Sonic the Hedgehog, the Movie

[Magic_Hat]

The movie operates by comedic rules, at least at some level: if there's a joke to be had with a character under-performing in a low-stakes situation, then they'll do the joke.

This movie is a comedy? I mean intentional comedy.

[Millstone85]

Best fan fix I have seen so far.

[Aotrs Commander]

One wonders if there wasn't some backroom politics going on here. I.e. some [person who is a genetilia of some stripe, pick either] at the top decided he thought Sonic should look this way, despite everyone in the staff saying it looked crap, no really, it looked really crap and people who hate it, so they went as far as doing what he said up to the trailer (while maybe quietly doing stuff on the side, who knows) and then when the trailer comes out, they all just metaphorically turn and stare at him and he has to back off. The overbearing part certainly would be surprising, at any rate.

It might be a desparation measure, perhaps the moive staff have had their matchig orders from Sega, who might be greatly displeased at the near-universal reaction to the trailer.

It is certainly a... brave move, unless Mando is right (and/or they have basically post-poned that one bit if the movie to be re-done in this exact instance), as one imagines it could be horrensously expensive to if they have to fix most of the movie.

(Cue months of crunch on the level that most computer games comapnies are getting lambasted for...? That's a worrying thought. I'm really not bothered enough about Sonic on any level to want people to be subjected to that sort of body-destroying crap.)

[GloatingSwine]

Sonic X was the worst of the TV shows

Sonic X was quite variable in quality. Even before 4Kids mangled it in the dub (to be fair, there were some Animaniacs-grade smut that they'd never have gone for).

The first block of episodes was okay, as a fairly standard thing-of-the-week anime, coasting along on offbeat references and fourth wall breaks (some of which didn't survive the dubbing process because 4Kids ruthlessly erased all on-screen text even if it was in English). Appreciation of it depends on whether you like the idea of a show where the bad guy's thing of the week encompasses Mazinger Z, Thunderbird 2, and ships that combine into the Starship Enterprise then transform into a giant robot, .

Then they just adapted Sonic Advance 1 and 2 and those episodes were ****. Spent some time spinning their wheels with more gag-focused episodes that weren't very good, and stopped.

Until then it got picked back up for a last block of episodes because it was popular in France, and it went off the deep end and basically made Space Battleship Yamato with Sonic characters, with evil trees that kidnap humans to feed to their young (including scenes of living people screaming as roots grow under their skin) and Tails having to shoot his girlfriend dead at the end of the series.

God knows what 4Kids made of any of that.

[Devonix]

Best fan fix I have seen so far.

It's nice looking but also impossible. There are too many scenes of him manipulating things with his hands. Just look at the scene with him in the bag. Now imagine those giant gloves in the scene. Hell imagine that body fitting in the bag. The whole scene would need to be reshot including calling back all of the actors.

[LaZodiac]

Sonic X was quite variable in quality. Even before 4Kids mangled it in the dub (to be fair, there were some Animaniacs-grade smut that they'd never have gone for).

The first block of episodes was okay, as a fairly standard thing-of-the-week anime, coasting along on offbeat references and fourth wall breaks (some of which didn't survive the dubbing process because 4Kids ruthlessly erased all on-screen text even if it was in English). Appreciation of it depends on whether you like the idea of a show where the bad guy's thing of the week encompasses Mazinger Z, Thunderbird 2, and ships that combine into the Starship Enterprise then transform into a giant robot, .

Then they just adapted Sonic Advance 1 and 2 and those episodes were ****. Spent some time spinning their wheels with more gag-focused episodes that weren't very good, and stopped.

Until then it got picked back up for a last block of episodes because it was popular in France, and it went off the deep end and basically made Space Battleship Yamato with Sonic characters, with evil trees that kidnap humans to feed to their young (including scenes of living people screaming as roots grow under their skin) and Tails having to shoot his girlfriend dead at the end of the series.

God knows what 4Kids made of any of that.

If I recall they slice out like literally 70% of that entire season, and they do their absolute damndest to make Tails not show any sort of negative emotion in the scene where he very obviously has to murder his flower wife to save the universe.

[Peelee]

Basically this is nearly perfect advertising.

The Public: I mean, the Sonic movie looks like it'll have decebt effects, and Jim Carrey being a silly villain hits all the right nostalgia buttons, but Sonic looks like complete ass.

Studio: Live Action Sonic will not look like complete ass anymore.

The Public: huh. Well I guess it won't be too bad, then.

Counterpoint: I would argue that perfect advertising would be getting it right the first time. Also...

