Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[LansXero]

The only reason that people don't print out their own M:tG cards, is because you can't bring them to an official tournament, and the establishment that runs the tournament, will boot you out. If people could pirate their own M:tG cards, they would.

This is also why eternal formats suck (among other reasons). Old money cards are crap for quality control, there is a reason why most chinese counterfeits are of power nine and chase commander cards; faking current standard cards to the point where its undistinguishable is very expensive and problematic.

There are entire YouTube channels dedicated to making, faking, and catching fake cards. But, at the end of the day, they just have to pass the inspection of your basic idiot at your FLGS. If your printer can pump out the dpi with the quality to match where you wont be caught...Then that's game.

Dont you wish this was true? All the DPI in the world wont help you find the right cardstock, finish or thickness. Real-looking counterfeits arent that common. Of course, some morons will buy cards without taking them out of sleeves, but then thats not your basic idiot, thats an advanced idiot move.

Which is how it's running along in the current scene; Once your Forge World East models have been at least undercoated, no-one can tell the difference between that and the real thing. You can pretty easily tell by weight. But I'll let you just go up to some rando and start picking up his models. See how that works out.

Weight is a VERY niche metric though; it varies greatly with each individual re-caster, to the point where there is no noticeable difference unless you use a specialty scale, and none at all once bases get decorated. Some models are more perfect than others, but in the end plastic injection and chinese people dont giving a **** about tax statements or shipping costs has been a thing for a long, long time.

Nope. If 3D printing is cheaper, then it's cheaper. GW should start selling their CAD files for a tenner, and get on board the train. Music couldn't stop piracy. So they invented iTunes. Movies couldn't stop piracy. So out comes Netflix.

What 3D printing isnt is convenient. Sure, for the kind of geek that would hang out at a forum devoted to a webcomic about D&D 3.5 it may seem like the easiest thing in the world, but its not, despite reduction in price. Take laser cut terrain for example, its trivially easy to make straight lines into software and have them cut on wood / acryllic. Yet people will still pay a premium on laser-craft terrain because they cant be arsed to do that.

Everyone wants everything cheaper. All the time. No exceptions. The only way you get consumers buying what they could otherwise get for free, is by lowering your prices.

Well yes, but actually, no. Game stores who are currently crapping their pants in fear of Amazon made up this term, Unique Value Proposition, to describe why they haven't closed down yet, but it applies to manufacturers as well as retailers. Whats Game Workshop's UVP? Whats the intangible, proprietary virtue of the game that can't be 3Dprinted or sourced to china?

There is a reason why MTG is now focusing so hard on Arena and e-sports, and its not the chase of microtransaction money that people stupidly assigns them. What Arena makes is chump change for Hasbro. But the hype, the media talk, the organized play, the community building, the 'play the game, see the world' dream, those are all things that you can't counterfeit, that cant be had at distribution cost through mass drop and that WotC can control much more tightly than the aftermarker price of their game or how many chinese people break through their protection measures.

1. Get a model's sprue - you might have even paid full price!
2. Scan it using your 3D printer.
3. Make 20 sprues for a few dollars.

This what GW has to compete with, and soon.

1. Get a model's sprue on blue-tac or a higher quality mold
2. Make a metal mold
3. Inject 20 20 000 sprues for cents.

This what GW has to compete with, and NOW.

This is basically what I was getting at with the bit of my post you disagreed with: I believe we should support the industry, but if someone seeks a cheaper option because that is what they can afford I won’t criticise them for that in and of itself. What I will criticise, and hope to convince them of, is why it’s important their money goes to supporting the creators rather than those who steal from them.

There are workarounds currently, both legal and otherwise. But the key point is that what they can duplicate is just the models and the printed rules; while piracy is impossible to curtail, a lot of prevention comes from goodwill, social pressure and value beyond the copied parts.

Whats better for GW: a physical copy that can be scanned with technology from the 90s just to please grognards, or an app thats both convenient and they can paywall access to, thats required for OP and which allows you to keep up with constant errata and quality control fixes? Sure, it destroys the old player's expectations and paradigms, but you cant have it all.

It’s carrot and stick. I could argue with people pirating stuff by accusing them of theft and taking a blanket ‘that’s not acceptable’ stance, but I don’t think that’s likely to be as effective as getting them to understand why it is reasonable to pay the price asked.

