Simple RAW Thread for 3.5 #35: 3/2 Score And Four Threads Ago

[Troacctid]

Q 608

Can you select a feat before choosing a class?

The PHB gives a numbered order of what to change if you level up, but it doesn't say you need to do them in order. And plenty of feats make skills class skills which means I can definitely choose feats before skills.

So following this, it makes sense I can select a PrC prerequisite feat first and then enter the PrC on the same level up. Not seeing anything that says I can't do this.

It's in the prestige class rules in the DMG. You pick the class first.

[magicalmagicman]

It's in the prestige class rules in the DMG. You pick the class first.

Alright, i confirmed this.

Q 609

Am I at least right about the other stuff? Picking skills, feats, spells, class features, etc. in any order I please?

[Dimers]

Q 610

Do multiple synergistic skills' bonuses stack? E.g. with five ranks in each of Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (nobility) would a character get +6 Diplomacy or +2?

[Khedrac]

A 610 Yes Although they are all synergy bonuses, they are from different sources so they stack.

[St Fan]

A 609

Q 609

Am I at least right about the other stuff? Picking skills, feats, spells, class features, etc. in any order I please?

By RAW, no. You add the elements of a new class/level in the order given on page 58 of the Player's Handbook, that is Class, BAB, Base Save Bonus, Ability Score, Hit Points, Skill Points, Feats, Spells, and Class Features.

Note this order is theoretically the most advantageous for the matter of prerequisites.

Now, it is certainly the one aspect of the rules where most GM will allow some leeway, but this is the RAW thread.

The one rule that won't be changed is that you must fit all prerequisites before taking the first level of a Prestige Class, that is in the level before it. Incidentally, that makes it impossible to take a Prestige Class at first level, however permissive are its prerequisite.

[KillianHawkeye]

Q 610

Do multiple synergistic skills' bonuses stack? E.g. with five ranks in each of Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (nobility) would a character get +6 Diplomacy or +2?

A 610 Yes Although they are all synergy bonuses, they are from different sources so they stack.

Re: 610

While we tend to simplify things by saying "synergy bonus", that is not an actual bonus type. Skill synergy provides an untyped bonus, which stacks with any other bonuses you might have.

[magicalmagicman]

A 609



By RAW, no. You add the elements of a new class/level in the order given on page 58 of the Player's Handbook, that is Class, BAB, Base Save Bonus, Ability Score, Hit Points, Skill Points, Feats, Spells, and Class Features.

Note this order is theoretically the most advantageous for the matter of prerequisites.

Now, it is certainly the one aspect of the rules where most GM will allow some leeway, but this is the RAW thread.

So to confirm, by RAW, a wizard cannot select the fiery burst reserve feat at 3rd level because he gains the "ability to cast 2nd level spells" last?
and if he selects a feat that makes a cross class skill a class skill (like apprentice), he still needs to treat that skill as a cross class skill for that level because you select feats after skills?

[newguydude1]

q 611

what is the object size of weapons? if a twohanded weapon is treated as the same size as its intended wielder, what is its actual size?

[Troacctid]

So to confirm, by RAW, a wizard cannot select the fiery burst reserve feat at 2nd level because he gains the "ability to cast 2nd level spells" last?
and if he selects a feat that makes a cross class skill a class skill (like apprentice), he still needs to treat that skill as a cross class skill for that level because you select feats after skills?

A feat can be selected the same level that you gain the prerequisites for it. This is in the PHB rules for feats. This doesn't allow a wizard to take Fiery Burst at 2nd level, though.

[magicalmagicman]

A feat can be selected the same level that you gain the prerequisites for it. This is in the PHB rules for feats. This doesn't allow a wizard to take Fiery Burst at 2nd level, though.

my bad, just woke up. Edited to the correct 3rd level.
Ok thanks for locating the RAW that says you can at least take feats last. You've been tremendously helpful.

[Duke of Urrel]

q 611

what is the object size of weapons? if a twohanded weapon is treated as the same size as its intended wielder, what is its actual size?

A 611

We just have to figure it out.

Usually, the size category of a weapon is inconsequential. For example, when you use the disarm action or the sunder action, only the weapon-size category of your opponent's weapon compared to yours matters. In other words, it matters only whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed; it doesn't matter whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, or Small. (Of course, the size category of your opponent's body also matters, but this isn't what you're asking.)

But suppose you want to make a mêlée attack against a weapon that is unattended, or suppose you want to make a ranged attack against a weapon. In this case, you need to know the weapon's Armor Class, and in order to know this, you need to know the weapon's size category.

