Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Adrastos42]

Just got back from the Largest Battle Ever thing at Warhammer world. Which was excellent, and I am very much a fan of apocalypse rules. Turns out I didn't miss rolling bucketfuls of dice and the rules work really well. And using artillery or abilities that only need line of sight to shoot titans right across the room never gets old.

And afterwards, we were given a quick preview seminar for upcoming stuff. Supposedly it'll be on Warhammer community within the hour so I won't be exhaustive as I am very tired. Marines are getting a new codex rolling up all the post dex stuff plus some new things. Build your own chapter rules are back, will involve tradeoffs to get better at one thing to get worse at another. Chapter supplements are coming too, separate book which gives more rules so that, say, the raven guard get more than one character and one stratagem. Confirmed so far are ultramarines and white scars. Tigirus and Khan are primarised, so I imagine that trend will continue. New (primaris?) Troop transport, new amazing scout mech thing. Like a stripped down dreadnought with an uninjured pilot, it has a heavy bolter as a pistol and can infiltrate.

New kill team starter set, should be easier to actually find in stores?

Something big coming, "will affect every faction". Called Psychic Awakening. Zero clues given, though apparently the video might hold some on a rewatch? Consensus in the room is that it might be endless spells for 40k.

There might be more? But it might also be out by the time I post this:D

[9mm]

Just got back from the Largest Battle Ever thing at Warhammer world. Which was excellent, and I am very much a fan of apocalypse rules. Turns out I didn't miss rolling bucketfuls of dice and the rules work really well. And using artillery or abilities that only need line of sight to shoot titans right across the room never gets old.

And afterwards, we were given a quick preview seminar for upcoming stuff. Supposedly it'll be on Warhammer community within the hour so I won't be exhaustive as I am very tired. Marines are getting a new codex rolling up all the post dex stuff plus some new things. Build your own chapter rules are back, will involve tradeoffs to get better at one thing to get worse at another. Chapter supplements are coming too, separate book which gives more rules so that, say, the raven guard get more than one character and one stratagem. Confirmed so far are ultramarines and white scars. Tigirus and Khan are primarised, so I imagine that trend will continue. New (primaris?) Troop transport, new amazing scout mech thing. Like a stripped down dreadnought with an uninjured pilot, it has a heavy bolter as a pistol and can infiltrate.

New kill team starter set, should be easier to actually find in stores?

Something big coming, "will affect every faction". Called Psychic Awakening. Zero clues given, though apparently the video might hold some on a rewatch? Consensus in the room is that it might be endless spells for 40k.

There might be more? But it might also be out by the time I post this:D

Here's the Warhammer Community post

[Lord Torath]

So.... existing space marines can go through a process to become primaris marines? Is that what they mean by Marneus Calgar crossing the Rubicon Primaris?

And should I move this to the Fluff thread?

[9mm]

So.... existing space marines can go through a process to become primaris marines? Is that what they mean by Marneus Calgar crossing the Rubicon Primaris?

And should I move this to the Fluff thread?

yes, yes, and probably.

[Avaris]

Interesting things for Space Marines. The apparent return of customisable chapters is very welcome, though the codex supplements approach is interesting. I predict we’ll see one for each of the first founding chapters that don’t have their own codex, so Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard: I suspect they’ll have varying levels of popularity! A big question is price point versus level of chapter specific material... if these supplements are the same price as a small codex it’ll be a problem for many!

Also, new SM special rule giving them an extra attack on the first turn of combat. Not sure on usefulness, but seems flavourful.

[Razgriez]

Opinions on new Adeptus Astartes stuff:

+ Primaris finally get a dedicated transport that's not the Repulsor. Hopefully the points value will be fairly inexpensive
+ The new "Tactical Warsuit" (that's the lightly armored "Scout" walker based on the Dreadnought) is interesting and the "Heavy Bolter as a sidearm" is nice touch to the design
+ Vanguard Primaris as standalone box set
+ Kor'Sarro Khan's new model is a big improvement in my view over his old one, and Tigurius gets a model update for the first time in decades.
+ Custom Chapter rules returning. +1 attack on charges give some meat back into Close Combat units