Nobody cares about reasonable. People understand EV: Is the time and effort it will take me to bypass this obstacle (payment) worth it, or would I be better off just paying?. Sure, people with means never realize this because the obstacle (money) never registers as such, so much like every succesful businessman origin story ever, confirmation bias lets them take the high road and pontificate on others about things.

Piracy is perceived as a victimless crime, not because think there is no victim, but because people know there is no victim that they care about. The only way you can realistically fight it is by either adding value to originals (which is why more and more games move to subscription or service based models) or making it so impractical that there is very little benefit.

(It would be helpful in this regard if GW had greater transparency over the cost base of model production and their pricing decisions, but that’s not likely to happen)

It costs peanuts, and the pricing is what the market will bear, off the backs of both independent stockists who are too invested to quit, and addicts fans who will keep working their PR and marketing for them for free.

[Avaris]

There are workarounds currently, both legal and otherwise. But the key point is that what they can duplicate is just the models and the printed rules; while piracy is impossible to curtail, a lot of prevention comes from goodwill, social pressure and value beyond the copied parts.

Whats better for GW: a physical copy that can be scanned with technology from the 90s just to please grognards, or an app thats both convenient and they can paywall access to, thats required for OP and which allows you to keep up with constant errata and quality control fixes? Sure, it destroys the old player's expectations and paradigms, but you cant have it all.

Yup, evolve or die. The current model for selling rules has been frustratingly obsolete for years.

It costs peanuts, and the pricing is what the market will bear, off the backs of both independent stockists who are too invested to quit, and addicts fans who will keep working their PR and marketing for them for free.

Not quite; the cost of an individual sprue is minimal, what I’m talking about is the much more complicated calculation of how much you need to charge to cover the sunk costs of production. If you can predict you’ll sell 2000 units, and it cost you £200,000 to design the model and make the mould, you need to charge at least £100 for the model, even if it costs you almost nothing to produce the sprue itself. (Figures illustrative only: mould costs and sales predictions are the sort of thing I doubt GW will ever reveal)

[LansXero]

Yup, evolve or die. The current model for selling rules has been frustratingly obsolete for years.

Not quite; the cost of an individual sprue is minimal, what I’m talking about is the much more complicated calculation of how much you need to charge to cover the sunk costs of production. If you can predict you’ll sell 2000 units, and it cost you £200,000 to design the model and make the mould, you need to charge at least £100 for the model, even if it costs you almost nothing to produce the sprue itself. (Figures illustrative only: mould costs and sales predictions are the sort of thing I doubt GW will ever reveal)

Do you feel there is something intrinsecally proprietary to GW's processes other than the quality of the IP / talent of the people in charge of the sculpts? Because there isn't, their process is the same as that of many companies who dont charge such a premium, and then less due to large scale and production overseas.

Its a very profitable business, and it would be even more if they didnt have this ridiculous need to invest on dead SKUs to linger at warehouses for years.

[Avaris]

Do you feel there is something intrinsecally proprietary to GW's processes other than the quality of the IP / talent of the people in charge of the sculpts? Because there isn't, their process is the same as that of many companies who dont charge such a premium, and then less due to large scale and production overseas.

Its a very profitable business, and it would be even more if they didnt have this ridiculous need to invest on dead SKUs to linger at warehouses for years.

Considerations around scale of production mostly: while there are economies of scale the basic cost of doing business is also higher. Their moulds have to be harder wearing, they need to be more certain of getting quality right every time because they don’t have the capacity to check every single sprue that goes out. They also have lots of things such as costs of Eavy Metal for box art, large scale distribution concerns, warehousing etc. And of course their own stores. It adds up.

But yes, it is very profitable. But we don’t know where the margins are. It’s a common refrain that GW is overpriced, and it probably is, but not to the level people seem to think it is when comparing to the rest of the market. It’s comparing apples and oranges. We can’t take the costs seen in over companies as fully reflective of what GW costs. Any attempt to work it out is pure speculation.