Unfortunately, the rulebooks define size categories only for creatures, not for objects. Only a few size categories of a few large objects appear on page 166 of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK. The size categories of a few small objects appear on page 107 of the RULES COMPENDIUM. But no weapons are listed in either place. You can try to figure out the size categories of a few magic item types by looking at the Armor Class assigned to a magic item type in the DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE and breaking it down. (The DMG gives the AC of potions, rings, rods, scrolls, and staffs.) But again, neither a size category nor an Armor Class is given for any weapon.

I believe we have no choice but to refer to the size categories that are given for creatures – in Table 7-1 on page 314 of the MONSTER MANUAL – and apply them to weapons. For example, a weapon that is no more than 6 inches long would be Fine sized; a weapon that is longer than six inches but still no more than 12 inches long would be Diminutive; a weapon that is longer than 12 inches but still no more than 2 feet long would be Tiny; &c.

[Duke of Urrel]

Q 612

Suppose you cast the Astral Projection spell and travel in an astral body to another plane of existence, such as Hades. Then suppose you cast the Antimagic Field spell to protect yourself against an enemy's magical attacks.

My guess is that this is a blunder, because the Antimagic Field spell suppresses the Astral Projection spell and sends your soul right back to your original body, at least for as long as the Antimagic Field spell lasts.

Am I right about this?

[newguydude1]

A 611

We just have to figure it out.

Usually, the size category of a weapon is inconsequential. For example, when you use the disarm action or the sunder action, only the weapon-size category of your opponent's weapon compared to yours matters. In other words, it matters only whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed; it doesn't matter whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, or Small. (Of course, the size category of your opponent's body also matters, but this isn't what you're asking.)

But suppose you want to make a mêlée attack against a weapon that is unattended, or suppose you want to make a ranged attack against a weapon. In this case, you need to know the weapon's Armor Class, and in order to know this, you need to know the weapon's size category.

Unfortunately, the rulebooks define size categories only for creatures, not for objects. Only a few size categories of a few large objects appear on page 166 of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK. The size categories of a few small objects appear on page 107 of the RULES COMPENDIUM. But no weapons are listed in either place. You can try to figure out the size categories of a few magic item types by looking at the Armor Class assigned to a magic item type in the DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE and breaking it down. (The DMG gives the AC of potions, rings, rods, scrolls, and staffs.) But again, neither a size category nor an Armor Class is given for any weapon.

I believe we have no choice but to refer to the size categories that are given for creatures – in Table 7-1 on page 314 of the MONSTER MANUAL – and apply them to weapons. For example, a weapon that is no more than 6 inches long would be Fine sized; a weapon that is longer than six inches but still no more than 12 inches long would be Diminutive; a weapon that is longer than 12 inches but still no more than 2 feet long would be Tiny; &c.

tyvm i will use the creature size table and figure it out myself.

[Thurbane]

Repost for a new page:

Q 607

The LA assignment thread got me wondering: the Desiccation ability of the Phiuhl (FF) - it inflicts negative levels without being called out as energy drain or negative energy. Does that mean Death Ward would offer no protection?

[ranagrande]

Repost for a new page:

A 607: Death Ward grants immunity to "all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects." Desiccate is none of those things, so it would not be warded against.

[Blue Jay]

A 607: Death Ward grants immunity to "all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects." Desiccate is none of those things, so it would not be warded against.

A 607 Dissent

I disagree. When a creature has negative levels, the name for that status condition is "energy drained," and energy drain and negative levels are handled under the same heading in the MM glossary, so I would argue that anything that confers negative levels counts as "energy drain."

[ranagrande]

A 607 Dissent

I disagree. When a creature has negative levels, the name for that status condition is "energy drained," and energy drain and negative levels are handled under the same heading in the MM glossary, so I would argue that anything that confers negative levels counts as "energy drain."

In turn I would argue that while the "Energy Drained" condition is characterized by negative levels, it does not follow that all negative levels can be considered energy drain.

There is precedent for unrelated causes of negative levels, such as equipping magic items of opposing alignment.

[Blue Jay]

In turn I would argue that while the "Energy Drained" condition is characterized by negative levels, it does not follow that all negative levels can be considered energy drain.

There is precedent for unrelated causes of negative levels, such as equipping magic items of opposing alignment.

Granted. But, from the glossary in the back of the PHB:

energy drain: An attack that saps a creature’s vital energy giving it negative levels, which might permanently drain the creature’s levels.

I would argue that the phiuhl's Desiccate attack matches this definition, and should therefore be treated as "energy drain."

[Saintheart]

A 611

We just have to figure it out.