-Really GW? Now we have to buy Codex Adeptus Astartes/Space Marines version 8.2?
--Come on really? Supplements for more chapters? Even as someone who's only Astartes force is Ultramarines, I'm not exactly excited about this. These better have some worthwhile stuff or this starts looking rather like a cash grab. Oh well, least there's always Kill Team still
- Without taking this too far into Lore debate territory, It was one thing when it was Calgar became Primaris. Now? Now this is just becoming cheesy in my opinion. I can't help but shake the feeling that Kor'Sarro being among the next two to get the Primaris Rubicon treatment is to basically tell players "Now shut up about him no longer having his bike, Moondraken. Because Primaris don't use bikes! (yet)". Also Tigurius' model could've be a bit lot better I think.
-- Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but this is also signalling to me that updating the classic Marines with new gear, units, and models really is not a thing, and current classic units will be slowly phased out. Just that hero units are generally not going to bother too many Astartes players if the other characters hold to same standard as Calgar, with no point increases for going Primaris

[Turalisj]

"Something in the warp affecting every faction"

Tau and Necrons getting killed off confirmed then.

[Cheesegear]

Finally, after a slew of board games designed to 'flood the market' quickly for spike profit and then fade out to non-existence, GW gives us what we actually want. Actual details about new Space Marines (as opposed to **** memes about Primaris Lieutenants seven months after the joke and intentionally blurring photos to ****tease your audience for the hype train);

• Primaris Tigurius looks ugly and awful. Why would GW ever bring back the back-banners? He again brings back the stupid leather gloves on top of his armour, which I hated with the Vanguard Librarian, and I'm even less impressed when it's on a Unique. Overall, he doesn't look any better than a Primaris Librarian with a Force Stave. I could've done that conversion in my sleep. But he's got a staff. But what if I cut the staff off my old Tigurius?
• Primaris Kor'sarro looks awesome. With the singular exception of the decapitated head in his hand. Ah well, that's something you could easily cut off. The leather glove on Kor'sarro, I can accept, because he's being all falconer and stuff.
• It's a worrying precedent though, that GW is simply going to redo their old range. It's fairly lazy and bad. Instead of getting us hyped for some new Primaris Character from the Age of Indomitus, GW is just trading off of nostalgia and getting us to buy characters we've heard of before, but, again. I guess since New GW's fluff is garbage, they wouldn't be able to come up with a new character as interesting as the ones who already exist.
• The only thing that the Invictor has going for it, is that it can Infiltrate. That said, it's only-slightly-less stupid than the Dreadknight. That much armour is totally pointless to have, if your pilot is exposed and your opponent has ranged weapons. This is definitely one of those models that I will end buying only if it's good and I see half a dozen net-lists run it. The model itself, has no appeal for me.
• GW's third Repulsor chasis. At least the Rhino chasis was only $50.
• Reiver Lieutenant is still ****. I hate those god-damned skull masks. The fact that it's still just a dude with a knife instead of at least a Power Sword, means that GW still has no intention of giving Primaris Marines a Melee unit worth anything. Here's hoping for Blood Angels and the inevitable Primaris Dante.
• Eliminators look...Fine.
• Infiltrators' helmets look awful. I'm fine with the backpacks. But, those helmets look too flat. But, even if exposed heads are available in the kit, I'll still use the helmets I hate because I hate Marines with exposed heads even more. At the very least, I can end up just using other helmets.
• **** me dead. Codex Supplements until we die. My guess is that they're going to cost as much as an Index or Chapter Approved, and GW can churn them out forever. Which is especially insulting 'cause I know for a fact that GW wrote Angels of Death just last edition which included options for every Chapter in the Codex in a single book. **** you, GW. Gotta gouge those Space Marine players. And if these were written about the time of Shadowspear (which they were), I know that all of them will be half-baked and anything remotely usable coming out of that many books written at the same time, will be an accident.
• Shock Assault would be nice...If Primaris Marines had any Melee units worth a damn. At least Grey Knights and Deathwatch will get it.
• Unfortunately, GW immediately goofs by also giving it to Chaos Marines, simply putting Space Marines back a step. If you want to give Space Marines something good, you can not give it to Chaos as well.
• Create-Your-Own Chapter is an awful idea. My guess is that either a) It's for Open Play only, or b) People quickly find whatever the best Traits and that's all that matters. Create-Your-Owns will also come with a significant downside in that you wont be able to use Uniques. So, whatever. Space Marines is the archetypal casual army, so I guess you gotta appeal to your base, right? Anyone who knows what they're doing will immediately break it, or ignore it. But it's not like that's new. Just...Insulting. 'Cause once again I know GW. One or two Traits will be good, everything else will be trash. But at least you have choices, right? If you have 10 options, but only one of them is good, did you even have a choice?
• Holy ****. GW tries to push a Space Wolves vs. T'au Kill Team box. I couldn't even imagine a worse box.
• Endless Spells for 40K? *headdesk* I'm very excited for GW to totally annihilate the fluff so that T'au and Necrons can play too.