Studio: "Here's visuals!"
People: "They stink!"
Studio: "Good, they'll be different!"

That's a very odd strategy, if intentional. We don't even know what the redesign will look like, and I see no reason to be optimistic after their first attempt.

[Strigon]

Until then it got picked back up for a last block of episodes because it was popular in France, and it went off the deep end and basically made Space Battleship Yamato with Sonic characters, with evil trees that kidnap humans to feed to their young (including scenes of living people screaming as roots grow under their skin) and Tails having to shoot his girlfriend dead at the end of the series.

God knows what 4Kids made of any of that.

... Wow, they never had anything like that when I watched cartoons as a boy.

In other news, I'm kinda disappointed that they're changing the way Sonic looks. Having an entire movie full of... that... might have been good for a laugh or two, but now I'm concerned it'll be too generic and bleh.
I mean, if they can somehow salvage it into a good movie, then I'll be happy, but are any of us really expecting that?

[Bohandas]

Best fan fix I have seen so far.

Best version I've seen is this one

Spoiler

Show

It's the only one I've seen yet, anywhere, ever, that actually takes into account the fact that the spikes on his back are a stylized representation of quills designed to compensate for the lack of detail in 16 bit systems

Counterpoint: I would argue that perfect advertising would be getting it right the first time. Also...

Studio: "Here's visuals!"
People: "They stink!"
Studio: "Good, they'll be different!"

That's a very odd strategy, if intentional.

Not entirely unprecedented though. IIRC when the Aqua Teen Hunger Force movie came out, there was a teaser episode of the show that ended with the reveal of an intentionally poorly rendered and off-model CGI scene

[GloatingSwine]

... Wow, they never had anything like that when I watched cartoons as a boy.

See we had Animals of Farthing Wood.

Major named characters are somewhat more likely to survive a season of Game of Thrones than they were in that.

[Reddish Mage]

It's nice looking but also impossible. There are too many scenes of him manipulating things with his hands. Just look at the scene with him in the bag. Now imagine those giant gloves in the scene. Hell imagine that body fitting in the bag. The whole scene would need to be reshot including calling back all of the actors.

I was going to say something like that. On the other hand they can B.S a lot of it (so what if he doesn’t fit, just show him going in and he’ll be the wrong shape inside the bag).

This may just end up a disaster and a warning of the problem of not testing your concepts with the fans from the very beginning. A focus group would have caught the issue.

A human-like creature is the sort of thing CGI artists would suggest because it is easier to render and make movements look real (I bet their design school teachers are proud). It’s just not something that was ever going to look good to fans.

[Aotrs Commander]

See we had Animals of Farthing Wood.

Major named characters are somewhat more likely to survive a season of Game of Thrones than they were in that.

Yeah, that series was great.

[Mando Knight]

This movie is a comedy? I mean intentional comedy.

Action-comedy, yes. Think more "Spy Kids" and less "Avengers".

[Peelee]

Not entirely unprecedented though. IIRC when the Aqua Teen Hunger Force movie came out, there was a teaser episode of the show that ended with the reveal of an intentionally poorly rendered and off-model CGI scene

That would be totally in keeping with Aqua Teen Hunger Force's style of humor, though.

[Zevox]

Best fan fix I have seen so far.

Spoiler: Inserted for image size.

Show

While that's better in the sense that he looks like the actual character in the games, he's still inexplicably fuzzy, and would no doubt still look just weird set against all of the rest of the film being live-action.

Best version I've seen is this one

Spoiler

Show

It's the only one I've seen yet, anywhere, ever, that actually takes into account the fact that the spikes on his back are a stylized representation of quills designed to compensate for the lack of detail in 16 bit systems

Bleh. I cannot agree that that one is much of an improvement, personally. Still very weird looking and kind of disturbing.

[Zmeoaice]

Yeah if you're just gonna use Sonic's original design, then you might as well make the film (preferrably 2d) animated.

IMO this is the best one. The one in the film probably used mo-cap which caused the mouth to be human-like despite that sonic has a snout. It also gives him cute pointy teeth like a hedgehog.

[Zevox]

Yeah if you're just gonna use Sonic's original design, then you might as well make the film (preferrably 2d) animated.

Agreed. But for some unknown reason they think that a live action Sonic film isn't a terrible idea, so here we are.

IMO this is the best one. The one in the film probably used mo-cap which caused the mouth to be human-like despite that sonic has a snout. It also gives him cute pointy teeth like a hedgehog.

