bringing them in, so no other choice was possible unless he wanted to have a strike team of paladins roaming the countryside calling attention to themselves, and that would be even worse.

[Peelee]

Okay, fine, I amend my statement. It is possible that Miko could always charge them herself, just as it is possible that actual legal charges were being pressed against the LG/Belkar. So, again, what are you proving here?

Just that, I'm good now. Common ground we can both agree on.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not intending to harp on this subject, but you're denying saying what you're saying? That there are 2 canons to OotS? Because I can't figure out another way to read these statements.

I mean "goes out the window" in the sense of "becomes unsustainably contradictory/implausible." The reasons for this don't particularly hinge on Miko's psychology, though I think the changes there are symptomatic of the same process.

I don't believe Shojo ever DID order the Order's execution. Miko, in her zealousness, concluded that the only possible penalty for their crimes must be death, and short-circuited through the trial in her mind. Yes, it was a huge error to send her of all people to make the arrest. On the other hand, she might have been the only one who was capable of single-handedly bringing them in, so no other choice was possible unless he wanted to have a strike team of paladins roaming the countryside calling attention to themselves, and that would be even worse.

You're not thinking this through. If he simply teleported a team to the Order's location- or asked them to come nicely via Sending first- he wouldn't need to have paladins 'roaming through the countryside' at all. And if diplomacy failed, he could simply teleport in Miko and however much backup she needed to chain them up and bring them in for trial by force. This is not an 'either-or' situation.

[Darth Paul]

I mean "goes out the window" in the sense of "becomes unsustainably contradictory/implausible." The reasons for this don't particularly hinge on Miko's psychology, though I think the changes there are symptomatic of the same process.

You're not thinking this through. If he simply teleported a team to the Order's location- or asked them to come nicely via Sending first- he wouldn't need to have paladins 'roaming through the countryside' at all. And if diplomacy failed, he could simply teleport in Miko and however much backup she needed to chain them up and bring them in for trial by force. This is not an 'either-or' situation.

On your first statement: okay, fair enough, I guess. You're welcome to that view.

Second, though; Shojo's stated goal is to bring the Order in secretly. The more agents he has involved in this, the less secret it becomes. It's the difference between the Prime Minister sending James Bond 007 to bring someone in for questioning, or calling them on the phone. In fact it's exactly analogous, because Bond usually ends up doing exactly the sort of things Miko does.

First problem: Sending only works with a creature with whom you're "familiar". (The Prime Minister would need to know the target's phone number...) Roy etc. are unknowns. Second: even if Sending can be made to work, they may or may not be willing to come along to Azure City (and given his information from Eugene, it's unlikely that they would come along; it's actually against their interests). So why risk alerting them by a Sending?

And even if they're contacted, if they don't want to come, you have to lock down their location. Then the business of teleporting to an unfamiliar location carries risks. You don't want to lose your paladins that way.

Instead, he sends a single elite agent to bring them in, whether they want to come or not.

See? I have thought this through.

Also, consider the stress Shojo is under. He's having to fake senility to avoid the ruling families overthrowing him and starting a civil war. He may not always make the best decisions. Keep in mind:

Well, humans often have irrational behaviour. Irrationality combined with stress makes people do really dumb things. Why should humans in a stick figure comic strip be any different?

[Lacuna Caster]

Second, though; Shojo's stated goal is to bring the Order in secretly. The more agents he has involved in this, the less secret it becomes.

This doesn't make any sense. There are multiple paladins and clerics present during the Order's trial scene, so Shojo clearly had no real hope of keeping their arrest a secret from the Guard at large. Using Teleport/Wind Walk to expedite travel, however, would minimise the time they spent in the field and thus minimise the risk of exposing their mission to the outside world.

Secondly, it's been established (when the cleric of loki tried to contact Durkon from greysky, for example), that sufficiently detailed descriptions of the subject are sufficient for a Sending spell. Now, sure, Roy might not be automatically comfortable with being collected for a trial, but Shojo could probably give some assurance that the proceedings would be "quick and painless", and his paladins are supposed to be giving them fair warning first, anyway. He can literally teleport an escort to the same spot fifteen minutes later if he needs to, and we know that he has diviners that can Scry their location because Sangwaan does exactly this to identify them as culprits for blowing up the Gate.

None of this, by the way, touches on the problem that Shojo, Eugene and Sangwaan never provide Miko with a complete description of the Order's names, appearances, class features, favoured spells, etc.- much of which is information that simple Scrying would provide and Eugene disguised as a celestial advisor absolutely could. (He never mentions the Linear Guild to Miko, for example.) And none of that touches on the problem that no member of the Guard, including Miko, ever thinks to ask "was there a goblin with a red cloak"?