Usually, the size category of a weapon is inconsequential. For example, when you use the disarm action or the sunder action, only the weapon-size category of your opponent's weapon compared to yours matters. In other words, it matters only whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed; it doesn't matter whether your weapon or your opponent's weapon is Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, or Small. (Of course, the size category of your opponent's body also matters, but this isn't what you're asking.)

But suppose you want to make a mêlée attack against a weapon that is unattended, or suppose you want to make a ranged attack against a weapon. In this case, you need to know the weapon's Armor Class, and in order to know this, you need to know the weapon's size category.

Unfortunately, the rulebooks define size categories only for creatures, not for objects. Only a few size categories of a few large objects appear on page 166 of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK. The size categories of a few small objects appear on page 107 of the RULES COMPENDIUM. But no weapons are listed in either place. You can try to figure out the size categories of a few magic item types by looking at the Armor Class assigned to a magic item type in the DUNGEON MASTER'S GUIDE and breaking it down. (The DMG gives the AC of potions, rings, rods, scrolls, and staffs.) But again, neither a size category nor an Armor Class is given for any weapon.

I believe we have no choice but to refer to the size categories that are given for creatures – in Table 7-1 on page 314 of the MONSTER MANUAL – and apply them to weapons. For example, a weapon that is no more than 6 inches long would be Fine sized; a weapon that is longer than six inches but still no more than 12 inches long would be Diminutive; a weapon that is longer than 12 inches but still no more than 2 feet long would be Tiny; &c.

tyvm i will use the creature size table and figure it out myself.

A 611 addendum
So far as it's relevant, the spell Spiritual Weapon creates a weapon which is implicitly of Tiny size since the spiritual weapon's AC is 12: 10 + size bonus for Tiny size, and is explicitly said to be a "replica" of your deity's weapon. This includes most common weapons, and certainly includes the battleaxe, warhammer, heavy flail, etc, that are the preferred weapons for given alignments. As such it might be a useful rule of thumb that a mundane weapon for Medium size characters is Tiny when unattended, even if it's as big as a battleaxe. Size categories had more significance under 3.0 -- weapons had a size -- but this obviously doesn't help us out under 3.5.

[Blue Jay]

q 611

what is the object size of weapons? if a twohanded weapon is treated as the same size as its intended wielder, what is its actual size?

A 611

There's really no reason why "the size it's treated as" and "it's actual size" should ever be different. When it says, "treat it as size X," then for all game purposes, it is size X. So, a greatsword sized for a Medium creature is a Medium object. If you attack it while it is unattended, it has a +0 size bonus to AC. If you animate it with the animate objects spell, it has the statistics of a Medium animated object.

And be wary of using the size table to try to figure out size categories: those are just rough guidelines, and not all creatures and objects follow them. For a couple examples, many oozes are heavier than the range given for creatures of their size category, a frost worm is longer than a Huge creature should be, and the greater and elder elementals are simultaneously too tall and either too heavy or too light for Huge size (depending on element).

The real trick is figuring out the size category of a non-weapon object, because the guidelines are particularly sparse there.

[Doctor Despair]

Q 613

If a character takes two levels of the feat-rogue variant (lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as fighter), and then takes a level of fighter, do they have three bonus fighter feats, or just two? I suspect they'd have three, as they are different classes, but I wanted to make sure that the "as fighter" didn't mean they shared progression tables.

[Thurbane]

Q 614

Dumb question: can you use the function of a Limited Wish or Wish spell which duplicates another spell to meet item creation requirements? It seems like the answer would be yes, but I wanted to double check.


For instance - say I'm a Sorcerer who has the Craft Wondrous Item feat and knows Limited Wish, but not Dimension Door: can I use Limited Wish to duplicate DD, in the manufacture of a Cape of the Mountebank?

[Arkhios]

Q 615

Do you meet Dragon Disciple's spellcasting requirement merely by having a race that has a spell-like ability which duplicates a sorcerer/wizard spell?

For example, could I make a Dragon Disciple from a 5th level Tiefling Cleric (meeting all the other requirements: having 8 ranks in knowledge arcana and speaking draconic)

I seem to recall seeing a rule that creatures that have spell-like abilities essentially count as casting them as sorcerers.

[Khedrac]

A 614 So far as I can tell, Yes, but the xp cost is horrible.

A 615 No, a SLA gives you a caster level (usually arcane), and many prestige classes simply require such, but they do not count as spellcasting for classes that require it.

[Thurbane]

A 615 additional

SLAs can be used as substitutes for specific spells to meet reqs, but not for casting in general.

[Arkhios]

A 615 No, a SLA gives you a caster level (usually arcane), and many prestige classes simply require such, but they do not count as spellcasting for classes that require it.

