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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Holy onomatopoeia, Bananaman!
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Holy onomatopoeia, Bananaman!
    It looks more like Anarchic onomatopoeia, Dragon Wonder(ing). To the Musa-mobile! Sorry, I'm no Oracle. Of course, I'm no Nightwing either...and Nightcrawler is right out.
    Feytouched Banana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.

    I mean, it's just not fair for someone with arms to pick on someone who doesn't have any. It's wrong to attack the unarmed like that.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I thought it was a play on "Foil your evil scheme", except worms squirm to move.
    I parsed it as portmanteauing 'scheme, worm' to 'sch-worm' to squirm.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    You might want to do what I did last weekend, and reread the Book 6 strips.

    And the vampires don't need Gate, as they can just use Plane Shift.
    Yeah, that's what I meant when I said "I don't know if that's the spell they need and I'm not going to research it right now, but I'm confident there is one."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

    But in reality they will simply die like everything else, and Hel hasn’t bothered to tell them, and they haven’t had time to figure it out.
    Setting aside what Fyraltari said-- I don't think there's any reason to think this. It benefits Hel to have a bunch of loyal, high(er-than-1)-level vampire clerics to let loose on the new world, so why wouldn't she help them Plane Shift over if at all possible?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Rephrase my question as "What domain did he have that allowed him to cast Horrid Wilting" then. As far as I know, the spell needs to be on your list to cast it from a scroll, and it was mentionned earlier that you need the proper domain for it to be considered on your spell list.
    To pit nits thoroughly across the line, OG Gontor need not have been able to activate the scroll to match the evidence we have. He was only carrying the scroll as far as we know. And he was a random NPC at the time — totally in character to have random loot that he couldn’t use.
    ~Xel

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's a bit of a stretch. Maybe he just has friends in high places.
    Or, as some paladin/monks, thinks too highly of himself...
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NihhusHuotAliro View Post
    Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.
    Well, if he didn't wanna get slashed and stabbed, why did he attack the heroes?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    Personally I don't care for such Power of Love tropes, but from reading the author's comments on it, there were some particulars in this one, and the Giant suggested it would be difficult to impossible for another trapped soul to pull off the same thing. I am not sure if we got another answer as to what would happen if another spirit spammed all their memory at their host at once.
    I was under the impression that Durkon discovered that the vampire had a flaw: He Wanted To Know. He wanted to understand why the living do the things they do. Maybe it was because he was a newly-created dwarf spirit who was Intelligence-smart, even Wisdom-capable but inexperienced and wanted to learn everything about the world he could the way all newborns do. Maybe it was so that he could trick the living better so as to feed off of and control them. Or maybe he was just telling himself that last one. Whatever his motivations were, it was undoubtedly an important part of his character. We often saw him going through Durkon's memories trying to figure them out. We even saw the effect through Nale and Zz'ditri's eyes when he thinks for a moment and calls them, "The same old d***s!" Looking back we know that he was going through Durkon's memory of them.

    That Wanting to Know is what Durkon exploited. He let him know too much too fast too soon. Durkon wasn't engaging in any 'battle of wills' or 'power of emotions.' It was vampire-spirit vs. Static Chunk Of Way Too Much Data and the vampire spirit got overwhelmed taking it in.

    Stone Boy Vampire doesn't necessarily Want To Know. He's a little more goal oriented.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Well, if he didn't wanna get slashed and stabbed, why did he attack the heroes?
    I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.
    Oh, you can still disagree. The participants don't matter, the point remains the same - "why would you attack Mecha Hitler if you didn't want to get shot?" It's not a matter of "I want X, so I will do Y," that's a preposterous argument to begin with.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NihhusHuotAliro View Post
    Am I the only one who felt a little bit bad for the worm in the last panel. Being stabbed and slashed like that must hurt.

    I mean, it's just not fair for someone with arms to pick on someone who doesn't have any. It's wrong to attack the unarmed like that.
    "Are you saying Roy should engage the worm with his bare hands?"
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.
    Then I'll disagree on interest.
    Team win.
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    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-23 at 04:08 PM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Vampires in OotS are already different from vanilla D&D vampires, so I won’t assume that every single one has to change domains when vamped. Water & Magic don’t seem like domains that Hel offers, but Magic & Earth seem like likely domains for the O.G. Exarch to have.

    Maybe the Exarch traded for it from his pal, the high priest of the Creed of Water at Elemental Domains Convention. Per the Magic Domain, he can use arcane scrolls at half his Cleric level.
    Maybe when he was vamped, he kept the Magic Domain and swapped out Earth for one of Hel’s domains. He’s not high enough level Magic-domain Cleric to cast Horrid Wilting, so he makes a caster level check and rolls a natural 16. Success!

    I dunno. If I were a DM, and my newly vamped Cleric PC said, “I don’t like the vampire domains. Can I keep Good and Magic?”
    I would say, “Good domain, no. Magic... eh, why not. Sure.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
    Vampires in OotS are already different from vanilla D&D vampires
    How so?

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Their Domination gaze, for one.
    “Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.” But Durkula made Belkar jump off a ship. I believe someone said that it persists after death for some time, but Hilgya snapped out of it the instant of Durkula’s death.

    Also, the vampire spirit being custom made by a death deity for the host’s heart, holding the original soul hostage, “eternal sleep” after absorbing all the memories, the vampire slowly absorbing memories at all. All of that isn’t mentioned in core rules afaik. Not that it’s against the core rule book, but these rules seem to be specific to OotS.