[Wraith]

(Figures illustrative only: mould costs and sales predictions are the sort of thing I doubt GW will ever reveal)

I've heard it slipped that GW likes to tell people that they spend £3-5000 per mould which is, in the opinion of some people I know who have worked in a similar industry, plausible but WAY above average.

GW also tend to low-ball the amount of uses they get out of each mould before it needs to be replaced. That could be a quality issue - possibly replacing them early, rather than risk one or two runs being anything less than perfect - but again, the opinion is that they're either being less than truthful or that they REALLY treat their equipment like **** and ruin it quickly. Which is frankly quite impressive for metre-long blocks of stainless steel getting "worn out".

[Renegade Paladin]

I've heard it slipped that GW likes to tell people that they spend £3-5000 per mould which is, in the opinion of some people I know who have worked in a similar industry, plausible but WAY above average.

I've worked in industrial plastic injection molding. It's been about eight years since, but back then the largest precision injection molds we had cost slightly north of $100,000 USD. Mind, those were gigantic blocks of steel that we had to use a propane driven forklift to hoist into the machines because they were heavy enough to tip the electric ones, but none of them were what you would call cheap. They had higher precision tolerances than are necessary for hobby models (you REALLY don't want loose tolerances on aircraft parts), but I'm not at all surprised at that claimed cost and wouldn't blink if they said it was higher.

[LansXero]

I mean, if you assume all models are made in the UK with the corresponding manufacturing costs, then perhaps it would make sense...

Spoiler: Then again:

Show

In the dice industry there is so much rampant backstabbing and design copying its not even funny; there were several new brands launched in the US this year which are just fancy repackages of chinese dice off Alibaba. Those are Huang Da dice, which another chinese company stole from (literally went into their plant and downloaded the designs), and who itself was for a while using another companies machines and stock to fulfill their own orders. Its madness, but no matter how many hands it goes through it still makes money, because americans are silly and pay 12$ for sets of 50 cents dice if it comes in a pretty clamshell or has a LED display.

If you've actually seen GOOD recaster work, you'd know GW's standard isnt that far above the rest, likely due to being manufactured in the same place under the same procedures. Much like sleeves, dice, heroclix, etc. which are copied way over what their 'official' owner needs or wants, Im sure whatever GW does is easily imitated by them, who dont have the reach and marketing power though, nor the time to worry about silly plastic men when they can sell a few other million christmas ornaments instead.

Even the 'made in the UK' label could refer not to the sprues, but to the boxed product. Slipping transfers inside and sealing the box might count as 'made' as far as I know, with the sprues having come loose from overseas.

[Avaris]

My understanding is that the main sprues are made in the UK factory, though some things are not (realm of battle boards for one, I wouldn’t be surprised if things like scenary and bases were another. Also packaging, maybe). Source: I’ve seen the factory, from the outside at least, and had what is manufactured there explained to me.

The article here, though over a decade old, gives quite a good analysis of the sort of costs I’m thinking about. No idea how accurate it is, but Tl:dr, net profit to GW on a sale of a $55 product is perhaps in the region of $4 - $6. And some of that profit will be needed for further capital investment.

Edit: further information from the GW anual report: in 2017-18 they ‘invested’ £8.9m in the studio (invest implies one off costs, so software upgrade etc?) and £3.1m on tooling for new plastic models. Which feels like a lot!

[LansXero]

Tl:dr, net profit to GW on a sale of a $55 product is perhaps in the region of $4 - $6.

That makes no sense, for a very, very simple reason:

Lets say, Marneus Calgar. MSRP: 55.00$

Calgar costs me, an independent stockist, 30.00$.

So, scenario 1:
- Making a Calgar costs 24.00$. They make 6.00$ when they sell to me, and 31$ when they sell to the public through their own store. Even if you add 20% to the base cost in overhead, shipping or taxes (which you shouldnt,as all those are already present when selling to stockists, so whatever) thats a 30.00$ cost and 25.00$ profit on 1 Marneus Calgar.

scenario 2:
- Making a Calgar costs 49.00$. So they make 6.00$ when they sell through their webstore, and lose 19.00$ every time they sell to an independent stockist. Even if you apply the same reduction as before, they still lose 13.00$ on every sell to a store.

Then consider that GW sells to Distributors, not just stores, and they quite likely get a lower price than me and what you stated makes no sense at all.

