Results 31 to 40 of 40
-
2019-05-31, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Malsheem, Nessus
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
It's fine, a lot of people jump into D&D as new players without knowing much of the underlying lore, trusting the DM to handle it for them.
And then frequently complain about D&D lore being bad or shallow or whatever and want to change or remove it without actually reading any of it, but that's a separate issue.
Sure, Healing has a Necromantic "effect" but doesn't draw upon the Positive Elemental Plane (Inflict doesn't need the Negative Elemental Plane) to work, since the "power" for the spell comes from the Deity directly. (This was why Good Deities could grant Inflict - and Evil Deities could Heal). Same for Turn/Rebuke Undead.
Spontaneous healing/inflicting and turning/rebuking were divided by moral alignment not because of any inherent associations, but because Good clerics tend toward defensive/protective spells while Evil ones tend toward offensive/harmful spells. Good gods can want their clerics to destroy their enemies and Evil gods can want their champions healed to tip-top shape with no alignment issues whatsoever.
-
2019-06-01, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
I did do more studying than a lot of the others (even those playing Mages) but, (A) I can't always remember everything, and (B) getting all the books (even PDFs) is really hard.
Your posting the AdD rules on it was appreciated.
Remember, positive and negative energy are not Good- or Evil-aligned, anymore than being alive is Good or entropy is Evil. The idea that negative energy = Evil is a retcon by some of the 3e designers, who made mindless undead Evil (when they, being mindless, should be True Neutral like every other Mindless creature) and moved healing from Necromancy to Conjuration because "necromancy is icky and icky stuff is evil."
Both were totally boring to me, since there wasn't anything of use (ok, Plane Shifting into the Positive Plane for quick non-divine healing was cool. And using that spell to "banish" a non-undead to the Negative Plane for a nearly guaranteed death, could be awesome) or interest on either.
All hail the Satanic Panic.
And since Healing was usually considered "Good", they got it away from the icky school.
Spontaneous healing/inflicting and turning/rebuking were divided by moral alignment not because of any inherent associations, but because Good clerics tend toward defensive/protective spells while Evil ones tend toward offensive/harmful spells.
(1) Good gods can want their clerics to destroy their enemies and Evil gods can want their champions healed to tip-top shape with no alignment issues whatsoever.
So, no real arguments from me, here.
***
Sorry that I derailed the thread.Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-01 at 01:24 AM.
-
2019-06-02, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
There are a couple of factors missing from your calculations.
1) I've already moved all spells with a casting time greater than one into a separate ritual system
2) I've consolidated reversible spells and I eliminated the animal buffs, stripping Transmutation of a lot it's false variety.
That said, you still make some good points. I've already consolidated Force and Telekinesis spells into Evocation, making it one of the more robust schools.
Let's look at the Creation sub-school.
Acid Arrow
Acid Fog
Acid Splash
Black Tentacles
Fog Cloud
Faithful Hound
Glitterdust
Grease
Incendiary Cloud
Magnificient Mansion
Obscuring Mist
Phase Door
Sleet Storm
Solid Fog
Stinking Cloud
Unseen Servant
Web
To prevent Evocation from getting too powerful with this shuffle, I'd keep the Weather spells as well as the Summoning type spells (Black Tentacles, Faithful Hound, Unseen Servant) and Phase Door in Conjuration.
If I move Acid Splash to Evocation, then I'd drop Unseen Servant back to a Cantrip and eliminate Mage Hand and Open/Close from Evocation.
Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick are Extra-Dimensional spells, but if I eliminate the Shelter spells from Conjuration than I can bring Tiny Hut back into Evocation as the only reason I eliminated it was that it is a Force Spell and a Shelter Spell.
Acid Fog could be eliminated because Acid and Weather are now explicitly in separate schools.
Maze will have to be eliminated because it is both Extra-Dimensional and Force.
Gust of Wind and Lightning would be moved from Evocation to Conjuration because they are Weather themed.
This would still make Conjuration less robust and more tightly themed and doesn't overload Evocation too much.
I could then move Dimension Door, Teleport and Greater Teleport from Transmutation to Conjuration and eliminate Teleport Object and Refuge as they are too weak for their levels anyway.
I would then move Sequester from Abjuration to Transformation (using the Bestow Curse/Remove Curse logic AND looking at it as a lesser Temporal Stasis). This keeps Transmutation a little more robust.
I could then move Sonic spells (Shatter, Shout and Greater Shout) from Evocation to Illusion. This would enhance Illusion's power to effect the world and still keep it on theme of light and sound.
I would then have to eliminate Wail of the Banshee as it is both Death and Sonic.
These changes would make Illusion the most robust school, albeit without many powerful spells, and Transmutation one of the least robust schools, but with most of the powerful spells.
I appreciate your input.
Would it be worthwhile if I updated the first page of this thread with all of the changes?
-
2019-06-02, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Location
- Baator (aka Britain)
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
Where would Mage Hand and Open/Close go to if they weren't Evocation? You've already said that telekinesis is evocation, after all, so you're in danger of violating your own rules, simply to maintain an arbitrary number of spells in each school.
-
2019-06-02, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
I'd eliminate them as spells. If Unseen Servant is a Cantrip, and it covers much the same ground as Mage Hand and Open/Close then we won't need them as Cantrips. And we can't relevel them lower 0th.
Do you have any Conjuration Cantrips that you would prefer I add instead?
-
2019-06-02, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
The Old Cantrips:
Hide and Present?
These can seem to be Illusion, but their description states that the item is transported to/from a location.
Which seems more Conjuration.
Willow's "Pig disappearing trick" might be the Hide Cantrip memorized at a higher level
(5e = used with a Spell Slot), in order to affect a living creature?Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-02 at 03:44 PM.
-
2019-06-02, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
The old Hide Cantrip I'm familiar with just makes something Invisible for awhile. Present is more of a limited Dimension Door so that might work
-
2019-06-02, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
Sigh.
Managed to googlefu Hide, and you're correct. It's an Illusion. Causes the item to be hidden behind a 2D "invisibile" barrier.
Maybe the "reverse" of Present was just Homebrew?
Edit: To my mind, Palm (actually turns the item Invisible for a few seconds) should have been the reverse of Present since two Illusions that caused an item to "be hidden by an Illusonary effect" was not needed.
Any agreements, or it just me?Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-04 at 03:39 PM.
-
2019-06-03, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Malsheem, Nessus
- Gender
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
Ah, by "special category" I thought you meant something like a universal spell list that every class could access, so they'd still be spells with schools and such, not a separate casting system. In that case, number of spells per school isn't as important, but then you were focusing on core spells so it wasn't a huge deal anyway.
To prevent Evocation from getting too powerful with this shuffle, I'd keep the Weather spells as well as the Summoning type spells (Black Tentacles, Faithful Hound, Unseen Servant) and Phase Door in Conjuration.
Maze will have to be eliminated because it is both Extra-Dimensional and Force.
I would then have to eliminate Wail of the Banshee as it is both Death and Sonic.
Would it be worthwhile if I updated the first page of this thread with all of the changes?
-
2019-06-09, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
Re: Retooling the Wizard / Sorceror List
The Spell List is updated.
Let me know what you think.