Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[LansXero]

But he wasn't talking about dark reapers, he was talking about storm troopers and pask. We know reapers delete most things they look at.

Stormtroopers are pretty nasty in their new formation. Between the +to hit to overcharge safely and trigger extra shots on 5+ and the re-rolls, they can bring down scary stuff in one solid round of shooting. Which they may as well, since they arent surviving into next turn, and most likely neither is the valkyrie the rode to get there.

[9mm]

Stormtroopers are pretty nasty in their new formation. Between the +to hit to overcharge safely and trigger extra shots on 5+ and the re-rolls, they can bring down scary stuff in one solid round of shooting. Which they may as well, since they arent surviving into next turn, and most likely neither is the valkyrie the rode to get there.

Which is why you take 6 Valks

[Cheesegear]

For some reason, Intercessor Sergeants can take Thunder Hammers now. Interesting idea. But like all 'casual traps for noobs', it wont actually solve anything.

[9mm]

For some reason, Intercessor Sergeants can take Thunder Hammers now. Interesting idea. But like all 'casual traps for noobs', it wont actually solve anything.

So whats the bet for which Chapter's upgrade kit led to that?

I'm thinking Salamanders.

[Wraith]

I am hoping both that it is, and is not, the Iron Hands.

Is because God knows they've needed something for about 3 editions or so; but not because it's clearly stupid and will kill them before they're even out of the gate.

[LeSwordfish]

I am hoping both that it is, and is not, the Iron Hands.

Is because God knows they've needed something for about 3 editions or so; but not because it's clearly stupid and will kill them before they're even out of the gate.

I reckon there's a good chance it's the Iron Hands: given that primaris techmarine (special character?) that was shown, I'd put money on them being the next chapter. Why would it kill them, though? You don't have to use all the special parts.

[Blackhawk748]

I reckon there's a good chance it's the Iron Hands: given that primaris techmarine (special character?) that was shown, I'd put money on them being the next chapter. Why would it kill them, though? You don't have to use all the special parts.

Probably because they would wind up making strategems for melee Iron Hands or other such nonsense and then make the casuals think that's how they should be played (its not, they play Armored Fist) and then said casuals get pissed when it doesn't work and demand changes which probably don't happen.

Basically, it would be wasted page space that could be taken up by decent stuff.

[Renegade Paladin]

Talk to me when it's a regular thing.

First I'd have to see them on the regular. This happened in a Grand Tournament; I don't see those people every week.

[Cheesegear]

So, all 19 Create Your Owns are also known by this point...

Pick a real Chapter Tactic (not Crimson Fists or Black Templars); This is for people who want to play a 1st Founding Chapter, but for some reason don't want access to the Keywords, and don't want access Uniques for some reason.
...This did not need to be here. When GW says 'OMG 19 to choose from!', and one of them is 'Pick a real one'...Your advertising is bollocks.

Re-roll 1 to hit when using Bolt weapons; Decent choice for Scout Battalions. But there are **** loads of models in a 'real' Space Marine Detachment that wont benefit at all from this.

<Characters> can Heroic Intervene 6"; Wasted page space.

Unmodified 6s to hit in the Fight phase vs. <Infantry> and <Bikers> automatically wound; This one looks pretty good on paper since it's free dice rolls. But, this Tactic will only make models with standard S4 attacks slightly better. Dunno. Math-hammer will say how useful this one is. But since it's designed around putting Codex Marines into Melee, it's probably not that good. Can not be combined with the last one.

Enemy units within 3" of your models have -1 Ld; Generally only useful for comboing out for gimmick lists.

+1 to Advance and Charge rolls; Decent.

+3" to all ranged weapons; Apparently this works on Flamer-type weapons as well, giving them an 11" range. Surely there's a gimmick build here coming out of Drop Pods. But, since Flamers only have D6 hits in 8th Ed. (instead of 7-9 in <8th) and AP-, the gimmick is probably less good. Lets Intercessors out-range Fire Warriors, if that matters.

Pick one: <Aeldari>, <Heretic Astartes>, <Orks>, <Necrons>, <T'au> or <Tyranids>. Re-roll to hit in the Fight phase during the first turn of combat; This will run riot in the casual meta where you can change your Chapter Tactics pretty much every time you play a new opponent. This one is very abusable. However, the top Codecies at the moment are Guard and Chaos Daemons, and they're exempt from Preferred Enemy, so the people running the best Codecies in the game right now, wont care what you do.