[Blackhawk748]

This is all one hell of a mixed bag but constantly Primarising people doesn't feel good to me. As stated, it just means that they'll Chuck the nonPrimaris Marines abf that means people are gonna be out a crapload of money on top of Space Marines brings worse off army.

If Tau and Crons get psychic powers I am done with this setting.

Unless Tau get the Bears, that I'm ok with

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

It’d be ok if Crons get “not-psychic powers” like the Khorne prayers. Especially if it’s Crypteks that pop them off, because for the keepers of weird technology, the Crypteks really don’t have any anymore.

[LeSwordfish]

The Ethereals already have basically the same thing.

[LansXero]

Dont Necrons already have psychic powers of the C'tan though? it doesnt seem like too much of an stretch to derive endless spells from those. If T'au dont get the Nicassar, theirs would be like a more techy permanent thing (like fields or beams) i'd guess.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Endless spells are pretty great models too, I was thinking earlier that it'd be nice to have similar for 40k.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not personally a fan of the idea of endless spells or equivalent for 40k - psychery just doesnt work that way, as currently presented - but I could live with a rulebook full of really big psychic powers.

[PraetorDragoon]

I am looking forward to some Techno-Arcana of the Mechanicus.

[druid91]

I'm not personally a fan of the idea of endless spells or equivalent for 40k - psychery just doesnt work that way, as currently presented - but I could live with a rulebook full of really big psychic powers.

I mean endless spells specifically? Probably not. But big psychic powers that have their own models? Certainly. For example, a psychic wall you project ahead of your forces as cover, a psychic storm that rolls around the battlefield wrecking people.

As for those who don't use psychic powers, I could see other effects taking their place. Ancient Techno-Wonders of the Mechanicus, Specialized Earth-Caste Machinery, Etc, Etc.

[LansXero]

I mean endless spells specifically? Probably not. But big psychic powers that have their own models? Certainly. For example, a psychic wall you project ahead of your forces as cover, a psychic storm that rolls around the battlefield wrecking people.

As for those who don't use psychic powers, I could see other effects taking their place. Ancient Techno-Wonders of the Mechanicus, Specialized Earth-Caste Machinery, Etc, Etc.

The Tau already had that stuff mentioned in Damocles no? Like, mist and weather and seismic stuff

[Cheesegear]

Here's hoping that Codex: Space Marines 8.2 will feature Captain Acheran as a special character. I don't think they will.

On one hand, I did ask for new, original Characters (and Sicarius is canon-gone, and also t3h sux).
On the other hand, it would be pretty ****ty if non-Ultramarines didn't get access to Phobos Captains.

[LansXero]

Here's hoping that Codex: Space Marines 8.2 will feature Captain Acheran as a special character. I don't think they will.

On one hand, I did ask for new, original Characters (and Sicarius is canon-gone, and also t3h sux).
On the other hand, it would be pretty ****ty if non-Ultramarines didn't get access to Phobos Captains.

