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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    He never stated that her running away was easy. He never stated that she could have just stayed in her homeland without being forced back into Moron's house.
    Not that. Hilgya. Was. Not. Raped. Ivan is not a rapist. The marriage was never consummated. That ivan is a man to whom no means no. And here you are, accusing her family of being sex traffickers. Again. After being repeatedly told that is explicitly not the case.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Not that. Hilgya. Was. Not. Raped. Ivan is not a rapist. The marriage was never consummated. That ivan is a man to whom no means no. And here you are, accusing her family of being sex traffickers. Again. After being repeatedly told that is explicitly not the case.
    Disregarding the fact that you're replying to an assertion I did not made in the quote, the fact that Ivan happened to be nice enough not to rape Hilgya does not mean the sex traffickers named Firehelms did not take pains to make her available for him to do just that.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-02 at 10:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That ivan is a man to whom no means no.
    This is extrapolation on your part. He might be uninterested in initiating sex, or impotent.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    The. Author. Says. The. Crossbow. Is. Real.
    How about you read the whole post. I stipulate real crossbow.
    As for the political alliances, it doesn't matter.
    Actually, it does if you are going to treat this comic book event as equivalent to real life. Rich goes to some pains to paint the dwarven culture as being different from human culture ... so the context of why those two clans paired up those two dwarves, even though one was not at all keen on the union, matters.

    It's not been on screen, so we can only guess. Your assertion that you have some insight on the "truth" of the matter is still unproven, and unsupported. But that does not stop you from asserting as true that which we can only guess at.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    This is extrapolation on your part. He might be uninterested in initiating sex, or impotent.
    It was certainly the intent of the Giant's quote on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Actually...



    I can't believe I have to be specific about this, but no, their marriage was never consummated and he probably was completely unaware that she was forced into it (because he is not very smart or perceptive, obviously). And one could have extrapolated that fact if one thought for one moment about what the obvious intended joke of the scene was, which was to contrast Ivan's pleasant personality with Hilgya's exaggerated and inaccurate description.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=895

    and

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=437



    No. Not everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible. And not everyone agrees that blamng the victim is wrong either. That's the entire point: Keltest, among others, does not, and there are links just above to that effect.
    Firstly, that's one hell of a Strawman. Secondly, so what? How does the options of others effect what you consider the moral choice here? Spite is a poor motivating factor. You're Chaotic, aren't you? Why do you give a single **** what anyone, especially your ideological opponents, thinks. What do YOU think would be the moral option, not "what would be best to piss off Keltest"?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It was certainly the intent of the Giant's quote on the matter.
    If you throw someone into a vat of snakes and the snakes happen to, without you checking, knowing, or caring, be dead, you are still an attempted murdeerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Firstly, that's one hell of a Strawman. Secondly, so what? How does the options of others effect what you consider the moral choice here? Spite is a poor motivating factor. You're Chaotic, aren't you? Why do you give a single **** what anyone, especially your ideological opponents, thinks. What do YOU think would be the moral option, not "what would be best to piss off Keltest"?
    It's simple: I don't want to have to argue against forced marriage.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-02 at 10:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It was certainly the intent of the Giant's quote on the matter.
    No, it is your interpretation. You are not a mind reader. What is clear from the quote is that "the marriage was not consummated," not the reasons why it was not.

    Having a "pleasant personality" does not mean appreciating that "no means no." Rapists can look like anything. Conversely, non-rapists don't have to appreciate that "no means no." They just have to have, in fact, not raped anyone.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-05-02 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    No, it is your interpretation. You are not a mind reader. What is clear from the quote is that "the marriage was not consummated," not the reasons why it was not.

    Having a "pleasant personality" does not mean appreciating that "no means no." Rapists can look like anything. Conversely, non-rapists don't have to appreciate that "no means no." They just have to have, in fact, not raped anyone.
    I would hope pleasantness would not include the capacity to commit rape, but that hinges on your definition of "plesent personality".

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    I guess that's one benefit to the whole "die with honor" thing. When someone calls you up in the middle of the night and says they have a life-threatening high-stakes battle they could really use help with, there's hardly any hesitation.

