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Thread: 5 Stats For 5E

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    Default 5 Stats For 5E

    Step one: Remove Constitution. Let's be honest, everyone needs it, everyone uses it, but it's BORING. It's entirely passive-about the only ACTIVE use of Constitution I can think of is a drinking contest. Speaking of which, things like drinking contests, Concentration saves, Cone of Cold saves, etc., now fall under Strength. Strength can, if you like, be renamed something like "Body", but that's not needed.

    Make the following changes to races:

    Dwarves gain +1 Strength
    Hill Dwarves gain +2 Wisdom
    Mountain Dwarves gain an additional +1 to Strength and gain the ability "Solid As Stone"-once per short rest, as a bonus action, gain resistance to all damage until the end of your next turn.
    Stout Halflings gain +1 Strength
    Rock Gnomes gain +1 Strength
    Half-Orcs gain +1 to any stat besides Strength

    Make the following changes to classes:

    Barbarians gain Charisma saves
    Fighters gain Intelligence saves
    Sorcerers gain Strength saves

    Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).

    Point buy should also be dropped to probably 24 now.
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2017-07-28 at 11:21 PM.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Step one: Remove Constitution. Let's be honest, everyone needs it, everyone uses it, but it's BORING. It's entirely passive-about the only ACTIVE use of Constitution I can think of is a drinking contest. Speaking of which, things like drinking contests, Concentration saves, Cone of Cold saves, etc., now fall under Strength. Strength can, if you like, be renamed something like "Body", but that's not needed.

    Make the following changes to races:

    Dwarves gain +1 Strength
    Hill Dwarves gain +2 Wisdom
    Mountain Dwarves gain an additional +1 to Strength and gain the ability "Solid As Stone"-once per short rest, as a bonus action, gain resistance to all damage until the end of your next turn.
    Stout Halflings gain +1 Strength
    Rock Gnomes gain +1 Strength
    Half-Orcs gain +1 to any stat besides Strength

    Make the following changes to classes:

    Barbarians gain Charisma saves
    Fighters gain Intelligence saves
    Sorcerers gain Strength saves

    Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).

    Point buy should also be dropped to probably 24 now.
    If for whatever reason I stop using MPMB's auto-sheet for 5e, I'd like to test this rule out...eh, I have a Word 5e sheet somewhere, I think.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Quote Originally Posted by JBPuffin View Post
    If for whatever reason I stop using MPMB's auto-sheet for 5e, I'd like to test this rule out...eh, I have a Word 5e sheet somewhere, I think.
    Thank you! Let me know how it goes, and if anything is missing/could be improved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).
    Are proficiency bonuses applied retroactively (as in to prior levels) or not? If not, it makes generating higher level characters take a few more computations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Are proficiency bonuses applied retroactively (as in to prior levels) or not? If not, it makes generating higher level characters take a few more computations.
    It is applied retroactively. Now, this does give your higher level players more HP than expected, but that's a feature, not a bug.
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    One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

    I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

    I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.
    It does also bump everyone's HP, and while martials may benefit most...casters also have an extra 12/14 to place wherever they want.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

    I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.
    So it bumps up the weaker classes a bit. If anything that's another reason to make this change.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2017-07-30 at 10:55 PM.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.

    I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.
    It's a versatility upgrade, at least slightly, but it might be a slight power downgrade to heavy-melee types who'd normally have invested more heavily in Con. At least at lower levels. But a starting +2 is certainly viable.

    (For the record, I had a similar idea using [HD average-1] as your Con mod, so a Wizard's d6 would give them +2 HP, a Rogue's d8 a +3, and so on)

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    First off, the proficiency bonus to HP rather than CON is a great idea especially given the description of HP as not really being meat points but instead "don't die" points. I just worry that healthy characters will also be strong and by default half decent melee fighters and it also makes for odd roleplaying/in-world shenanigans when you use Strength rather than Constitution. I tend to be a DM that loves diseases, poisons, and other lovely Constitution based nastiness and like to give players the option to play healthy yet weak characters.

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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    I was expecting this to consolidate Intelligence and Charisma (two stats which really only have a few skills, arcane spellcasting, and one save per blue moon between them), but this is actually well-thought-out and interesting.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I was expecting this to consolidate Intelligence and Charisma (two stats which really only have a few skills, arcane spellcasting, and one save per blue moon between them), but this is actually well-thought-out and interesting.
    Thanks! Been a while since I touched this, but glad to see it's appreciated. :)
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    This fix needs a bit more work. First and foremost, you need to put some thought into saving throws. Let's ignore how a bunch of classes have Constitution as a save, we'll get back to that - let's focus on effects that call for Con saves right now. Some effects calling for Con saves will be purely a matter of physical fortitude, and your ability to throw them off is a physical thing; these would probably need to become Str saves; then, there's some that are more about your stubbornness and determination to remain unaffected, which would probably fall under Wis saves; finally, there are some AoE effects (that spray poison and the like) which could potentially fall under some kind of "reflex to keep any from getting in your mouth/eyes/whatever" kind of Dex save...that being said, all three categories are kind of a stretch, and Con is the best way to deal with all of them (which is why they're Con saves in the first place). Additionally, the vast majority of these are probably going to be split evenly between Str and Wis, essentially making Wis a primary save, Str/Dex secondary saves, and Int/Cha tertiary ones. This complicates the save proficiency system, where currently every class has a primary and a secondary, and that's ignoring how this particular system would require going through the spell lists and declaring which Con save spells are now Str, Dex, or Wis. Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others. And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.

    Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.

    Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?


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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Some effects calling for Con saves will be purely a matter of physical fortitude, and your ability to throw them off is a physical thing; these would probably need to become Str saves; then, there's some that are more about your stubbornness and determination to remain unaffected, which would probably fall under Wis saves; finally, there are some AoE effects (that spray poison and the like) which could potentially fall under some kind of "reflex to keep any from getting in your mouth/eyes/whatever" kind of Dex save...that being said, all three categories are kind of a stretch, and Con is the best way to deal with all of them (which is why they're Con saves in the first place).
    You must be looking at it differently, because I don't recognise a problem. High Str means you're larger and heavier. You have more mass, more blood, probably a stronger cardiovascular system, etc. I have no doubt that effects involving poison, disease, fatigue and cold can be covered by Str. The fact that some of these could fall under Dex doesn't change that. And I can't really think of any Con saves that I would describe as being mainly about stubbornness and determination. Can you give an example?

    Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others.
    This is indeed a problem given the established system, and it isn't easily fixed because neither Int nor Cha are appropriate to the monk and ranger. It's unfortunate, but I'd be willing to live with monks and rangers having two good saves for the sake of making this streamlined system work. Especially since they're two of the more underwhelming classes, and both are supposed to be resilient to magic.

    And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.
    In line with my earlier comment, I feel absolutely no issue with making concentration Str-based. It was always more about biting through a physical disruption than about keeping your mind clear, else it wouldn't have been Con-based in the first place.

    Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.
    Drinking alcohol easily falls under Str by my measure. The others are a bit of a stretch, but they're rare enough that I'm willing to sacrifice that tiny bit of realism for the sake of a more streamlined system.

    Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?
    Given that Con is a mandatory raise for all characters anyways, this doesn't really make them any more SAD than before. And characters with Con-based features tend to be Str-based anyways (barbarians and dragonborn are the only ones I can think of), so you're not taking this feature away from low-Str characters.

    Of course, whether you like this fix will always depend on personal preference, since it can be highly idiosyncratic which abstractions someone does or does not accept. But I've run other systems that work just like this, filing rolls that would be Con-based in D&D under Strength (or the equivalent stat). I've never seen someone question it, even people who had played D&D previously. So I think there's nothing wrong with applying the same thing here.

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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Also, I did mention possibly renaming "Strength" to simply "Body"-while it certainly doesn't map 1-to-1 to reality, it makes sense that someone who is stronger is tougher.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    For what it's worth...putting aside how strength and toughness are often correlated IRL, I've seen very few characters with a high Strength and an average or worse Constitution, and only a few more with high Constitution and average Strength. These patterns are even stronger in the source fiction (ie, the standard fantasy works which D&D has been stealing from and been robbed by for decades).
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Also, I did mention possibly renaming "Strength" to simply "Body"-while it certainly doesn't map 1-to-1 to reality, it makes sense that someone who is stronger is tougher.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    For what it's worth...putting aside how strength and toughness are often correlated IRL, I've seen very few characters with a high Strength and an average or worse Constitution, and only a few more with high Constitution and average Strength. These patterns are even stronger in the source fiction (ie, the standard fantasy works which D&D has been stealing from and been robbed by for decades).
    I agree, this is why I like this idea.

    However, I like the idea of turning Str and Con into a single stat - "Body" will do. HP is based on body, and now everyone has to be a bit stronger, but they have extra points to do that.

    Almost no changes are needed... barbarians get a bit tougher, but Primal Champion is unchanged (and maybe they get proficient in a single save...), so no big deal. Monks and Paladins become stronger, same for Dex fighters - which I like.

    Only caveat I see is that now Int and Cha are REALLY dump stats by comparison...
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Hmm, so perhaps a PC who is strong-not-tough would have Athletics (Str) proficiency -- or even expertise -- but not Str save proficiency.

    A character who is tough-not-strong would have Str save proficiency but not Athletics (Str) proficiency, and would not use Str-based attacks (possibly due to a lack of weapon proficiency).


    In terms of HP, I think the Proficiency bonus scales too well at the high end, especially for non-Barbarians. Not sure what to replace it with though. Could be a flat class bonus, modified by race & feats.