[Peelee]

This doesn't make any sense. There are multiple paladins and clerics present during the Order's trial scene, so Shojo clearly had no real hope of keeping their arrest a secret from the Guard at large. Using Teleport/Wind Walk to expedite travel, however, would minimise the time they spent in the field and thus minimise the risk of exposing their mission to the outside world.

Wind Walk
Transmutation*[Air]
Level: Clr 6,*Drd 7

Teleport
Conjuration*(Teleportation)
Level:Sor/Wiz 5,*Travel 5

The entire Azure City army had barely over 300 clerics, most under 4th level. Wind Walk requires an 11th level cleric. For all we know, Shojo's wizard was the single person in Azure City capable of casting Teleport, and we don't know what his other duties were. You assume remarkably powerful people are just sitting around waiting for the plot to call on them.

[Lacuna Caster]

The entire Azure City army had barely over 300 clerics, most under 4th level. Wind Walk requires an 11th level cleric. For all we know, Shojo's wizard was the single person in Azure City capable of casting Teleport, and we don't know what his other duties were. You assume remarkably powerful people are just sitting around waiting for the plot to call on them.

Whatever clerics in Shojo's retinue were capable of casting Resurrection and Planar Ally were capable of casting Wind Walk- it's on the standard cleric spell list, used by Durkon personally, referenced by Veldrina & Wrecan, and of lower or equal spell level.

I am willing to bet that Shojo's wizard didn't have anything more pressing to do than literally helping to save the world, and this is also a world where Orbs of Teleportation exist. It's basically not plausible that someone with Shojo's stature, connections and resources wouldn't be able to beg, borrow or steal this kind of service if he wanted to.

[Darth Paul]

At the trial scene, I count 2 clerics (who are there to "summon" Eugene), Hinjo, and Sangwan. The only others are the lawyers. By implication there must also be some guards, since Shojo calls for them at one point. That's not a huge audience.

And again, you're glossing over the difficulties with the teleport spell to an unfamiliar location; besides that, Shojo seems to have only one wizard of high enough level to cast it, from the evidence later in the strip.

You're right, she's never given this detailed information; possibly because that would raise the question of how Shojo got such detailed information. Shojo seems to run things like an intelligence service, compartmentalizing information. You may not think it's a good way to run the city, but it keeps him alive and in power. He only tells people those things he thinks they need to know, and that they think he would logically know. Otherwise, they would suspect he isn't as senile as he pretends to be. Remember the act he's maintaining.

[Peelee]

Whatever clerics in Shojo's retinue were capable of casting Resurrection and Planar Ally were capable of casting Wind Walk- it's on the standard cleric spell list, used by Durkon personally, referenced by Veldrina & Wrecan, and of lower or equal spell level.

I am willing to bet that Shojo's wizard didn't have anything more pressing to do than literally helping to save the world, and this is also a world where Orbs of Teleportation exist. It's basically not plausible that someone with Shojo's stature, connections and resources wouldn't be able to beg, borrow or steal this kind of service if he wanted to.

One cleric of high enough power, and one wizard of high enough power. With, to the best of Shojo's knowledge, no ticking clock.

You can assume they were unavailable for whatever reason (including possibly saving-the-world-in-other-ways reason, the crew of the Mechane complain it happens like once a week, so it's canonically plausible) and be happy, or you can assume it makes no sense and then be upset that it makes no sense.

[Lacuna Caster]

At the trial scene, I count 2 clerics (who are there to "summon" Eugene), Hinjo, and Sangwan. The only others are the lawyers. By implication there must also be some guards, since Shojo calls for them at one point. That's not a huge audience.

True, but it's about the same size as the party you could Teleport to the location, and in any case, keeping the mission secret from the Guard at large is stupid. They're expressly informed about the existence of the Gates/Rift/Snarl specifically so that you can entrust them with this kind of mission. Keeping them in the dark defeats the purpose.

And again, you're glossing over the difficulties with the teleport spell to an unfamiliar location...

Because it's not an unfamiliar location after you Scry on it, which we know that the Guard were able to do. (And if you're really worried about arriving off-target or can't spare the wizard for some reason, again, there's always Wind Walk.)

You're right, she's never given this detailed information; possibly because that would raise the question of how Shojo got such detailed information...

From the celestial visitor floating in his throne room which was summoned for the express purpose of dispensing advice and guidance to the Guard, and from the trained diviners whose literal job is to provide this kind of intelligence.