That image link is not working, at least for me.

[Zmeoaice]

Agreed. But for some unknown reason they think that a live action Sonic film isn't a terrible idea, so here we are.


That image link is not working, at least for me.

edited and fix'd it

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah if you're just gonna use Sonic's original design, then you might as well make the film (preferrably 2d) animated.

You say that, but Detective Pikachu is a thing which exists and it turns out that faithfully recreated on-model Pokemon work if you put the effort in.

And Sonic is no different.

[Zevox]

edited and fix'd it

Uh... okay. I honestly don't see how that one is any better than the version the movie currently has, personally, but okay.

[Kitten Champion]

I'd just like him not to look like a furry-pajamas Dr. Suess design. The proportions weird me out the most. Most of that's probably on the mo-cap, which leads me to believe it can't be corrected or at least not nearly as easily as one might hope.

A point I saw raised elsewhere, and he's been around long enough that I didn't even think about it, but we have Rocket Raccoon. A main cast member of several very successful live-action Hollywood movies that is - at the end of the day - a somewhat anthropomorphized small woodland creature. One who has had numerous action, comedic, and even some surprisingly emotionally touching dramatic scenes.



There are of course design challenges unique to Sonic... but still, a "realistic" approach has been done well if they had to go down that route. Though I do prefer the fully animated CG style with a video game-esque Sonic.

[LaZodiac]

I'd just like him not to look like a furry-pajamas Dr. Suess design. The proportions weird me out the most. Most of that's probably on the mo-cap, which leads me to believe it can't be corrected or at least not nearly as easily as one might hope.

A point I saw raised elsewhere, and he's been around long enough that I didn't even think about it, but we have Rocket Raccoon. A main cast member of several very successful live-action Hollywood movies that is - at the end of the day - a somewhat anthropomorphized small woodland creature. One who has had numerous action, comedic, and even some surprisingly emotionally touching dramatic scenes.



There are of course design challenges unique to Sonic... but still, a "realistic" approach has been done well if they had to go down that route. Though I do prefer the fully animated CG style with a video game-esque Sonic.

And from like ten years ago, Aslan from The Lion/Witch/Wardrobe, which is so ****ing good looking.

[Zmeoaice]

You say that, but Detective Pikachu is a thing which exists and it turns out that faithfully recreated on-model Pokemon work if you put the effort in.

And Sonic is no different.

Except Sonic is considerably more anthropomorphic and cartoony than most Pokemon. For Pokemon you can just add texture to and it will look great because they don't have realistic lip movements or human like legs. There are some exceptions like Mr. Mime who looks super creepy, but he isn't like the main character.

So they're very different.

[Reddish Mage]

I'd just like him not to look like a furry-pajamas Dr. Suess design. The proportions weird me out the most. Most of that's probably on the mo-cap, which leads me to believe it can't be corrected or at least not nearly as easily as one might hope.

I'm not sure why the fact of being mo-cap particularly makes things difficult. It's really an animation short cut (in addition to a guide for realism), just not magic....the fact is, apparently they need magic at this point...that or I propose drastically lower standards from what we saw in the trailer. You know tolerance for off-model transitions and stuff.

A point I saw raised elsewhere, and he's been around long enough that I didn't even think about it, but we have Rocket Raccoon. A main cast member of several very successful live-action Hollywood movies that is - at the end of the day - a somewhat anthropomorphized small woodland creature. One who has had numerous action, comedic, and even some surprisingly emotionally touching dramatic scenes.

There are of course design challenges unique to Sonic... but still, a "realistic" approach has been done well if they had to go down that route. Though I do prefer the fully animated CG style with a video game-esque Sonic.

I don't think this will be a good template for Sonic:



Even if you are going to give that thing human like legs and arms and have it stand upright...in fact especially if you are going to do that. Sonic just doesn't look like a hedgehog. He's a big headed anthropomorphic creature with a snout and weird spiky hair....not that thing. He could be depicted as having a hairy fur coat though if that's what you're getting at.

[Zevox]

I'd just like him not to look like a furry-pajamas Dr. Suess design. The proportions weird me out the most. Most of that's probably on the mo-cap, which leads me to believe it can't be corrected or at least not nearly as easily as one might hope.

A point I saw raised elsewhere, and he's been around long enough that I didn't even think about it, but we have Rocket Raccoon. A main cast member of several very successful live-action Hollywood movies that is - at the end of the day - a somewhat anthropomorphized small woodland creature. One who has had numerous action, comedic, and even some surprisingly emotionally touching dramatic scenes.