[Blackhawk748]

That makes no sense, for a very, very simple reason:

Lets say, Marneus Calgar. MSRP: 55.00$

Calgar costs me, an independent stockist, 30.00$.

So, scenario 1:
- Making a Calgar costs 24.00$. They make 6.00$ when they sell to me, and 31$ when they sell to the public through their own store. Even if you add 20% to the base cost in overhead, shipping or taxes (which you shouldnt,as all those are already present when selling to stockists, so whatever) thats a 30.00$ cost and 25.00$ profit on 1 Marneus Calgar.

scenario 2:
- Making a Calgar costs 49.00$. So they make 6.00$ when they sell through their webstore, and lose 19.00$ every time they sell to an independent stockist. Even if you apply the same reduction as before, they still lose 13.00$ on every sell to a store.

Then consider that GW sells to Distributors, not just stores, and they quite likely get a lower price than me and what you stated makes no sense at all.

GW's markup is crazy. I talked to some of the Mantic guys and they said that it costs them something like 1/4 of what they charge when its all said a done. Except for characters. Characters make them an insane amount of money

[LeSwordfish]

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but basically everything these days is priced based on "what people are willing to pay" rather than any calculation of actual costs - see the various companies kept aloft entirely by outside funding because their core model isn't making any money, like Uber.

[LansXero]

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but basically everything these days is priced based on "what people are willing to pay" rather than any calculation of actual costs - see the various companies kept aloft entirely by outside funding because their core model isn't making any money, like Uber.

Yes and no. On a vacuum perhaps, but people nowadays are VERY irresponsible with their money. Sustained growth requires that you show restraint in the milking of your cash cow and keep a steady flow of goodwill and hype, otherwise they'll wake up, realize they are trading work-hours for nicely shaped plastic and cash out. If it becomes widespread your cow dies and your 'profit' becomes 0. Negative even, as growth requires investment ahead of time and if the demand isnt there anymore then its a lost of wasted machines and burdensome salaries gutting you.

Ruthless capitalism is only preached by those at the middle of it. Those at the top and the bottom know that its screwed up, and will either try and mask it or will actively oppose it (yes, rich men are calling for subsidies and taxes all the time, and the poorest of the poor will bleed for the status quo, go figure).

[Blackhawk748]

LansXero has it right. If you want to survive in today's gaming economy you need the goodwill of your fan base. This is why Mantic, Flying Frog and Cool Mini Or Not are doing pretty well. The fans directly support them and want what they make, its why they take direct advantage of Kickstarter. We, the fans, are their investors, not someone who is unattached and is just trying to make money.

[Cheesegear]

Dont you wish this was true? All the DPI in the world wont help you find the right cardstock, finish or thickness.

Like I said, there are whole channels dedicated to not just detecting, but making fakes. It's not that hard.

But let's go to a current example;

It's like making movement wound trays for Apocalypse.
First, you need a hot glue gun and a sheet of 3mm foam core, a sheet of a few mm cardcstock, a - preferably metal - ruler, and a knife. If you have a drill, you may even want to buy a holesaw. It's way more difficult without a holesaw, but you don't need one. If you're going crazy, you may even invest in some brass rod, so you can pick up the entire tray using a handle.
All of this will set you back $50-100 (AUD), depending on the quality of your materials.

Now? The rest is time. Once you've smashed out your first movement wound tray, you'll quite easily smash out the rest, once you've done the tutorial.

The upfront cost is pretty big. But it's not really bigger than the upfront cost of buying off the shelf.
Except unlike the off-the-shelf, I can make many different sizes of wound tray, and I can make way more than GW will sell me for the same cost.

What else am I gonna do on a Sunday? May as well just smash out a load of movement trays. Some 32mm for my Marines, and some 25mm for my AdMech and Guard.
Easy.

But...If I go to my local GW on Apocalypse Day, will my Blackshirt cuss me out for not only not buying from him, but also showing other people that they too, don't need to buy from him either? But the total cost of making my own movement trays, is roughly the same as buying off the shelf. Except by making them myself, I make ****-loads more, and, the way I want them with a mix of sizes. Isn't that just capitalism and my entrepreneurial spirit?