Lose the -1 to hit on Assault weapons when you Advance; Again, this is a Tactic that will only benefit a fraction of the units you'll actually want to take. So that doesn't make it very good.

In the Fight phase, unmodified 6s to hit in the first turn of combat, cause additional hits. Does not combine with the other one.

(Black Templars) Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+). This is very handy when your opponent is playing mono-Thousand Sons and outputting ~30 Mortal Wounds per turn. Other than that...Whatever.

(Blood Ravens) <Psykers> can re-roll 1s when Manifesting or Denying. Sweet Chapter Tactic that almost no models benefit from. Rad.

(Blood Ravens) Unmodified 2s to wound, also fail to wound your models. Garbage then, garbage now.

(Dark Angels) Lose only 1 model to Morale tests; Has never been very useful 'cause Marines rarely take units over 5 models strong.

(Iron Hands) Degrading Vehicles count as having double the wounds they have; Some people are theorising that Razorspam is coming back. I, personally, don't believe 'more than three' Razorbacks are coming back. But we'll see. Just like 'more than three' Drop Pods probably isn't coming back, either.

(Raven Guard) You count as being in Cover when more than 12" away from a firing unit; With Bolter Discipline on deck, this is pretty good.

(Salamanders) A unit can re-roll a single to hit, and a single to wound each time it attacks. As in the 8.1 Codex, Primaris Marines found this Tactic garbage because all their weapons were the same. Having pocket re-rolls is vastly superior on units individual models with individual wargear. Maybe this is why Intercessor Sergeants are getting Thunder Hammers? Whatever.

(Ultramarines) +1 Leadership.

(White Scars) Fall Back and Charge in the same turn. With GW introducing Shock Assault to the table, if you're willing to hand your opponents free Overwatches every turn, this is pretty good, especially when combined with other Fight phase Tactics.


Shockingly, on the 'They'll be totally broken or you'll ignore it.' front, I am pleasantly surprised that I will not be bothering to create my own Chapter. Almost all of the ones I'd actually consider taking, are for Melee. But, fact is, in Codex Marines, you're still hamstrung by the units that you've got to choose from. And with the exception of like...Vanguard and...Well...That's it...Marines don't even have any Melee units that are even worth anything. Shock Assault changes things slightly. But the announcement is that all Astartes Codecies will benefit from Shock Assault, which means Space Wolves and Blood Angels are still 'the Melee Chapters', and anything you make out of Codex Marines will be a piss-poor imitation.

At some point very soon after release, I'll try 'Be in Cover' and 'Vehicles have Double Wounds', but if that doesn't work like gangbusters (and for me, that means 'Wins at least 50% of the time), then I'll happily go back to using a real Chapter and complaining more about GW giving you a whole lot of choices, but none of them meaning anything.

[Avaris]

So, all 19 Create Your Owns are also known by this point...

Pick a real Chapter Tactic (not Crimson Fists or Black Templars); This is for people who want to play a 1st Founding Chapter, but for some reason don't want access to the Keywords, and don't want access Uniques for some reason.
...This did not need to be here. When GW says 'OMG 19 to choose from!', and one of them is 'Pick a real one'...Your advertising is bollocks.

This is going to cause arguments, dependent on the text for the unique strategems that appear in the codex supplements. Ideally it’d have a rule saying something like ‘the stratagems and unique units in this supplement can be used by <Chapter> or a custom chapter using Inheritors of the Primarch’, but I doubt GW thought of that. So the existence of this rule will mean people think that ‘I can only use the Ultramarines rules if I’m painted as Ultramarines’, or enforcing this on their opponents, which is bad.

Really what the custom chapters need is the ability to also gain unique stratagems and relics, perhaps something saying like ‘pick 5 stratagems and 5 relics that are otherwise tied to a specific chapter. You may use them.’ But I suspect that would be broken in a ‘pick the 5 best’ kind of way. But right now going custom means you lose a lot of flexibility.

Re-roll 1 to hit when using Bolt weapons; Decent choice for Scout Battalions. But there are **** loads of models in a 'real' Space Marine Detachment that wont benefit at all from this.

Quite like this one: it’s not unmodified rolls of 1, so supports rapid advances using the assault 3 boltrifles intercessors can get, or moving around with heavy bolters. Not ideal sure, but could be some interesting builds there.

