About Darkmantles..

[daggaz]

I ran a session the other day with some darkmantles in it, who very nearly TPK'd my 3rd lvl party, and the whole thing left me with some serious questions as to their mechanics.

In our case, the party enters a cave with a 20 foot ceiling. They don't spot the sneaky darkmantles, so there is a surprise round. I was nice here and didn't have them use their darkness ability off the bat, because I knew it would be more or less instant kill for this particular party. (only one darkvision character, the rest were humans and they had one torch..)

So the darkmantle swoops down, and attacks the guy with the torch, I figured I would give him a chance to not have it put out. Luckily the darkmantle misses, so no lights out.

The problem then, tho... is what to do next? The darkmantle has a 20 foot movement, did it use it to get the drop on the PC? Or would you say dropping from the ceiling is a free action (like dropping prone?). If it's movement is used up, and it ends its turn on the square just above the PC, threatening them from above, does it just hover there in midair on the PC's turn, waiting for its turn to head back up? Feel free to adjust the ceiling height so its movement does indeed end here, if the dropping is not a free action. Finally, it states in the MM that if they miss the initial attack, darkmantles will fly back up to the ceiling to try again. Problem is, they have no listed fly speed. Just an oversight, or what?

At any rate, I pretty much just handwaved my way through it, using common sense and rule 0, and the players managed to survive and nobody complained... but still, it was annoying.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm, I THINK it was stated that dropping down is free. And really, if a darkmantle or two TPK the players, they've been gimping themselves. I've killed darmantles at close quarters with a level 1 BARD. And no, I didn't fascinate, just attack.

[daggaz]

They have like 6 hps, sure... but its the blinding factor that can utterly destroy the wrong low level party. What made matters worse for my party was that the noise and commotion attracted the resident troglodytes. Being natural prey to them, they feared the darkmantles and wouldn't enter the room, but that didn't stop them from lobbing javelins in at the PC's as well. And had the PC's lucked out on the 50% miss chance and actually killed the darkmantles, the darkness they cast is as a 5th lvl sorcerer, so it will last an hour or so, which means the trogs could close in and finish the job without too much of a hitch.

My players were lucky..

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm. This means your PC's ain't too tacticky, right? The kind of guys that play a straight healer cleric, unscouty rogue, blaster wiz and pure fighter, aight? I mean, a fighter will probably be able to stand there tking javelins using his AC only.

[Tellah]

What do you mean by "blinding factor"? They just cast darkness, which only grants 20% concealment in a globe. Nobody's blinded. They do have blindsight, though, so it's good to put them somewhere dark.

[daggaz]

What do you mean by "blinding factor"? They just cast darkness, which only grants 20% concealment in a globe. Nobody's blinded. They do have blindsight, though, so it's good to put them somewhere dark.

From the SRD:

"Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

... other stuff...

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level. "

If it can dispell a light spell, and if torches can't brighten the area, I just put 2 and 2 together and say it effectively turns the torch off (tho it still burns). So yeah, players who dont have darkvision are effectively blinded, if the beasties live in a dark cave, as they usually do.

At any rate, my question pertained more to how to maneuvre darkmantles mechanically, than how the 21 ac dwarf cleric was going to survive on his own in a very hostile cave with no spells after his friends were cut down in the (for them) darkness, despite his best efforts to both kill the darkmantles and hold off the group of troglodytes who were tossing spears at the low hp wizard and druid, who happened to be holding the only, albeit ineffectual, torch.

[Azerian Kelimon]

How? have them drop in sequence this way: one in front of party, one in back, one further in back who launches darkness, and attack away. Easy enough, you should create a challenging battle.

[Quietus]

Well, for one, the torch going out is a houserule. In this case, Darkness only affects magical darkness, and provides concealment. It doesn't say anything in the spell about putting out torches.

Second, ignoring the "darkness != lack of light" by RAW, darkvision doesn't help, say, troglodytes see through the darkness anyway. Pretty sure that's specifically mentioned in the spell... and if it isn't, it's mentioned in the Darkvision description.