    Of course, when the person calling you up in question is Sigrun, I imagine it'd be all hands on deck anyway. Awesome mom with the life lessons as usual.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    No, it is your interpretation. You are not a mind reader. What is clear from the quote is that "the marriage was not consummated," not the reasons why it was not.

    Having a "pleasant personality" does not mean appreciating that "no means no." Rapists can look like anything. Conversely, non-rapists don't have to appreciate that "no means no."
    He literally says its the intended extrapolation that they didn't have sex, and that Ivan was a genuinely nice guy who cared about what his wife wanted. He even uses the word extrapolation.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would hope pleasantness would not include the capacity to commit rape, but that hinges on your definition of "plesent personality".
    My definition of "pleasant personality" is capacious enough to include smilers with knives under their cloaks.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If you throw someone into a vat of snakes and the snakes happen to, without you checking, knowing, or caring, be dead, you are still an attempted murdeerer.



    It's simple: I don't want to have to argue against forced marriage.
    THEN LEAVE. If this is stressing you out so much, then just leave. No one is forcing you to argue about Hilgyia. Heck, as far as I can tell, most of this forum's Hilgyia-related conversation comes in the form of people arguing with you.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    He literally says its the intended extrapolation that they didn't have sex, and that Ivan was a genuinely nice guy who cared about what his wife wanted. He even uses the word extrapolation.
    And now you know how it feels like.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    He literally says its the intended extrapolation that they didn't have sex, and that Ivan was a genuinely nice guy
    I'm with you so far.

    who cared about what his wife wanted.
    But not to this point. That's not in the quote, and it's not evident from Ivan's behavior. He cared about what he projected, believed, his wife might want, probably based on his image of women generally. He demonstrably did not listen to what she actually wanted.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm with you so far.


    But not to this point. That's not in the quote, and it's not evident from Ivan's behavior. He cared about what he projected, believed, his wife might want, probably based on his image of women generally. He demonstrably did not listen to what she actually wanted.
    I'm not sure he COULD have listened. Arranged marriages generally don't allow divorce. Granted, he could just allow her to leave...Which he did.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I'm with you so far.


    But not to this point. That's not in the quote, and it's not evident from Ivan's behavior. He cared about what he projected, believed, his wife might want, probably based on his image of women generally. He demonstrably did not listen to what she actually wanted.
    I get that unfounded cynicism is kind of your thing, but the joke stops working if Ivan is actually capable of hurting Hilgya, even accidentally. This is one of those times when the thing that looks, acts and quacks like a duck is a duck.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    THEN LEAVE. If this is stressing you out so much, then just leave. No one is forcing you to argue about Hilgyia. Heck, as far as I can tell, most of this forum's Hilgyia-related conversation comes in the form of people arguing with you.
    No. I have a moral duty not to let the claim that forcing someone into marriage isn't a grave and serious moral wrong - or that it might be theoretically motivated by something the victim did to "deserve or motivate it" - go unchallenged.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-02 at 11:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    No. I have a moral duty not to let the claim that forcing someone into marriage isn't a grave and serious moral wrong - or that it might be theoretically motivated by something the victim did to "earn it" - go unchallenged.
    Nothing you have said or done in this argument has been moral. Im not sure you have a working understanding of how morality works. To say nothing of the fact that you have still been advocating for this well before I got involved.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-05-02 at 11:04 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I'm not sure he COULD have listened.
    He certainly could have listened. Whether he could have acted on what he listened to is another matter. But in fact he did not. He continued "badgering Hilgya with endless questions" even after she made it clear she just wanted to be left alone. That doesn't necessarily mean divorce - the marriage might have been tolerable if there was a constructive separation (i.e., living in the same household with little or no communication).