Pick one: <Aeldari>, <Heretic Astartes>, <Orks>, <Necrons>, <T'au> or <Tyranids>. Re-roll to hit in the Fight phase during the first turn of combat; This will run riot in the casual meta where you can change your Chapter Tactics pretty much every time you play a new opponent. This one is very abusable. However, the top Codecies at the moment are Guard and Chaos Daemons, and they're exempt from Preferred Enemy, so the people running the best Codecies in the game right now, wont care what you do.

Not sure many casuals will think of that tbh: choices like this get made and stuck with regardless of opponent. Switching tactics based on who you’re fighting feels very metagamey, which a lot of casuals won’t want.

[LeSwordfish]

Probably because they would wind up making strategems for melee Iron Hands or other such nonsense and then make the casuals think that's how they should be played (its not, they play Armored Fist) and then said casuals get pissed when it doesn't work and demand changes which probably don't happen.

Basically, it would be wasted page space that could be taken up by decent stuff.

What baseless pessimism. "If we give them a melee weapon then OBVIOUSLY they'll make them a melee army and those stupid casual players will play them that way and then those casuals will complain about things being bad and that will be bad because of, uh, the opportunity cost."

[Turalisj]

At least now you can make Reasonable Marines.

[Wraith]

What baseless pessimism. "If we give them a melee weapon then OBVIOUSLY they'll make them a melee army and those stupid casual players will play them that way and then those casuals will complain about things being bad and that will be bad because of, uh, the opportunity cost."

Pessimistic, yes - but baseless? I'm not so sure.

I've lost count of the number of times GW have released a boxed set of models and we've looked at it's contents incredulously (Forgebane - an 8th Edition starter box with Necrons?) or the times that they have released a Codex to great fanfare only for it to be so badly written as to be immediately disregarded?

Hell, one of those was Clan Raukaan - the book about the Iron Hands which didn't include any new units to be used by the Iron Hands. That's pretty strong precedent, if our suspicions are true!

[Cheesegear]

have released a Codex to great fanfare only for it to be so badly written as to be immediately disregarded?

Eyyy...Space Wolves! Spam Wulfen or go home.


As LansXero totally correctly coined, 'casual trap for noobs'. Those things that look good - made all the worse with New GW and bad WC articles - where, someone who doesn't know what they're looking at goes "Oh cool!" buys it, puts it together, paints it, puts it on the table...And gets rolled.

It's the 'Land Raider problem' all over again. Where someone thinks a Land Raider will be totally awesome because look how big it is! Then on Turn 1 your opponent comes down in Drop Pods, fires 6 Meltaguns at it, and it's gone. Thankfully, that doesn't happen in 8th Ed., as Land Raiders are a bit tougher than they used to be, and forcing your opponent 9" away means they're not rolling double Damage from the start.

Which, while I don't want to speak for Blackhawk, I'm looking at Thunder Hammers on Intercessor Sergeants and...Just what do you think that's gonna do?

It reminds me of Terminators - specifically, Chaos ones. You outfit them with the scariest weapons you can think of...You Deep Strike in on Turn 2 (which is too slow), and then you fail the Charge and yeah. Cool beans. That's 300 Points and change down the drain. No-one is saying Chaos Terminators don't look cool. They just don't do what they say on the tin. Which is my way of saying what Lans said.


Speaking of Thunder Hammers...Apparently <Character>'s Jump Packs and Thunder Hammer points costs are going up significantly.

[Wraith]

Eyyy...Space Wolves! Spam Wulfen or go home.

Case in point - I was going to use Orks and their Morkanauts/Gorkanauts as my example of highly anticipated but then easily forgettable Codices because I had completely forgotten that Space Wolves had come out.

'casual trap for noobs'.

Next thread title?

Which, while I don't want to speak for Blackhawk, I'm looking at Thunder Hammers on Intercessor Sergeants and...Just what do you think that's gonna do?

Don't get me wrong- I'm all for things that look cool but aren't optimal - I play Black Templars, after all - the problem is that sort of thing can't be advertised as such and so gets misinterpreted.