Regarding a lack of fly speeds : I beg to differ.

[daggaz]

I just had them drop directly onto the heads of the players and attempt to start grappling if the attack succeeded, as per MM entry. My question was, if they MISS that first attack, how to handle things. I did rule that dropping was a free action, but its nice to see if thats how other people read it. Also, its wierd they dont have fly, because otherwise they will have to jump pretty damn high to get up to the ceiling of many a cave.. And what if the ceiling much higher, like 30+ feet? I suppose either they fly and only make it halfway up, or they dont fly and just dont use such areas as hunting grounds.

[daggaz]

Well, for one, the torch going out is a houserule. In this case, Darkness only affects magical darkness, and provides concealment. It doesn't say anything in the spell about putting out torches.

Second, ignoring the "darkness != lack of light" by RAW, darkvision doesn't help, say, troglodytes see through the darkness anyway. Pretty sure that's specifically mentioned in the spell... and if it isn't, it's mentioned in the Darkvision description.

Regarding a lack of fly speeds : I beg to differ.

The trogs and the dwarf, who both have darkvision, can see but with a 20% miss chance as the darkness still provides concealment. The torch is suppressed tho, so without natural daylight or a more powerful light spell, the humans are plunged into the natural lighting conditions of the cave, and are fully blinded, for 50% miss chance and half movement and major problems making ranged attacks.

Oops, heh, guess I missed the fly speed thing. figures.

[Kyeudo]

Everyone knows that Darkness actualy isn't dark. Its more like "lesser daylight." When cast into an area of actual darkness, it creates shadowy illumination, which actualy can be used to see by.

[Quietus]

The trogs and the dwarf, who both have darkvision, can see but with a 20% miss chance as the darkness still provides concealment. The torch is suppressed tho, so without natural daylight or a more powerful light spell, the humans are plunged into the natural lighting conditions of the cave, and are fully blinded, for 50% miss chance and half movement and major problems making ranged attacks.

Oops, heh, guess I missed the fly speed thing. figures.

Actually, amusingly enough...

his spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius

Shadowy illumination is still illumination... perhaps not spectacular illumination, but comparably it'd be like being out on a moonless night, with only the stars to provide you the ability to see. You'd still see the shapes of the trogs within the area of darkness, you just wouldn't see anything outside of that.

Of course, I've always houseruled Darkness to just give full, you know, DARKNESS...

[daggaz]

As far as I understood it, shadowy illumination is like the polar opposite of dim illumination, in that its not very strong, and instead of emmiting light, it is emmiting shadows. (so no, it wont lighten up a naturally dark area).

So in natural daylight, or in the effect of a stronger light spell, you get a shadowy effect that gives partial concealment and a 20% miss chance.

In natural darkness, you get the same kind of shadowy effect, but it is only visible to creatures with darkvision. A human would be fully blinded either way, and get 50% miss chance. A drow would go from zero miss chance to 20% miss chance.

Now, if the light source is lower level than the darkness spell, it is suppressed, canceled, dispelled, etc... as per the spell description. So a mundane torch or lamp will seem to go out (tho it will still burn). A powerful natural light source, such as daylight or a lake of lava or a fiery forge for example, would still illuminate the area, albeit with the shadowy effect now.

Thats the way I understood things.

[bosssmiley]

I just had them drop directly onto the heads of the players and attempt to start grappling if the attack succeeded, as per MM entry. My question was, if they MISS that first attack, how to handle things.

Darkmantles! I love darkmantles. They're like pack-hunting Lovecraftian wizard hats! And there's nothing in D&D funnier than hearing the Barbarian say "I'll rage and attack the one grappling the wizard's head...". It can only ever end badly.

Were I a darkmantle that missed my designated target for headmongling ("Man! I'm never going to hear the end of this at the next Subterranean Ambush Predator's Club meeting."), I would:

a) Make like the cavesquid I am: spew darkness, scuttle away and climb the wall so I could drop on their heads again in a round or two (or flee in search of less stroppy prey if needs be).
b) Spew darkness, grapple the human's leg, clamber up their body and mongle their face.