Then, my Blackshirt goes to something that isn't really capitalism at all...
"If I don't approve of what you've done or made, you can't bring it."

There is a chance I may be forced to buy movement trays, not because they're the best product, not because they're the best value-for-money, not because I want to buy them. But, if I don't...I can't play with my toys.

'No Proxies!' ...Why not? ...Because if you use proxies, you have no need to buy models anymore.
'No 3D printing!' ...Why not? ...Because if you do, you have no need to buy models anymore.

That's not capitalism. I don't remember the name of it. But it's not capitalism.

Real-looking counterfeits arent that common.

They don't have to be common. One dude just has to do it, well. Once he shows the people in the meta that it can be done, either other people start getting on the train with him, or he starts selling his services to his local base.

What 3D printing isnt is convenient.

Not right now. Like I said, once home printers are affordable, which will happen within the decade, a whole bunch of textile industries go out of business. Why buy cutlery, plates or glasses, when you can just print 'em?

Not now. But definitely within the decade.

Nobody cares about reasonable. People understand EV: Is the time and effort it will take me to bypass this obstacle (payment) worth it, or would I be better off just paying?

QFT.

[Avaris]

That makes no sense, for a very, very simple reason:

Lets say, Marneus Calgar. MSRP: 55.00$

Calgar costs me, an independent stockist, 30.00$.

So, scenario 1:
- Making a Calgar costs 24.00$. They make 6.00$ when they sell to me, and 31$ when they sell to the public through their own store. Even if you add 20% to the base cost in overhead, shipping or taxes (which you shouldnt,as all those are already present when selling to stockists, so whatever) thats a 30.00$ cost and 25.00$ profit on 1 Marneus Calgar.

scenario 2:
- Making a Calgar costs 49.00$. So they make 6.00$ when they sell through their webstore, and lose 19.00$ every time they sell to an independent stockist. Even if you apply the same reduction as before, they still lose 13.00$ on every sell to a store.

Then consider that GW sells to Distributors, not just stores, and they quite likely get a lower price than me and what you stated makes no sense at all.

Very good point. I suspect the way it works in theory is that models sold to distributors are priced to cover costs of production, whereas those sold through GW’s own channels are priced to cover store costs etc as well, which obviously will be roughly the same as the store costs faced by independent retailers. I imagine there is a complex formula behind this, though also with a heavy element of ‘what can consumers support’ as suggested by others. Most likely, such a formula comes into it when deciding if it’s economically viable to make a product, starting with the price, rather than pricing it once it has been produced.

LansXero has it right. If you want to survive in today's gaming economy you need the goodwill of your fan base. This is why Mantic, Flying Frog and Cool Mini Or Not are doing pretty well. The fans directly support them and want what they make, its why they take direct advantage of Kickstarter. We, the fans, are their investors, not someone who is unattached and is just trying to make money.

Yup, this is the crux of it. Until a few years ago GW had the arrogance to simply believe it was dominant enough that it didn’t need to engage with its consumers all that much. But their recent building up of the community site is a clear shift in thinking there, which is a good thing. The problem they’ve got is that there is a lot of negative feeling and cynicism built up in the community, which will take time to break down (especially as to some extent the cynics are right: they ARE just doing this to make money. But this is a luxury hobby in a capitalist society, so that’s not exactly a profound insight).

Good example actually of GW trying to engage with their community and improve goodwill is the recent videos mocking themselves for the sheer numbers of Primaris Lieutenants they release. This was a frustration in the community, so GW has built on that rather than dismissing it.

[Wraith]

It's like making movement wound trays for Apocalypse.
First, you need a hot glue gun and a sheet of 3mm foam core, a sheet of a few mm cardcstock, a - preferably metal - ruler, and a knife. If you have a drill, you may even want to buy a holesaw. It's way more difficult without a holesaw, but you don't need one. If you're going crazy, you may even invest in some brass rod, so you can pick up the entire tray using a handle.
All of this will set you back $50-100 (AUD), depending on the quality of your materials.

A guy I used to LARP with has been experimenting, and from what I've seen I believe that all you need is a piece of plastic - a serving tray or a children's plate bought for pennies each, just so long as it's the "hard" plastic that, when heated, goes soft rather than smoulders - and a (preferably electric) oven. The hardest part is to find a piece of metal or wood the same size as a 40mm base that you can use to press into the hot plastic and make an indent, then trim the thing to size. Or don't bother with that last step, if you have 30 Grots spaced 2" apart, of course.