There are of course design challenges unique to Sonic... but still, a "realistic" approach has been done well if they had to go down that route. Though I do prefer the fully animated CG style with a video game-esque Sonic.

And from like ten years ago, Aslan from The Lion/Witch/Wardrobe, which is so ****ing good looking.

There's a rather huge difference between those and Sonic though. Aslan is just a straight-up Lion, so there's nothing complicated about getting him right. And Rocket Raccoon is just a raccoon who walks upright.

Sonic, meanwhile, is nominally a hedgehog, but as Reddish pointed out, doesn't actually look like a real hedgehog at all. He doesn't look like anything real, which makes making him look good in a live-action film a much bigger challenge than it is for any random anthropomorphic animal.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm not sure why the fact of being mo-cap particularly makes things difficult. It's really an animation short cut (in addition to a guide for realism), just not magic....the fact is, apparently they need magic at this point...that or I propose drastically lower standards from what we saw in the trailer. You know tolerance for off-model transitions and stuff.

Because they acquired the data they brought into their Sonic character based on a human actor's facial and body movements and that's what the human actors in the scene were responding to and how it was shot. Thus changing it harms it in two ways, you've undermined the performance of the Sonic actor and you've also broken fundamentally how your movie was shot in terms of every character interaction between Sonic and every other actor, as suddenly your actors aren't looking at the right places or responding the right ways.

Especially if you alter Sonic's height or eye-line.

Imagine, after finally editing and post-production work was complete on Lord of the Rings, they made Gollum a couple inches shorter and slightly changed the shape of his eyes. It would be painful to watch, and it would be in the fairly unique position of ruining Serkis' whole work just by changing some math on a computer.

This is why they're supposed to have done this fundamental ground-work well, well beforehand. They can't just bring in Christopher Plummer to replace Sonic, and swapping some numbers won't help the most fundamental issue with this -- with the character model being what it is it brings it into the uncanny valley territory simulating human expressions and movements.

I don't think this will be a good template for Sonic:



Even if you are going to give that thing human like legs and arms and have it stand upright...in fact especially if you are going to do that. Sonic just doesn't look like a hedgehog. He's a big headed anthropomorphic creature with a snout and weird spiky hair....not that thing. He could be depicted as having a hairy fur coat though if that's what you're getting at.

Sure it would. You don't need to design in a one-to-one fashion, you can bring in elements of the anatomy into your character. That's if you want to edge towards realism, as opposed to accuracy with the cartoon.

Preferably not the genitals though.

[Lord Raziere]

Sure it would. You don't need to design in a one-to-one fashion, you can bring in elements of the anatomy into your character. That's if you want to edge towards realism, as opposed to accuracy with the cartoon.

In my personal opinion things like Who Framed Roger Rabbit or Looney Tunes Back in Action does this sort of thing best in just normally animating the character without trying to make them look real or anything and just letting them clash with the rest of the world. after all, they're never going to make them look right in the real world, so the only choice is to embrace their normal look not being apart of it and use it creatively, like those films did.

[Magic_Hat]

Who is the intended target demographic for this movie? Is it people who hate the Sonic franchise but simultaneously love mocking it for its shortcomings?

[Delicious Taffy]

Who is the intended target demographic for this movie?

People with money.

[Millstone85]

It's nice looking but also impossible. There are too many scenes of him manipulating things with his hands. Just look at the scene with him in the bag. Now imagine those giant gloves in the scene. Hell imagine that body fitting in the bag. The whole scene would need to be reshot including calling back all of the actors.

I was going to say something like that. On the other hand they can B.S a lot of it (so what if he doesn’t fit, just show him going in and he’ll be the wrong shape inside the bag).

This may just end up a disaster and a warning of the problem of not testing your concepts with the fans from the very beginning. A focus group would have caught the issue.

B.S-ing it would clearly be the lesser evil.

While that's better in the sense that he looks like the actual character in the games, he's still inexplicably fuzzy, and would no doubt still look just weird set against all of the rest of the film being live-action.

I think realistic textures over a cartoonish design is a good formula. I also approve of the use of beige fur instead of skin.

Best version I've seen is this one

Spoiler

Show

It's the only one I've seen yet, anywhere, ever, that actually takes into account the fact that the spikes on his back are a stylized representation of quills designed to compensate for the lack of detail in 16 bit systems

Bleh. I cannot agree that that one is much of an improvement, personally. Still very weird looking and kind of disturbing.

It is terrible, except indeed for the way it interprets each spike as a group of quills.