I've often felt that more of GW's games need the same disclaimer that they gave to Blood Bowl: "Yes, some of these teams are really bad and really hard to play. It's intentional so that you can decide how much of a challenge you want, and if you don't like it, play as something else". Or words to that effect, at least. Not expressly warning people away from buying stuff, but just to give them a fighting chance and knowing what to expect.
"On a scale of 1-5, Necrons are a '5' difficulty to play to a high standard. You can tell because we printed 5 red skulls on the front of their starter box, whereas Space Marines have 3 yellow skulls in comparison", sort of thing.

Speaking of Thunder Hammers...Apparently <Character>'s Jump Packs and Thunder Hammer points costs are going up significantly.

Sounds like they're starting to get tired of seeing Smash-Captain around. It'll take more than that to kill him off, but it's a start I guess.

[Forum Explorer]

Eyyy...Space Wolves! Spam Wulfen or go home.

The thing is, Space Wolves aren't bad. They just can't compete with Blood Angels because +1 to hit is not even close to how amazing +1 to wound is. That alone would almost always makes Blood Angels better. The fact that they have multiple ways to get first turn charges just cinches the deal.

[Cheesegear]

Next thread title?

I mean, it's up there. But it's competing with LansXero's other candidate:
toy soldiers r srs bsns

All lower case bothers me, but that's part it.

Don't get me wrong- I'm all for things that look cool but aren't optimal - I play Black Templars, after all - the problem is that sort of thing can't be advertised as such and so gets misinterpreted.

Thing is, Black Templars aren't exactly bad. To me, they play like 'Win on Turn 2, or Lose on Turn 3.' I very much enjoyed putting three squads of Vanguard in Reserve and coming down on Turn 2 and re-rolling my Charges...Which gets even better in 8.2 because Black Templars no longer have to re-roll both dice. Black Templars aren't bad. What's bad, is Crusader Squads. The problem, being the casual trap for noobs, is that people see Black Templars, and what they read is 'Crusader Squads'. If Crusader Squads are bad, does that mean Black Templars are bad?
...Not at all.

The other issue being, basically what Forum Explorer said. Black Templars aren't even Space Wolves, let alone Blood Angels.

"On a scale of 1-5, Necrons are a '5' difficulty to play to a high standard.

Necrons aren't hard. Don't you just run an Outrider of 18 Destroyers and 12 Wraiths?

It'll take more than that to kill him off, but it's a start I guess.

Storm Bolter, Power Fist, Sanctic Halo.

[Wraith]

The other issue being, basically what Forum Explorer said. Black Templars aren't even Space Wolves, let alone Blood Angels.

You got what I meant, I think. I play BT's because I love their baroque iconography and the extra details of chains around their fists and such, but I'll freely admit that if I wanted to play a strong Astartes faction then they're not in the top 3, probably not even top 5.

Necrons aren't hard. Don't you just run an Outrider of 18 Destroyers and 12 Wraiths?

This is why such a rating doesn't work as well in 40k. We can go through all of the codices and find *A* build that is stupid and works really well at some point, so calling any codex better/worse than another comes down to knowing what that specific build is, and which factions have more than one of them.

Some of them should be fairly obvious though, even if we didn't have something as specific as a 1-5 scale. Abstract it to red/yellow/green or something if you didn't want something as blatant as a beginner/intermediate/expert label, but I feel that we could arrive at SOMETHING fairly informative quite easily, if we wanted to.

Storm Bolter, Power Fist, Sanctic Halo.

A small start, naturally. No one ever expected anything else even from new GW.

[Cheesegear]

You got what I meant, I think. I play BT's because I love their baroque iconography...

Me too! However, what've you failed to say, is that you like Black Templars because you like Crusader Squads.

This is why such a rating doesn't work as well in 40k. We can go through all of the codices and find *A* build that is stupid and works really well at some point...

The problem is that you can talk to someone about Necrons, and exclusively bring up Wraiths and Destroyers. Someone who...Isn't competitive, might ask you about Troops.
...What Troops? Necrons have Troops?

Turns out that's how you play Grey Knights, too. For a long time I thought Grey Knights were trash tier 'cause I kept trying to make Battalions. Turns out, don't even bother. Like Necrons, they have only one or two Stratagems worth using, and both of them happen on Turns 1 and 2. So, I dunno? If you have more than...3 CPs...You have too many. In the same vein as "What are Guard gonna do with 18 CPs?", you've got "What are Necrons (or Grey Knights) gonna do with six!?"