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    Oh, hey. Looks like I'm not the only one who's been contemplating stat mergers. If it helps, some names I've considered for the str/con combo are: Might, Brawn, Athletics, Fitness, Vigor, Power, Muscle, Build, Heft, and Ferocity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Diaz View Post
    Only caveat I see is that now Int and Cha are REALLY dump stats by comparison...
    When I saw the threat title, I assumed it would be about merging Intelligence and Charisma. It makes plenty of sense, mechanically; aside from skills, they're pretty much only used for arcane spellcasting and resisting some mental spells. Of course, it makes much less sense from a fluff point of view; there are plenty of idiotic people-people, and even more geniuses with no social skills.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    It's a really different idea... But I see the merits. I'll ask my players next time we roll up to try it out for a campaign. Thanks for sharing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrulus View Post
    It's a really different idea... But I see the merits. I'll ask my players next time we roll up to try it out for a campaign. Thanks for sharing!
    Let me know how it goes!
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    Seeing this, I'm kinda inspired to turn 5e into a 4-stat system.

    Strength (Str + Con)
    Dexterity
    Intuition (Int + Wis)
    Charisma

    Casters would be fairly well split between Charisma and Intuition. Take the opportunity to merge the skills Nature and Survival, and remove a minor fridge-logic moment where a PC can name traits about nearby plants OR know what's good to eat, but somehow those are separate checks which don't influence each other.

    I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.
    75% aren't too tricky, and we'd just need to find some (mostly Wisdom) saves which could be reframed as being more about force of personality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Oh, hey. Looks like I'm not the only one who's been contemplating stat mergers. If it helps, some names I've considered for the str/con combo are: Might, Brawn, Athletics, Fitness, Vigor, Power, Muscle, Build, Heft, and Ferocity.
    I'd go with Physique.
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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    how would you do barbarian unarmored defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Seeing this, I'm kinda inspired to turn 5e into a 4-stat system.

    Strength (Str + Con)
    Dexterity
    Intuition (Int + Wis)
    Charisma

    Casters would be fairly well split between Charisma and Intuition. Take the opportunity to merge the skills Nature and Survival, and remove a minor fridge-logic moment where a PC can name traits about nearby plants OR know what's good to eat, but somehow those are separate checks which don't influence each other.

    I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.
    I rather like this one. A similar system is used in online game Fallen London - Dangerousness is combat (sorta Strength), Shadowy is cunning and sneakiness (sorta Dexterity), Watchful is aptitude, intellect, and willpower (Intelligence plus mental Wisdom), and Persuasive is guile, charm, and wit (Charisma and social Wisdom). While the D&D version is somewhat different, it still works. Wisdom has always struck me as a weird ability score anyway - it's practically a synonym for experience. Some Wisdom saves are probably better suited to Charisma anyway. This does mean each class will potentially have two strong saves, but so will monsters.

    As for Nature/Survival, it's a lot closer to reality than one might think. A horticulturalist is going to know a lot about plant care, a botanist plant knows lifecycles and ecology, a biochemist knows plant chemistry and medicine, and a survivalist knows plant edibility. Plus knowing a plant is edible isn't the same as knowing how to prepare the plant safely; acorns are slightly toxic and must be soaked in water for days, multiple baths, before they can be ground up and eaten by humans. I certainly wouldn't risk it myself, even though I am aware it must be done.
    Last edited by Paleomancer; 2018-10-02 at 10:56 PM.
    2B or not 2B, that is... a really inane question

    In communication and in fiction, what is intended and what is understood, rarely align even in the best of times. It even rarer for it to be the best of times.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Barbarian level 20 feature

    What would the level 20 Barbarian feature be? They get +4 to STR and CON... Would it be like a +6 to STR?

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    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    +4 Strength only.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: 5 Stats For 5E

    I see no major issues with dropping CON. I won't be doing it though. I use Hitpoints as a sort of "stun system" where you lose the will to fight once you are reduced to 0 hp BUT you don't die. I have a SEPARATE track called WOUNDS (which I easily converted to 5e by using the Exhaustion rules since they were very similar to my Wounds rules anyway). Basically, I give every character a Wound track equal to their CON + Level and this total is divided into the 6 Levels of Exhaustion in the 5e PHB with surplus Wound levels being added to each tier starting with the 1st tier of the Exhaustion track. Thus I'll be keeping CON for my Wounds system as I like how it works to increase 5e's lethality.

    I would change WISDOM into WILLPOWER, though. This is just a personal preference for me. Willpower represents mental strength, determination, and a general "stubbornness" in a PC. This is a quantifiable CHARACTER TRAIT that can be measured by an ability score for role-playing purposes just like STR, CON, DEX, INT, and to a lesser extent CHA.

    WISDOM, on the other hand, is a "measure" of how much one "understands" the world and how it "works" and is based on one's "experiences" in that world. This is VERY HARD to quantify as a statistical value and more appropriately represents a PLAYER TRAIT instead of a Characteristic or Attribute. Therefore, I always change Wisdom to Willpower in my games.

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