'No Proxies!' ...Why not? ...Because if you use proxies, you have no need to buy models anymore.
'No 3D printing!' ...Why not? ...Because if you do, you have no need to buy models anymore.

That's not capitalism. I don't remember the name of it. But it's not capitalism.

A coersive monopoly - using 'executive power' to guarantee a single supplier of a product or service - I think? It's one of the many unpleasant things that happen as a free-market capitalism turns into corporate capitalism. The good news is that once that happens, real-life Cyberpunk is only a short time away and that would be awesome.

==========

In unrelated news, I still have it in my head to work on an updated Guide to the Grey Knights. I've done some research, army lists and podcasts and things, and I'm convinced that there's a way to build them that isn't burning failure, so long as you're prepared to go all-in on a massive alpha-strike. Unfortunately the whole thing revolves around three types of units, so I'm trying to figure out what you'd do with the other ~14 available in the codex (if anything).

Grey Knights can work. I'm sure of it.You just... need to ignore all the stuff that makes them cool and special, spam their 2 best units like crazy and be prepared to give up in turn 2 a lot. I'll keep working on it.

[Cheesegear]

A coersive monopoly - using 'executive power' to guarantee a single supplier of a product or service - I think?

You can buy anything you want! ...As long as it's from us.

[LansXero]

Very good point. I suspect the way it works in theory is that models sold to distributors are priced to cover costs of production, whereas those sold through GW’s own channels are priced to cover store costs etc as well, which obviously will be roughly the same as the store costs faced by independent retailers. I imagine there is a complex formula behind this, though also with a heavy element of ‘what can consumers support’ as suggested by others. Most likely, such a formula comes into it when deciding if it’s economically viable to make a product, starting with the price, rather than pricing it once it has been produced.

Except that those are three different channels and I very much doubt either is allowed to operate at-cost. My initial example already included costs of handling, and its not like there are no such costs included in the prices for stockists / distributors, so the 45% increase in markup is still there. No matter how you slice it, its unreasonable to consider GW makes paper thin margins or operates at cost and is struggling to get by.

Also, GW doesnt research ****. Why else do you think Carrion Empire and Looncurse were criminally under-produced and everything is now allocated until our orders do their research for them and they can ship a new batch from China?

Yup, this is the crux of it. Until a few years ago GW had the arrogance to simply believe it was dominant enough that it didn’t need to engage with its consumers all that much. But their recent building up of the community site is a clear shift in thinking there, which is a good thing. The problem they’ve got is that there is a lot of negative feeling and cynicism built up in the community, which will take time to break down (especially as to some extent the cynics are right: they ARE just doing this to make money. But this is a luxury hobby in a capitalist society, so that’s not exactly a profound insight).

Nobody resents them making money (nobody sane at least). What people resent is their decisions not being based on long term health of the hobby / product line, but instead short-sighted cash grabs to pad out numbers on finance reports. Sure, we are not privy to a lot of information that they are probably taking into account, but GW wont be the first nor last company to go under because of too many pats in its own back and failing to see the forest because the trees got in the way.

Good example actually of GW trying to engage with their community and improve goodwill is the recent videos mocking themselves for the sheer numbers of Primaris Lieutenants they release. This was a frustration in the community, so GW has built on that rather than dismissing it.

There is a lot that they do right. And then they **** on all of it by arbitrarily rising prices inconsistently across the board. They throw away all the hard work the sales reps and stockists have done since 8th came out, for what? Its not like they targetted their strongest / more popular models either, plenty of unsellable junk got hit with a price hike. This is right after they sink a ton of money on larger pots for Air paints nobody asked for and drained stores of cashflow forcing them to upgrade to get Contrast. Asinine moves that show that departments arent talking to each other.

Like I said, there are whole channels dedicated to not just detecting, but making fakes. It's not that hard.

