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Thread: 5 Stats For 5E
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2017-07-28, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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5 Stats For 5E
Step one: Remove Constitution. Let's be honest, everyone needs it, everyone uses it, but it's BORING. It's entirely passive-about the only ACTIVE use of Constitution I can think of is a drinking contest. Speaking of which, things like drinking contests, Concentration saves, Cone of Cold saves, etc., now fall under Strength. Strength can, if you like, be renamed something like "Body", but that's not needed.
Make the following changes to races:
Dwarves gain +1 Strength
Hill Dwarves gain +2 Wisdom
Mountain Dwarves gain an additional +1 to Strength and gain the ability "Solid As Stone"-once per short rest, as a bonus action, gain resistance to all damage until the end of your next turn.
Stout Halflings gain +1 Strength
Rock Gnomes gain +1 Strength
Half-Orcs gain +1 to any stat besides Strength
Make the following changes to classes:
Barbarians gain Charisma saves
Fighters gain Intelligence saves
Sorcerers gain Strength saves
Now, lastly, HP. HP is now Hit Die+Proficiency Bonus (max at first level).
Point buy should also be dropped to probably 24 now.Last edited by JNAProductions; 2017-07-28 at 11:21 PM.
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2017-07-28, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2017-07-28, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2017-07-29, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
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2017-07-29, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2017-07-29, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
One problem I foresee with this is stat allocation. Suddenly, classes that rely on Constitution (any melee class) has one less stat dependency. Rogues only need one stat, paladins only need two.
I imagine that this will increase power to melee characters, since they will allocate the points that might have gone to Constitution to other stats.
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2017-07-29, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2017-07-30, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
Last edited by Knaight; 2017-07-30 at 10:55 PM.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-07-31, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
It's a versatility upgrade, at least slightly, but it might be a slight power downgrade to heavy-melee types who'd normally have invested more heavily in Con. At least at lower levels. But a starting +2 is certainly viable.
(For the record, I had a similar idea using [HD average-1] as your Con mod, so a Wizard's d6 would give them +2 HP, a Rogue's d8 a +3, and so on)Hill Giant Games
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2018-04-01, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
First off, the proficiency bonus to HP rather than CON is a great idea especially given the description of HP as not really being meat points but instead "don't die" points. I just worry that healthy characters will also be strong and by default half decent melee fighters and it also makes for odd roleplaying/in-world shenanigans when you use Strength rather than Constitution. I tend to be a DM that loves diseases, poisons, and other lovely Constitution based nastiness and like to give players the option to play healthy yet weak characters.
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2018-04-01, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
I was expecting this to consolidate Intelligence and Charisma (two stats which really only have a few skills, arcane spellcasting, and one save per blue moon between them), but this is actually well-thought-out and interesting.
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2018-04-01, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2018-04-02, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
This fix needs a bit more work. First and foremost, you need to put some thought into saving throws. Let's ignore how a bunch of classes have Constitution as a save, we'll get back to that - let's focus on effects that call for Con saves right now. Some effects calling for Con saves will be purely a matter of physical fortitude, and your ability to throw them off is a physical thing; these would probably need to become Str saves; then, there's some that are more about your stubbornness and determination to remain unaffected, which would probably fall under Wis saves; finally, there are some AoE effects (that spray poison and the like) which could potentially fall under some kind of "reflex to keep any from getting in your mouth/eyes/whatever" kind of Dex save...that being said, all three categories are kind of a stretch, and Con is the best way to deal with all of them (which is why they're Con saves in the first place). Additionally, the vast majority of these are probably going to be split evenly between Str and Wis, essentially making Wis a primary save, Str/Dex secondary saves, and Int/Cha tertiary ones. This complicates the save proficiency system, where currently every class has a primary and a secondary, and that's ignoring how this particular system would require going through the spell lists and declaring which Con save spells are now Str, Dex, or Wis. Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others. And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.
Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.
Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?
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2018-04-02, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
You must be looking at it differently, because I don't recognise a problem. High Str means you're larger and heavier. You have more mass, more blood, probably a stronger cardiovascular system, etc. I have no doubt that effects involving poison, disease, fatigue and cold can be covered by Str. The fact that some of these could fall under Dex doesn't change that. And I can't really think of any Con saves that I would describe as being mainly about stubbornness and determination. Can you give an example?
Even if we assume that all the Con saves go to Str to keep things simple, that just makes Str/Dex/Wis primaries and Int/Cha secondaries. Now any class with Str/Wis or Str/Dex has two primary saves (Monk and Ranger are the core classes that come to mind), which should be rectified to be more in line with the others.
And none of this is even touching on Concentration. One of the features of the base system for casting is that the only caster class that starts with proficiency in Con saves is the sorcerer, which when you look at the spell list it's clearly set up as a battle mage. Whether you push Concentration into Wis, or push it into {casting stat}, you'll be making Concentration saves easier across the board.
Constitution checks have a similar issue to spells that call for Con saves; you might not have thought of too many examples yourself, but the PHB lists five examples to get the gears going: holding your breath (Str?), march/labor for hours without rest (Str? Wis?), go without sleep (Wis?), survive without food or water (Wis?), chug a beer (...Str?), as well as the aforementioned drinking contest (...Wis?). All of these are stretches as Str or Wis, but are extremely fitting as Con checks.
Finally, while rare, there are some class features based on Constitution. The primary one that comes to mind is the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense, which...I guess would be part of Str now?
Of course, whether you like this fix will always depend on personal preference, since it can be highly idiosyncratic which abstractions someone does or does not accept. But I've run other systems that work just like this, filing rolls that would be Con-based in D&D under Strength (or the equivalent stat). I've never seen someone question it, even people who had played D&D previously. So I think there's nothing wrong with applying the same thing here.