    Granted, he could just allow her to leave...Which he did.
    That's stretching the meaning of "allow" to its breaking point. He wasn't aware that she left.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Arranged marriages generally don't allow divorce.
    Point of order: that is not true in general (Roman marriages were generally arranged and dissolved as politics dictated) and most certainly not true in Dwarven OotS, where Hilgya did obtain a divorce.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    It's simple: I don't want to have to argue against forced marriage.
    And since no-one but the strawmen you create is arguing in favour of forced marriage, why do you keep creating said strawmen?

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    No. I have a moral duty not to let the claim that forcing someone into marriage isn't a grave and serious moral wrong - or that it might be theoretically motivated by something the victim did to "earn it" - go unchallenged.
    Ah, so you do have morals beyond Chaos. But answer me this: I agree with you on both counts. However, I still find your potion untenable because it is, to myself, a wildly disproportionate response. Would you label that as something you have a moral duty to argue aganist?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Nothing you have said or done in this argument has been moral. Im not sure you have a working understanding of how morality works.
    It is immoral to force someone into a marriage. Ergo, the Firehelms, except for Hilgya and Kudzu, must all die dishonorably and spend eternity under Hel's care.

    She's Chaotic Good, really, to only bankrupt them, when you think of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Ah, so you do have morals beyond Chaos. But answer me this: I agree with you on both counts. However, I still find your potion untenable because it is, to myself, a wildly disproportionate response. Would you label that as something you have a moral duty to argue aganist?
    There's a difference between arguing that "oh, she likely hit innocents" and arguing that "oh, the forced marriage wasn't a big deal/may have been deserved". It's why I don't argue for the genocide of the clan with you, just for the fairness of bankrupting the Firehelms.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-02 at 11:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I get that unfounded cynicism is kind of your thing, but the joke stops working if Ivan is actually capable of hurting Hilgya, even accidentally. This is one of those times when the thing that looks, acts and quacks like a duck is a duck.
    I don't find the joke particularly funny, and am not interested in going out of my way to make excuses to save it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    It is immoral to force someone into a marriage. Ergo, the Firehelms, except for Hilgya and Kudzu, must all die dishonorably and spend eternity under Hel's care.

    She's Chaotic Good, really, to only bankrupt them, when you think of it.
    You know, if your response to being argued aganist is to become more extreme...That has a certain counter intuitiveness to it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    It is immoral to force someone into a marriage. Ergo, the Firehelms, except for Hilgya and Kudzu, must all die dishonorably and spend eternity under Hel's care.
    Strange. Only an absolute psychopath would think that is a foregone conclusion.

    But you keep insisting you ain't one, so why would you think that is the correct conclusion?

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    She's Chaotic Good, really, to only bankrupt them, when you think of it.
    If familicide by itself can't determine a character's alignment, which it demonstrably can't, then no individual act can determine a character's alignment. If you want to claim that Hilgya's forbearance is a Good act, make the case (for the record, I don't buy it - it is neither a personal sacrifice on her part nor done of the sake of the dignity of sentient beings), but it alone says nothing about her alignment as a whole.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-05-02 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Strange. Only an absolute psychopath would think that is a foregone conclusion.

    But you keep insisting you ain't one, so why would you think that is the correct conclusion?

    Grey Wolf
    Because you need to read more on psychopathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    You know, if your response to being argued aganist is to become more extreme...That has a certain counter intuitiveness to it.
    Not quite.

    You argued with me that it was wrong to bankrupt the clan. And I did not become more extreme.

    I did, however, become more extreme the moment Keltest chose to argue that what they did to Hilgya was just forcing her through a ceremony.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-02 at 11:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Strange. Only an absolute psychopath would think that is a foregone conclusion.

    But you keep insisting you ain't one, so why would you think that is the correct conclusion?

    Grey Wolf
    TW's only arguing to piss off his opponents at this point, I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Because you need to read more on psychopathy.
    Not actually an answer. The point he's making is that that if both a wildly disproportionate solution and one that would, itself, be evil. Pay Evil Unto Evil is not actually Good, in D&D or anywhere else.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-05-02 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I don't find the joke particularly funny, and am not interested in going out of my way to make excuses to save it.
    That's fair, but the joke exists, and it informs the context of the scene. I don't expect or need you to laugh at it, but it is there.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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