Look, I get what you are saying. A passable proxy so long as it stays double-sleeved under normal crappy clubhouse lighting? absolutely. But thats no more valid than writing 'mox jet' with sharpie on a basic land. Actual counterfeits, the kind that can fetch hundreds of $ online and will pass most of the common authenticity tests? no, it IS pretty hard. And its certainly not doable off regular inkjet printers either.

ut let's go to a current example;

It's like making movement wound trays for Apocalypse.
First, you need a hot glue gun and a sheet of 3mm foam core, a sheet of a few mm cardcstock, a - preferably metal - ruler, and a knife. If you have a drill, you may even want to buy a holesaw. It's way more difficult without a holesaw, but you don't need one. If you're going crazy, you may even invest in some brass rod, so you can pick up the entire tray using a handle.
All of this will set you back $50-100 (AUD), depending on the quality of your materials.

Now? The rest is time. Once you've smashed out your first movement wound tray, you'll quite easily smash out the rest, once you've done the tutorial.

But why?

grab a thin piece of mdf. grab a thicker piece of mdf and laser-cut circles in it, in a pattern of your choosing. It should be less than an hour at most services. glue the resulting thick rings on top of the thin 'base'. Voilà, mov. trays with no investment other than maybe learning to design. We actually have those somewhere, a friend did it but the 'base' is metal so the magnets on its minis bases can lock on for ease of transport.

[LeSwordfish]

1. If you're playing 'Beer & Pretzels' in your friends' basement, you're already destroying the hobby anyway.

No, seriously, what on earth does this mean?

[Avaris]

Asinine moves that show that departments arent talking to each other.

This. This, right here, is the biggest problem GW has. They are changing their attitude as a company, but not all parts of the company or business model have got with the programme yet.

[Cheesegear]

No, seriously, what on earth does this mean?

For a hobby that is driven by the community, removing yourself from your meta, destroys the meta.
If everyone in the entire hobby decided that from now on, they would only ever play one opponent from that point forward. The hobby would crash and burn. Especially if you're going to play in a garage, where you can't interact with your community and drive ideas forwards in what people should or shouldn't do in certain situations.

Diversity and vibrancy of your local meta, is what drives the meta. The more people playing in it, the better. The more people who see you play it, the better.

(Again, going back to my previous stance that refusing games is only ever a bad thing. Sure, you can do bad things for good reasons. But you're still not playing games.)

Playing games on your store's tables is also free publicity for the store (and the hobby). Basically, as before, if people know you play games there, they'll play games there.

[LeSwordfish]

For a hobby that is driven by the community, removing yourself from your meta, destroys the meta.

**** the meta.

(Again, going back to my previous stance that refusing games is only ever a bad thing. Sure, you can do bad things for good reasons. But you're still not playing games.)

I don't have to engage in fun things if they won't be fun. Nobody's paying me to do this.

If everyone in the entire hobby decided that from now on, they would only ever play one opponent from that point forward. The hobby would crash and burn.

...no it wouldn't? This whole post seems dedicated to confusing the way you play with the only way anyone plays (and confusing beer-and-pretzels play with "only playing one person". Which is dumb but also doesn't matter because I can play only one person if I want.)

[Avaris]

There may be a case that ‘playing in a garage’ doesn’t bring new people into the hobby (though even that is quite suspect, as it’s perfectly possible to invite people to join in if you think they’re interested), but that in no way equates to ‘destroying’ the hobby!

[Cheesegear]

**** the meta.

You are okay with your community not having you in it.
Rad.

I don't have to engage in fun things if they won't be fun.

Nobody is saying you have to.
But if you're not playing or engaging with other people, who cares what you do with your own time? If you don't care about your local community, then keep playing in your house.
You do you, dude. Nobody is stopping you from playing in your own house if that's what's fun for you.

but that in no way equates to ‘destroying’ the hobby!

Yes it does. By removing yourself from your community, you make your community smaller.
For a community-based game, that is only a bad thing.

Rather than ostracizing other people, you're ostracizing yourself. You are choosing not to play games with other people. That is only bad.

Scenario:
Someone wants to play with you.
You don't want to play with them.

Do you play the game, or don't you? Who gets their feelings hurt?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah, that ignores SO MANY REASONS why people may not want to join larger groups.
1. Not being able to afford to play in a more competitive meta.
2. Not willing to play in a more competitive meta.
3. Not wanting to play with total strangers and risk having an unfun game.
4. Preference for narrative or open play where matched play dominates the meta.
5. Not being able to afford a full army where metas usually play higher points.
6. Simply not liking the people in the community.