Oh, for the simple and happy life of a darkmantle! All problems can be solved by the simple expedient of spewing darkness, grappling and mongling someone's face. I envy their purity of purpose.

[SoD]

I beleive that if a Darkmantle were crawling up someones body, it should provoke AOOs. You know, entering their square and all, I'd constitute 'climbing up someones body when starting out in their square' as worthy of an AOO. But I do like the tactic! Maybe I should make a bunch of kobolds that do the same thing?

[Telonius]

I just had them drop directly onto the heads of the players and attempt to start grappling if the attack succeeded, as per MM entry. My question was, if they MISS that first attack, how to handle things. I did rule that dropping was a free action, but its nice to see if thats how other people read it. Also, its wierd they dont have fly, because otherwise they will have to jump pretty damn high to get up to the ceiling of many a cave.. And what if the ceiling much higher, like 30+ feet? I suppose either they fly and only make it halfway up, or they dont fly and just dont use such areas as hunting grounds.

The Darkmantle entry says they do have Poor flight.

Some rules that might be precedents:

Darkmantles:

A darkmantle attacks by dropping onto its prey and wrapping its tentacles around the opponent’s head. Once attached, it squeezes and tries to suffocate the foe. A darkmantle that misses its initial attack often flies up and tries to drop on the opponent again.

Regarding just what a Darkmantle might do when it attacks, from Fly:

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

However, Darkmantles do not have a claw or talon attack, just a slam attack.

From the Jump skill:

Jumping Down
If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.

Action
None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Now note that a Darkmantle's Fly speed is Poor. A Poor flight means that the maximum "Down Angle" of flight is 45 degrees. That means it can't just move straight down. So it has to either do a Dive attack (which it can't do, since it doesn't have a talon; though I could definitely see houseruling this otherwise) or do a Jump Down, which is part of a move action. I think that means that it does a Jump Down.

As far as what happens if it misses ... a couple ways you could adjudicate that.

1. The Darkmantle and the character are in the same square. The character stepped out of the way (as though it were a Bull Rush).
2. The character can take a 5 foot step (either of their choice or randomly).
3. The Darkmantle ends up in a random square adjacent to the character.
4. (Only makes sense if you treat it as a Dive Attack) The Darkmantle is in mid-flight, right above the character's head. The Darkmantle takes -2 to AC from Charging, and is within reach of the character. Next round it can fly normally.
Personally I'd go for Option 1.

[daggaz]

Thanks for the response to the original question, Telonius...

I think you are missing one action tho that is also defined by raw. Letting go of something is a free action (dropping a weapon etc..). The darkmantle can just 'let go' of the ceiling, and gravity will do the work. This is why I handwaved it to be a free action to drop down in the first place. Just wanted to hear other people's comments about this as well.

Thanks for the input.

[Mighty Fedora]

Darkmantles! I love darkmantles. They're like pack-hunting Lovecraftian wizard hats! And there's nothing in D&D funnier than hearing the Barbarian say "I'll rage and attack the one grappling the wizard's head...". It can only ever end badly.

Were I a darkmantle that missed my designated target for headmongling ("Man! I'm never going to hear the end of this at the next Subterranean Ambush Predator's Club meeting."), I would:

a) Make like the cavesquid I am: spew darkness, scuttle away and climb the wall so I could drop on their heads again in a round or two (or flee in search of less stroppy prey if needs be).
b) Spew darkness, grapple the human's leg, clamber up their body and mongle their face.

Oh, for the simple and happy life of a darkmantle! All problems can be solved by the simple expedient of spewing darkness, grappling and mongling someone's face. I envy their purity of purpose.

that was just about the funniest thing I've read all day. Thank you.

[Idea Man]

I had my 1st lvl barbarian taken out by a darkmantle. Max HP, Con bonus...then the darn thing sneaked me, crit-ed me, and maxed it's damage, all in the first round. I was at zero HP, and hadn't even rolled initiative yet! First encounter, too.

We don't let that guy run anymore. He never could hold back, or fudge rolls. Nice to play with, though. But I digress...