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2018-04-02, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
Also, I did mention possibly renaming "Strength" to simply "Body"-while it certainly doesn't map 1-to-1 to reality, it makes sense that someone who is stronger is tougher.
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2018-04-11, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
For what it's worth...putting aside how strength and toughness are often correlated IRL, I've seen very few characters with a high Strength and an average or worse Constitution, and only a few more with high Constitution and average Strength. These patterns are even stronger in the source fiction (ie, the standard fantasy works which D&D has been stealing from and been robbed by for decades).
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2018-07-21, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
I agree, this is why I like this idea.
However, I like the idea of turning Str and Con into a single stat - "Body" will do. HP is based on body, and now everyone has to be a bit stronger, but they have extra points to do that.
Almost no changes are needed... barbarians get a bit tougher, but Primal Champion is unchanged (and maybe they get proficient in a single save...), so no big deal. Monks and Paladins become stronger, same for Dex fighters - which I like.
Only caveat I see is that now Int and Cha are REALLY dump stats by comparison...Methods & Madness - my D&D 5e /OSR /game design blog.
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2018-07-21, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
Hmm, so perhaps a PC who is strong-not-tough would have Athletics (Str) proficiency -- or even expertise -- but not Str save proficiency.
A character who is tough-not-strong would have Str save proficiency but not Athletics (Str) proficiency, and would not use Str-based attacks (possibly due to a lack of weapon proficiency).
In terms of HP, I think the Proficiency bonus scales too well at the high end, especially for non-Barbarians. Not sure what to replace it with though. Could be a flat class bonus, modified by race & feats.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-07-21, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
Oh, hey. Looks like I'm not the only one who's been contemplating stat mergers. If it helps, some names I've considered for the str/con combo are: Might, Brawn, Athletics, Fitness, Vigor, Power, Muscle, Build, Heft, and Ferocity.
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2018-08-08, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
When I saw the threat title, I assumed it would be about merging Intelligence and Charisma. It makes plenty of sense, mechanically; aside from skills, they're pretty much only used for arcane spellcasting and resisting some mental spells. Of course, it makes much less sense from a fluff point of view; there are plenty of idiotic people-people, and even more geniuses with no social skills.
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2018-08-13, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
It's a really different idea... But I see the merits. I'll ask my players next time we roll up to try it out for a campaign. Thanks for sharing!
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2018-08-13, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-13, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
Seeing this, I'm kinda inspired to turn 5e into a 4-stat system.
Strength (Str + Con)
Dexterity
Intuition (Int + Wis)
Charisma
Casters would be fairly well split between Charisma and Intuition. Take the opportunity to merge the skills Nature and Survival, and remove a minor fridge-logic moment where a PC can name traits about nearby plants OR know what's good to eat, but somehow those are separate checks which don't influence each other.
I suspect the biggest challenge would be to make each of the four stats a "Good" saving throw, and then change all the classes to only grant one of them with an option on a second.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-08-17, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
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2018-08-18, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-10-02, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
how would you do barbarian unarmored defense
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2018-10-02, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
I rather like this one. A similar system is used in online game Fallen London - Dangerousness is combat (sorta Strength), Shadowy is cunning and sneakiness (sorta Dexterity), Watchful is aptitude, intellect, and willpower (Intelligence plus mental Wisdom), and Persuasive is guile, charm, and wit (Charisma and social Wisdom). While the D&D version is somewhat different, it still works. Wisdom has always struck me as a weird ability score anyway - it's practically a synonym for experience. Some Wisdom saves are probably better suited to Charisma anyway. This does mean each class will potentially have two strong saves, but so will monsters.
As for Nature/Survival, it's a lot closer to reality than one might think. A horticulturalist is going to know a lot about plant care, a botanist plant knows lifecycles and ecology, a biochemist knows plant chemistry and medicine, and a survivalist knows plant edibility. Plus knowing a plant is edible isn't the same as knowing how to prepare the plant safely; acorns are slightly toxic and must be soaked in water for days, multiple baths, before they can be ground up and eaten by humans. I certainly wouldn't risk it myself, even though I am aware it must be done.
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2019-04-22, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Barbarian level 20 feature
What would the level 20 Barbarian feature be? They get +4 to STR and CON... Would it be like a +6 to STR?
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2019-04-22, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
+4 Strength only.
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2019-04-24, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5 Stats For 5E
I see no major issues with dropping CON. I won't be doing it though. I use Hitpoints as a sort of "stun system" where you lose the will to fight once you are reduced to 0 hp BUT you don't die. I have a SEPARATE track called WOUNDS (which I easily converted to 5e by using the Exhaustion rules since they were very similar to my Wounds rules anyway). Basically, I give every character a Wound track equal to their CON + Level and this total is divided into the 6 Levels of Exhaustion in the 5e PHB with surplus Wound levels being added to each tier starting with the 1st tier of the Exhaustion track. Thus I'll be keeping CON for my Wounds system as I like how it works to increase 5e's lethality.
I would change WISDOM into WILLPOWER, though. This is just a personal preference for me. Willpower represents mental strength, determination, and a general "stubbornness" in a PC. This is a quantifiable CHARACTER TRAIT that can be measured by an ability score for role-playing purposes just like STR, CON, DEX, INT, and to a lesser extent CHA.
WISDOM, on the other hand, is a "measure" of how much one "understands" the world and how it "works" and is based on one's "experiences" in that world. This is VERY HARD to quantify as a statistical value and more appropriately represents a PLAYER TRAIT instead of a Characteristic or Attribute. Therefore, I always change Wisdom to Willpower in my games.