EDIT:

Spoiler: Good Enough for Government Work

Show

Catachan, Battalion
Emperor's Wrath

(W) Company Commander; Shotgun, Chainsword, Grand Strategist - 30 Points
Company Commander; Shotgun, Chainsword, Agripnaa-Class Orbital Tracker - 30 Points

Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points
Infantry Squad - 40 Points

Wyvern; Heavy Bolter - 108 Points
Basilisk; Heavy Bolter - 103 Points

Black Templars, Vanguard
Sword Brethren

High Marshal Helbrecht - 150 Points
Chaplain Grimaldus - 90 Points

Company Veterans (x5); Power Axes (x5), Storm Shields (x5) - 105 Points
Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs (x10); Thunder Hammers (x8), Storm Shields (x8) - 314 Points
Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs (x10); Thunder Hammers (x8), Storm Shields (x8) - 314 Points

Drop Pod; Storm Bolter - 65 Points

Krast, SHAD
Knight Crusader; Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon - 452 Points

Reinforcements - 85 Points

Total: 1966 Points

There's room in the Drop Pod for 3 Cenobytes, if they matter.

[Wraith]

Me too! However, what've you failed to say, is that you like Black Templars because you like Crusader Squads.

Chaplains, as it happens. I got into Black Templars back in 4th, when you could take a Chaplain with a crozius, an additional weapon, Terminator Honours and a Jump Pack and watch him do a reasonable impression of a flying wrecking ball.

That, and the Chaplain in Terminator Armour model came out at that time which really sealed it for me.

Not so much of a thing nowadays, where it's less Chaplains in general and more about Grimaldus specifically, but the Sword Brethren models still stand up, too.

[Cheesegear]

Chaplains, as it happens. I got into Black Templars back in 4th...

I think we all had Black Templars in 4th Ed.

Not so much of a thing nowadays, where it's less Chaplains in general and more about Grimaldus specifically, but the Sword Brethren models still stand up, too.

Not exactly. Grimaldus is for when you're with Crusader Squads and you're rolling those 6s for extra attacks, and Chainswords give even more attacks. Like, that's how you do it. The problem is that Crusader Squads can't get anywhere, and unlike Orks - or even Grey Knights - there's no Jump or Gate to get them across the board. Like I said, I've got several black-painted Drop Pods ready to go. So maybe Crusader Squads make a new appearance in my lists in 8.2.

Meanwhile, when you're dealing with Vanguard with Thunder Hammers, you're taking that -1 to hit, so you can't ever roll 6s to hit, so what's even the point of him over a normal Chaplain? The Plasma Pistol!? I'm sure you know how I feel about Pistols.

EDIT:
That being said, I realise that I put Grimaldus in my above list 'cause I'm stupid.

[Wraith]

The problem is that Crusader Squads can't get anywhere, and unlike Orks - or even Grey Knights - there's no Jump or Gate to get them across the board.

I miss the days of BT's being able to take Land Raider Crusaders as Dedicated Transports. It was really dumb, but it was fun and I think there's a niche for that in 8th edition.

[Cheesegear]

I miss the days of BT's being able to take Land Raider Crusaders as Dedicated Transports...

I miss Falling Forwards when failing a Morale test.

[Hootman]

I miss Falling Forwards when failing a Morale test.

Aw man, that was a good time. Start of a game vs Nids; they have psychic bugs? Run at them Turn 0. Get shot on Turn 1? RUN AT THEM SOME MORE.

That was back when I had those brassy Cyclone Terminators and a bunch of counts-as Neophytes kicking around. No idea what I used for their models.

[Blackhawk748]

What baseless pessimism. "If we give them a melee weapon then OBVIOUSLY they'll make them a melee army and those stupid casual players will play them that way and then those casuals will complain about things being bad and that will be bad because of, uh, the opportunity cost."

You asked, I answered, and as others have said, this isn't baseless. Seriously, why would a Sergant use a Thunder Hammer? Its expensive and the rest of his unit doens't belong in melee, so why would you offer it? Just take the Chainsword.

Hell, one of those was Clan Raukaan - the book about the Iron Hands which didn't include any new units to be used by the Iron Hands. That's pretty strong precedent, if our suspicions are true!

Thank you, this is more or less what I was thinking of, that and how my Orks were treated for 3 editions. And Sisters.

Which, while I don't want to speak for Blackhawk, I'm looking at Thunder Hammers on Intercessor Sergeants and...Just what do you think that's gonna do?