D'you know the Lord Discordant box makes a 'named character' called Vex Machinator? Got no statblock or anything, its the same as a Lord Discordant, but its also a 'new named character'. They could go that route and keep both things true,

On more important news, apparently GW is hellbent on destroying any goodwill they might've garnered during the lifetime of 8th edition. I really can only hope that when the time comes that the company goes under, whatever idiots they had in charge of pricing things get locked in a warehouse and the keys thrown into a river, so they dont pollute the industry any longer:

CODEX: SPACE MARINES (HB) (ENGLISH) $40.00

So thats a full priced codex, right? No 'this is a thin generic version, pay less' like the Knight Codex, and then:

CODEX: ULTRAMARINES (HB) (ENGLISH) $30.00
CODEX: WHITE SCARS (HB) (ENGLISH) $30.00

Why the $%&# are the new 'supplements' just as expensive as a Codex? What is it with Marine players that gives GW the idea that they can milk them dry and they wont even notice? Because Im sure people will tell me Im overcomplaining and the price is just fine.

And then, of course, they cant even bundle the Stratagems / Tactical Objectives from the supplements, no sir, go pay full price for the generics and then again if you want the flavored versions too:

DATACARDS: SPACE MARINES (ENGLISH) $15.00
DATACARDS: ULTRAMARINES (ENGLISH) $15.00
DATACARDS: WHITE SCARS (ENGLISH) $15.00

And a handful of new releases nobody here cares too much about:

ULTRAMARINES CHIEF LIBRARIAN TIGURIUS $40.00
WHITE SCAR PRIMARIS UPGRADES & TRANSFERS $25.00
WHITE SCARS KOR'SARRO KHAN $40.00

[Voidhawk]

Cheesegear, I've got to ask: what will your reaction be if/when they Primaris-ise Dorn, and the rules suck?

[Cheesegear]

CODEX: SPACE MARINES (HB) (ENGLISH) $40.00
WHITE SCARS KOR'SARRO KHAN $40.00

Check that out. One Infantry model costs the same as a Codex.

Cheesegear, I've got to ask: what will your reaction be if/when they Primaris-ise Dorn, and the rules suck?

Do you mean Lysander? 'Cause if Dorn comes back, the only thing I want is for him to be a raging Hulk with Chainswords-for-Hands.

Anyway, if you meant Lysander, well, I can tell you that his rules already suck. I don't know how GW could manage to make him worse.

[LansXero]

We've made some pretty cool Assassins out of heroclix models, correct size and all, because of the ridiculous GW prices. Our eversor-wolvering looks really great xD.

Meanwhile, a friend already got word that FW East is getting the new releases available by the end of August. Price hovers around 20ish, can go as low as under 20 with a large enough purchase. They are nice enough to tell me these things, you see, because they think stores can provide feedback to GW like 'your prices are becoming insane' and GW will care. Better not to let them know the truth. Also, ironically enough, FW East is my only source for GW bases that arent decorated right now, so Im probably placing an order this month. :'(

But the worse of it is that this feels like a cash grab. I sure hope the rules are pretty amazing, but there was no need to make it this way. Sure, have your 'generic vanilla' codex, but why not a full White Scar / Ultras codex? Whats the point of a merely 10$ cheaper supplement, that still needs the new book? Might as well make it a full codex and charge full price then its still one item. Its not even good at grabbing cash, because once the prices are this absurd its Battlescribe + 1d4chan time for sure.

[Avaris]

I suspect GW’s logic is that there is a large amount of fluff material for each chapter in their specific supplement. It’s not good logic. For the price being asked for you want at least half a dozen unique units per chapter, and I can’t see that happening. Maybe there’ll be a load of specialist detachments?

[9mm]

Why the $%&# are the new 'supplements' just as expensive as a Codex? What is it with Marine players that gives GW the idea that they can milk them dry and they wont even notice?

Because have you seen how much the Marine players whine at how bad their faction is? dudes are desperate to have free wins again.

(though to be fair, the Marine howling has nothing on the AoS Last Chance to Buy howling)


Looks like Chapter tactics are getting re-written. They finally will apply to everything! Also I'm away from book to check, but it looks like every Chapter specific strats are now just part of the tatics.

[Wraith]

I don't know how GW could manage to make [Lysander] worse.

Let's remember this statement, shall we? Let's remember it when the time comes....

I suspect GW’s logic is that there is a large amount of fluff material for each chapter in their specific supplement. It’s not good logic. For the price being asked for you want at least half a dozen unique units per chapter, and I can’t see that happening. Maybe there’ll be a load of specialist detachments?