R 615But the exact words for Dragon Disciple's Spellcasting Requirement reads

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

Which Darkness is for a tiefling, right? The requirement speaks nothing about having a spellcasting class to cast the spells. Only that you have the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. Spell-like abilities, RAW, are still considered spellcasting, you don't need to prepare them, and spell-like abilities default to being sorcerer/wizard spells, which are arcane spells.

And, the Bonus Spells feature reads

Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast.

If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted.

If I have levels in Cleric, I have spell slots, and as written I must decide to which class I add each bonus spell. AFAIK, I can choose cleric too. It doesn't say it has to be arcane class. And, as pointed out above, the requirement speaks nothing about an arcane spellcasting class to begin with.

To my reading, this doesn't break anything. So, I ask again, are you certain the answer is NO by RAW.

Q 615b ...this lead me to another question, as this feature's wording is rather strange. It speaks about bonus spells as if gained from high ability score, but you gain spell slots from that, not spells known? So which one is it? Spells Known or Spell Slots?

[Thurbane]

A 615a continued

As spelled out in Complete Mage, SLAs are neither arcane nor divine in nature, unless specified as such (i.e. like a Warlock's invocations). They certainly do not count as casting, in any case.

A 615b

You gain additional slots, not spells known.

[Gruftzwerg]

Q616: As non monk, can I UMD a Monk's Belt or Tattoo?

As example let's have a look at Monk's Belt as example:

The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

and the relevant part of UMD:

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So, my assumption is that I can do a "-20 UMD" check and take the result as my assumed monk lvl for that item (for the next hour..). The item treats my AC & unarmed damage as a monk 5 lvl higher than what I am emulating via UMD. "Treats" should means that the stat gets set to the value given in the table.

Am I assuming right? I'm curious since I never saw this got mentioned anywhere as far as I am aware. Have I missed or misinterpreted anything?

[Seto]

A616: Monk's Belt can seem UMDable at first glance, since its continous nature (use-activated) falls under the clause you are quoting. UMD does state "if you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour".

But it could be argued that you don't "need to use a class feature to activate a magic item" for Monk's Belt. It already functions for you as a non-Monk, with listed benefits (treats you as Monk 5). Therefore, since UMD doesn't actually grant you any class feature or levels, but merely lets you pretend to have them in order to activate an item, I'd say it doesn't work here, or doesn't change the granted benefits in any case.
Say you had an item that required Lay on Hands ability to activate. If you don't have that class feature, you can't activate it at all. But UMD lets you pretend that you have it --> now you can activate the item.
Now, take Monk's Belt. You can already use it, you're effectively treated as Monk 0. Even if you tried to UMD, it would only let you activate the item, which you can already do. What I mean is: there's no such thing as "activating Monk's Belt as a Monk 15". You can activate it, no matter your level (and you don't even need UMD for that). Then it gives you benefits according to your actual level, not the one you're faking with UMD.

I'd be curious to hear other opinions though, maybe I also missed something.

[Gruftzwerg]

A616: Monk's Belt can seem UMDable at first glance, since its continous nature (use-activated) falls under the clause you are quoting. UMD does state "if you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour".

But it could be argued that you don't "need to use a class feature to activate a magic item" for Monk's Belt. It already functions for you as a non-Monk, with listed benefits (treats you as Monk 5). Therefore, since UMD doesn't actually grant you any class feature or levels, but merely lets you pretend to have them in order to activate an item, I'd say it doesn't work here, or doesn't change the granted benefits in any case.
Say you had an item that required Lay on Hands ability to activate. If you don't have that class feature, you can't activate it at all. But UMD lets you pretend that you have it --> now you can activate the item.
Now, take Monk's Belt. You can already use it, you're effectively treated as Monk 0. Even if you tried to UMD, it would only let you activate the item, which you can already do. What I mean is: there's no such thing as "activating Monk's Belt as a Monk 15". You can activate it, no matter your level (and you don't even need UMD for that). Then it gives you benefits according to your actual level, not the one you're faking with UMD.

I'd be curious to hear other opinions though, maybe I also missed something.

UMD doesn't need to give me "Armor Class" and "Unarmed Strike" (the normal non-monk version), I already have those stats. When I pretend to have monk class lvls, I just get higher values than without.

Both effect versions (for monks and non-monks) give you
a) the unarmed damage of a "X" lvl monk
b) the AC as a "X" lvl monk

Note that the lethal or non-lethal dmg option and the ability to count as natural/manufactured weapon are part of the unarmed damage of a monk. Thus you get that stuff too.

As said, UMD just can help to get higher values back than without (as non-monk) if you roll/modifier is high enough.