This was also what I was thinking. they already have Power Fists (at least I hope they do) and noone takes that, so what do they need the Hammer for? For those times when they get into a fight with a Dreadnaught and don't die immediately?

It reminds me of Terminators - specifically, Chaos ones. You outfit them with the scariest weapons you can think of...You Deep Strike in on Turn 2 (which is too slow), and then you fail the Charge and yeah. Cool beans. That's 300 Points and change down the drain. No-one is saying Chaos Terminators don't look cool. They just don't do what they say on the tin. Which is my way of saying what Lans said.

Yup, love my Termis in HoR Kill Team (being Nurgle is nice too) where they are terrifying murder machines. Base 40k? I'd be more likely to run Vespid

[LansXero]

You dont need to be a casual to think like one. Casual games are messy afairs where people dont shoot at whats most dangerous, but at whats closer / seems like a good idea at the time. They are also games where things get into charging distance ALL THE TIME because people deploy very badly and the concept of a 'firing lane' is alien to them. Thats why many rules are built around this frantic brawl nobody here is pretty familiar with, because its a horribly bad way of playing the game. A casual move, for example, is moving Sv. 6+ units into cover even if they have a 5++, because then they also have a 5+ :D.

So, in these frantic melees, overkitted heroes (like Captains without a jumpack but with both an special pistol AND a melee weapon) shine because they can both get a kill in the shooting phase AND charge into something. Few vehicles / non melee units can shake off a 4++ melee model, so it feels cool, right? the hero making the clutch play of tying up a leman russ. So now you can do that with your intercessors too! No more need to be afraid by deepstriking buillies tying up your... gunline of bolters? No more getting stuck wounding predators on 6s. Now you can bash heads with the best of them, and if that pesky Daemon Prince charges you again, he'll see whats what when he finds out!

Of course, he found out when he read your list, and smite'd your unit off the board in between the chuckles, but thats just what filthy powergamers do, they suck the fun out of everything.

[druid91]

Is it just me, or does trying to WYSIWYG your Necromunda gang seem like an excercise in futility? With equipment upgrades around every corner, weapons I can't even imagine trying to fit on a Necromunda mini. (Lascannons for example.) It just seems like the goal is more to get a bunch of cool distinctive models, then you explain who's who and who has what with the cards.

[LansXero]

Is it just me, or does trying to WYSIWYG your Necromunda gang seem like an excercise in futility? With equipment upgrades around every corner, weapons I can't even imagine trying to fit on a Necromunda mini. (Lascannons for example.) It just seems like the goal is more to get a bunch of cool distinctive models, then you explain who's who and who has what with the cards.

One of our friends printed little pictures of them and put them on the backs of the cards. He also painted their hair all different colors, so its easier to point them that way.

[Ogremindes]

One of our friends printed little pictures of them and put them on the backs of the cards. He also painted their hair all different colors, so its easier to point them that way.

That's easier with some gangs than others, eh?

[The Patterner]

You dont need to be a casual to think like one. Casual games are messy afairs where people dont shoot at whats most dangerous, but at whats closer / seems like a good idea at the time. They are also games where things get into charging distance ALL THE TIME because people deploy very badly and the concept of a 'firing lane' is alien to them. Thats why many rules are built around this frantic brawl nobody here is pretty familiar with, because its a horribly bad way of playing the game. A casual move, for example, is moving Sv. 6+ units into cover even if they have a 5++, because then they also have a 5+ :D.

So, in these frantic melees, overkitted heroes (like Captains without a jumpack but with both an special pistol AND a melee weapon) shine because they can both get a kill in the shooting phase AND charge into something. Few vehicles / non melee units can shake off a 4++ melee model, so it feels cool, right? the hero making the clutch play of tying up a leman russ. So now you can do that with your intercessors too! No more need to be afraid by deepstriking buillies tying up your... gunline of bolters? No more getting stuck wounding predators on 6s. Now you can bash heads with the best of them, and if that pesky Daemon Prince charges you again, he'll see whats what when he finds out!

Of course, he found out when he read your list, and smite'd your unit off the board in between the chuckles, but thats just what filthy powergamers do, they suck the fun out of everything.

I feels like it should exist some middle ground between this and the Australian/Peruvian death battle meta were you get 'taken care of' if you dare taking the second best option?