One cleric of high enough power, and one wizard of high enough power. With, to the best of Shojo's knowledge, no ticking clock.

Shojo explicitly tells Roy that he wants him to head for Girard's Gate as soon as possible, which is the very purpose of lending him a teleporting wizard in the first place. Shojo does indeed believe that there is a ticking clock, because there is- the longer that Xykon goes undiscovered, the higher risk of a threat to some other Gate.

I'm not going to assume they were unavailable for some reason, because I literally can't imagine any job more important, there's nothing to indicate it in the text, and Miko literally spends weeks in transit sooner than wait for their schedule to free up. It's not a plausible sequence of events.

[Peelee]

I'm not going to assume they were unavailable for some reason, because I literally can't imagine any job more important

Do you wish to claim nobody is more imaginative than you?

[Lacuna Caster]

Do you wish to claim nobody is more imaginative than you?

Fine, Peelee. If you literally believe that world-ending threats arrive every goddamn week and that all of Shojo's senior casters were continually engaged in dealing with those problems, congratulations- everything that the Order of the Stick are involved in is completely trivial and mundane, there are no stakes, and nothing that happens in the story matters. Because it'll all get reset next week.

[Aveline]

Personally, I think that if Shojo's decision making were littered with oversights and tactical mistakes, it would make the story more compelling, not less - an illustration of the dangers of large-scale secret-keeping when the stakes are high.

[Peelee]

Fine, Peelee. If you literally believe that world-ending threats arrive every goddamn week and that all of Shojo's senior casters were continually engaged in dealing with those problems, congratulations- everything that the Order of the Stick are involved in is completely trivial and mundane, there are no stakes, and nothing that happens in the story matters. Because it'll all get reset next week.

Jolee: Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces.
Player Character: Are you saying what we're doing isn't important?
Jolee: Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy, we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long. So we do what we have to do and we try to stop the Sith. But don't start thinking this war,*your*war, is more important than any other war just because you're in it.

This is The Order of the Stick, not How The World Was Saved From Every Threat Ever. We're seeing one story. That doesn't mean others don't exist.

[Lacuna Caster]

Personally, I think that if Shojo's decision making were littered with oversights and tactical mistakes, it would make the story more compelling, not less - an illustration of the dangers of large-scale secret-keeping when the stakes are high.

But the problem is that this isn't confined to Shojo. I find it very unlikely that Miko is totally unaware of the existence of long-range magical transport options, but Eugene certainly isn't, and he's supposed to be an equal partner here. I'd also like to imagine that if O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with military experience, wandered in while changing bedpans, he might comment on the strangeness of sending only a single paladin to cope with whatever unknown adversary was capable of vanquishing an epic-level wizard in his fortress stronghold. Everybody involved here has to be clamouring to grip the idiot ball.

This is The Order of the Stick, not How The World Was Saved From Every Threat Ever. We're seeing one story. That doesn't mean others don't exist.

Fine. If the author writes me an 800-page side-story detailing how the frack all this happened, was consistent with the main plotline, and we somehow never heard about it before, I shall be happy to read it. But I doubt that's happening.

[Peelee]

Fine. If the author writes me an 800-page side-story detailing how the frack all this happened, was consistent with the main plotline, and we somehow never heard about it before, I shall be happy to read it. But I doubt that's happening.

I doubt as well, but that's largely because I doubt the author would be happy to devote such a significant amount of effort for a remarkably small minority that thinks such a work is required to enjoy the comic.

[Aveline]

But the problem is that this isn't confined to Shojo. I find it very unlikely that Miko is totally unaware of the existence of long-range magical transport options, but Eugene certainly isn't, and he's supposed to be an equal partner here. I'd also like to imagine that if O-Chul, the speak-truth-to-power guy with military experience, wandered in while changing bedpans, he might comment on the strangeness of sending only a single paladin to cope with whatever unknown adversary was capable of vanquishing an epic-level wizard in his fortress stronghold. Everybody involved here has to be clamouring to grip the idiot ball.

A great deal of this can be attributed to Shojo maintaining his feigned insanity, Shojo working with Eugene to trick the Sapphire Guard at large, Shojo's apparent deference to Eugene on the topics of Xykon and Roy, and Eugene being an utterly self-serving manipulator.

The trial ruse, considered logistically, had several consecutive single-points-of-failure. If Shojo makes an error because he's conflicted himself out of being honest and asking for advisement, or if Eugene leaves out pertinent information because it could lead to questions about his motives and reliability, or if Shojo's subordinates make a mistake because they weren't adequately informed about what's going on, then the whole thing falls apart. They did, and it did.