This is probably the best case scenario. If we're really, really lucky we'll get a White Scars supplement that also includes rules for White Scars' successors, and their own unique characters/formations/characters to flesh it out a bit.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Supplement: Imperial Fists will include the rules for Crimson Fists and Black Templars, rather than having to buy an entire book to get the rules for Pedro Kantor or Crusader Squads, to at least try to approach something like value for money.

[Avaris]

Let's remember this statement, shall we? Let's remember it when the time comes....



This is probably the best case scenario. If we're really, really lucky we'll get a White Scars supplement that also includes rules for White Scars' successors, and their own unique characters/formations/characters to flesh it out a bit.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Supplement: Imperial Fists will include the rules for Crimson Fists and Black Templars, rather than having to buy an entire book to get the rules for Pedro Kantor or Crusader Squads, to at least try to approach something like value for money.

Notably, from today's preview, it looks like the chapter tactics for each chapter are in the main book. It looks like the model they're going with is 'it's possible to play any chapter out of the core book, but if you want to really specialise in one you want the supplement'. So I'd guess supplements will have special characters, chapter specific stratagems and wargear, formations etc. Not a bad model, but not convinced it's full codex price worth of material.

[Meatgrinder]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...page-post-1-2/
The new chapter tactics just got released, and it's buffs, buffs, buffs galore!

• CRIMSON FISTS: The tactic from the White Dwarf, but with two important changes. First, all <CRIMSON FISTS VEHICLES> count as 5 models. Second, unmodified 6's to hit with bolt weapons generate 2 hits.
• BLACK TEMPLARS: They get the improved "Reroll any of the dice when charging" rule, as well as a 5+ FNP against mortal wounds.
• IMPERIAL FISTS: Ignore cover and two hits with bolt weapons on unmodified 6's.
• ULTRAMARINES: No change, but they didn't really need one anyway.
• WHITE SCARS: You can advance on a turn when you fell back or advanced. <BIKERS> don't suffer penalties to shooting when they move or advance.
• RAVEN GUARD: Gain the benefit of cover when more than 12" away. Non-<VEHICLES> also get a -1 to hit when in terrain.
• SALAMANDERS: Their old tactic, and they also ignore AP-1.
• IRON HANDS: A 6+ FNP, overwatch on a 5+, and they count as having twice as many wounds on their damage tables.

On top of all this, all units in a Space Marine detachment gain these rules, not just <INFANTRY>,<BIKERS>, and <DREADNOUGHTS>.

[Adrastos42]

This is probably the best case scenario. If we're really, really lucky we'll get a White Scars supplement that also includes rules for White Scars' successors, and their own unique characters/formations/characters to flesh it out a bit.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Supplement: Imperial Fists will include the rules for Crimson Fists and Black Templars, rather than having to buy an entire book to get the rules for Pedro Kantor or Crusader Squads, to at least try to approach something like value for money.

Half-remembered quote from the preview weekend: "I doubt we'd do an Imperial Fists supplement without including Crimson Fists."

That was in response to a question about Crimson Fists, which hopefully is why Black Templars weren't mentioned.



Also, wow, when you're not riding the high of an all-day apocalypse battle the codex supplement plan sounds a bit less cool and a lot more expensive.

Oh and on psychic awakening and Tau and Necrons- this was queried, but the only answer was "Wait and see!"

[Cheesegear]

Half-remembered quote from the preview weekend: "I doubt we'd do an Imperial Fists supplement without including Crimson Fists."

Does that mean that there will be a separate Supplement for each, or does it mean that one Supplement will be cut in half to cater to two different Chapters in one book?

the codex supplement plan sounds a bit less cool and a lot more expensive.

As someone in ANZ, nothing is good until I know the cost.

this was queried, but the only answer was "Wait and see!"

a) We don't know, or
b) We can't tell you now, 'cause it will make you mad, or
c) Get on the hype train so we can drip feed you garbage.

There are no good reasons for not giving definitive answers to your own products.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh and on psychic awakening and Tau and Necrons- this was queried, but the only answer was "Wait and see!"

They only get to pull that if I trust them, and I don't.