There are legitimate reasons not to play in whatever the local meta may be. And many of those reasons serve to SHIFT the meta. If all the meta does is hyper-competitive, then you could suck it up and play hyper-competitive (if you can afford to), or you can create a second meta that you actually LIKE, and slowly build it up from scratch to try to shift the meta.

I never played in stores until recently because I couldn't afford a full army (and still can't afford a competitive one, but luckily there's a good casual meta in my city). My best friend who I played with still doesn't play in stores because he doesn't enjoy matched play, and mostly plays narrative. I guess we apologize for ruining your fun by not playing in stores?

edit: and yeah, you don't play with them. Why would I play with someone I don't like, or play a game I don't like? So that a group of other people I don't like can continue to play another game I don't like better? Nah. Some metas are toxic and should die. Others should be shifted away from toxicity. You shouldn't support a meta for it's own sake.

[LansXero]

Anecdotal evidence, but until we picked up the game with the launch of 8th, our country's community was a bunch of old ones hybernating getting maybe 1 game going every couple of months. Inactivity and isolationism kill the hobby, even if they are rightfully what some people might prefer, for the simple reason that any community not growing is decaying (since people will inevitably move on) and is only in borrowed time until it mplodes

[Cheesegear]

1. Not being able to afford to play in a more competitive meta.

Talk to people.

Not willing to play in a more competitive meta.

Talk to people.

Not wanting to play with total strangers and risk having an unfun game.

Nobody in your community should be a total stranger, because you talk to them.

Preference for narrative or open play where matched play dominates the meta.

Talk to people.

Not being able to afford a full army where metas usually play higher points.

Talk to people.

Simply not liking the people in the community.

If everyone in your local community sucks, either you're the problem, or, you don't actually have a community, and what you have is, instead, a bunch of a*holes. Then yeah. That's ****.
My condolences.

In my experience, 100% of issues can be solved by talking to people. And my meta is the toxic one, remember? Because everyone should be always wanting to play games.

Inactivity and isolationism kill the hobby even if they are rightfully what some people might prefer, for the simple reason that any community not growing is decaying (since people will inevitably move on) and is only in borrowed time until it implodes

Even if you want to play at home, don't.

Perfectly said.

[Avaris]

I think the conflict here is that Cheesegear is saying ‘playing at home is bad’, when what they mean is ‘ONLY playing at home is bad’?

Though there is also a question of how one defines a hobby community. I consider myself to be part of several to varying degrees, and the extent to which I engage with each is different. Thinking of ‘the community’ as a monolithic entity, even in a local area, is too simplistic. It’s more like different bubbles of community, or a venn diagram.

[Cheesegear]

I think the conflict here is that Cheesegear is saying ‘playing at home is bad’, when what they mean is ‘ONLY playing at home is bad’?

Any time, in which you play at home, where you could instead play at a store, is bad.
So...Obviously, your local store probably isn't open on a Tuesday night. Don't play then.
But why not Saturday?

Though there is also a question of how one defines a hobby community.

Bunch of people in the same physical location doing the same thing.

[LeSwordfish]

You are okay with your community not having you in it.
Rad.

I just choose a different community. And if the community I choose is like two other people and we play what we want on someone's dinner table with beers, how absolutely dare you say we're killing the game. Why does a "community" have to be a big group? And why do you then conflate that community of people with the metagame? (i know why, because you can't imagine people playing for any other reason than to win the best). It's not my responsibility to keep my local store or club going if I don't want to play there. I'm the customer in this case, it's their job to "sell" the community to me.

Scenario:
Someone wants to play with you.
You don't want to play with them.

Do you play the game, or don't you? Who gets their feelings hurt?

I don't. I don't owe them anything. They can find another game. Or maybe they can't: that's not my problem. I'm not going to set out to hurt anyone's feelings but if they're upset by the nicest way I can phrase "I don't think playing with you would be fun, i'm going home instead" then that's their problem.

Someone wants to date you.
You don't want to date them.

Do you go on the date with them? Of course you don't, duh.