[Lacuna Caster]

A great deal of this can be attributed to Shojo maintaining his feigned insanity, Shojo working with Eugene to trick the Sapphire Guard at large, Shojo's apparent deference to Eugene on the topics of Xykon and Roy, and Eugene being an utterly self-serving manipulator.

But Eugene isn't being self-serving here at all. Self-service would imply the ruthless pursuit of his own interests, which would mean... sending the paladins themselves directly after Xykon while he's still vulnerable regenerating... but failing that, certainly using teleport, diplomacy, weight of numbers and adequate sharing of intelligence to ensure that his son and his companions can be brought in with minimal fuss. There's no real downside to using magic transport, regardless of their objectives.

Similarly, arguments to the tune that Shojo was being overly-paranoid and cautious don't make any sense. The Order are near-total strangers of varying dependability that don't actually have any tracking skills, one of whom has a violent history with his top paladin. His decision to hire them is an enormous leap of faith and an enormous risk.

And again... why don't the paladins themselves get any say here? Does Miko really never remark on how super convenient it would be to have some way to arrive in the northlands faster? Or ask Sangwaan/the BoPLaG if there's anything else they could tell her about her suspects? And why does no-one involved connect the dots between Gates, goblin minions, and the crimson mantle?

[Kish]

One cleric of high enough power, and one wizard of high enough power.

Indeed, Shojo was explicitly unable to have anyone teleport the Order with his single teleporting wizard dead, and the cleric who tried to Resurrect Shojo told Redcloak "I'm the High Priest of the Twelve Gods."

Whatever is motivating Lacuna to expand both of them to arbitrarily high numbers of high-level spellcasters eager to cast Commune for Miko and teleport everyone in the Sapphire Guard wherever they want to go, it's certainly not logic.

[Lacuna Caster]

Indeed, Shojo was explicitly unable to have anyone teleport the Order with his single teleporting wizard dead, and the cleric who tried to Resurrect Shojo told Redcloak "I'm the High Priest of the Twelve Gods."

What is the argument here, exactly? You've acknowledged that these casters have a documented affiliation with either Shojo or the Guard, so it's perfectly reasonable to ask why Miko couldn't avail of their services on a mission of potentially earth-shattering importance. (Especially when she's apparently willing to ally with total strangers for the purpose.)

I could understand the extra-diegetic argument that it was a gag-a-day comedy webcomic and not really concerned with rigorous consistency, but why then the effort to assert that consistency must retroactively exist?

[Peelee]

But Eugene isn't being self-serving here at all. Self-service would imply the ruthless pursuit of his own interests, which would mean... sending the paladins themselves directly after Xykon while he's still vulnerable regenerating...

Julia, not the paladins.

[Lacuna Caster]

Julia, not the paladins.

No, I mean the paladins. I mean that, while disguised as a celestial being of pure law and good, he could have told the paladins out loud that Xykon the lich sorceror was actually responsible for murdering Dorukan and his followers, explained that the OOTS blowing up the keep was basically an industrial accident, and sent them all on their merry way to slay the BBEG.

[Aveline]

But Eugene isn't being self-serving here at all. Self-service would imply the ruthless pursuit of his own interests, which would mean... sending the paladins themselves directly after Xykon while he's still vulnerable regenerating... but failing that, certainly using teleport, diplomacy, weight of numbers and adequate sharing of intelligence to ensure that his son and his companions can be brought in with minimal fuss. There's no real downside to using magic transport, regardless of their objectives.

Similarly, arguments to the tune that Shojo was being overly-paranoid and cautious don't make any sense. The Order are near-total strangers of varying dependability that don't actually have any tracking skills, one of whom has a violent history with his top paladin. His decision to hire them is an enormous leap of faith and an enormous risk.

The Blood Oath of Vengeance is a magically-binding conflict of interest, and Eugene's involvement was a perversion of justice. He and Shojo had ample personal imperative to lie. And the thing about misleading someone, is that they are then misled.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Blood Oath of Vengeance is a magically-binding conflict of interest, and Eugene's involvement was a perversion of justice. He and Shojo had ample personal imperative to lie. And the thing about misleading someone, is that they are then misled.

But why would the blood oath even come up unless Eugene specifically decides to blab about it? (Even then, I imagine a wrathful angel saying "in my mortal life, I swore an oath of blood vengeance against the deathless abomination who slew Dorukan. Now I beg that YOU fulfil this oath" would be pretty motivating for the paladins. I can totally see Miko just squeeing about it.)

That's the damndest thing about this whole arrangement. Eugene would barely even have to lie if he wanted the Guard working to resolve his afterlife permit issues.