    A mechanic for a willful host to take control of the vampire is also not anywhere in rules, of course.
    Last edited by Watcher; 2019-05-23 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I agree with you this time, but I still feel the urge to disagree on principle.
    Hmm. Let's see.

    You should most definitely not give me a million dollars.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
    Their Domination gaze, for one.
    “Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.” But Durkula made Belkar jump off a ship. I believe someone said that it persists after death for some time, but Hilgya snapped out of it the instant of Durkula’s death.

    Also, the vampire spirit being custom made by a death deity for the host’s heart, holding the original soul hostage, “eternal sleep” after absorbing all the memories, the vampire slowly absorbing memories at all. All of that isn’t mentioned in core rules afaik. Not that it’s against the core rule book, but these rules seem to be specific to OotS.

    A mechanic for a willful host to take control of the vampire is also not anywhere in rules, of course.
    That sounds like a change of how Domination itself works, not specifically with vampires.

    As for how vampires, specifically, work, it's been brought up several times before that "fluff" somewhere describes vampires as maligned presences that take over corpses, so even if Dnd terms that's not new. All the Giant did was flesh out exactly how that works, in his world.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Hmm. Let's see.

    You should most definitely not give me a million dollars.
    *gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Fair enough. So the Giant changed the minutiae of a spell. Maybe he changed the minutiae of which domains are available to vampires. That’s nothing compared to other changes he’s made in the name of a good story.
    Last edited by Watcher; 2019-05-23 at 05:18 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    *gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*
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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    It would be in Hel's best interest to have the vampires up and around, since they would be high level in a new world full of freshly born, low level mooks.
    Well, it certainly would be in hels favor to do that, but she's rather selfish and short sighted, as she didn't think about the bet she took in the first place. She might just order the whole dwarven vampire squad to stand in place so she can snack on more souls. Doubly so if she can take vampire dwarf souls, but I don't think it works like that.

    I mean, it would probably be in everyones or at least most peoples best interest to not be evil or selfish, so as to not incur the wrath of a terrible after life, and yet evil still persists. That is the nature of short sighted planning. Hel has shown poor planning abilities, and while it is possible she has since learned of that, her inclination to make bad decisions could be a persisting trait that continues to this day, whether she knows it or not.

    But, you might be right, and it is a good point to consider. Hel could have learned from her poor decisions and might order the vampire squad to plane shift to her domain to stand pat for the future world.

    Side note, what happens to vampires starved of blood? Will there be blood for them to feed on in the interim between world creation?
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    Well, it certainly would be in hels favor to do that, but she's rather selfish and short sighted, as she didn't think about the bet she took in the first place....

    Hel has shown poor planning abilities
    She didn't plan on Thor telling the dwarves about the bet. At worst, that's a single instance of a bad decision. She also showed excellent planning abilities at the Godsmoot, especially on short notice, and was only thwarted by a demigod who agreed not actually going through with it. I don't really think you can establish a pattern here.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    *gives the Weirdo 1 million Confederate dollars*
    *Sells the bills and coins given to numismatics stores and fans in general, netting for himself some 10 million dollars*
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    She didn't plan on Thor telling the dwarves about the bet. At worst, that's a single instance of a bad decision. She also showed excellent planning abilities at the Godsmoot, especially on short notice, and was only thwarted by a demigod who agreed not actually going through with it. I don't really think you can establish a pattern here.
    She made good use in the short term, but she seems to be bad in the long term.
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    She made good use in the short term, but she seems to be bad in the long term.
    In what way? Please provide an example that supports this assertion.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

    Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

    She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

    A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.
    Last edited by Watcher; 2019-05-23 at 06:36 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    In what way? Please provide an example that supports this assertion.
    She didn't think the whole bet through. thats poor long term planning, and didn't take into account any other gods doing anything to thwart her in the bet.

    I'll let the watcher take it from here as seen below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
    How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

    Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

    She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

    A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.
    This^^^

    She just threw a pox at her enemies without considering how long it would take for it to work. Jeez, thats not just long term planning, but short term is also pretty bad. She's kind of like nale in that regard. similar but certainly different.
    Vae Victus!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
    How long has Hel’s scheme taken? A week? Two weeks? It’s a great scheme, but it is very much short term. She doesn’t have a plan past the million soul payoff at the end.

    Some examples: Hel explained her scheme to the entire assembled Northern Pantheon just to gloat. Her speech directly influenced Idunn’s “No” vote and probably Hermod’s as well. Loki even called her out on her premature villain gloat. Loki sent Hilgya to help, and the High Priestess of Thor gave Roy the runestone that let him into Firmament. If Hel kept quiet, Rubyrock might not have had reason to help Roy.

    She knew the heroes were there, too. Roy had doubts about being able to stop Xykon. If he thought the souls of the dwarves were safe, he might have given up and let the gods kill everyone. If Hel kept her speech brief and maybe added points that Idunn, Bragi, and Hermod liked, her plan would be smoother right now. She might even have won then and there.

    A lesser example: She spent effort infecting everyone on the Mechane with Sphinx Pox. When someone told her the incubation time was five weeks, she screamed.
    I mean, when she's Queen of the Northern Pantheon why are you assuming she needs a plan past that?

    Except Hermond made it very clear that they only thought it was protest vote and didn't actually want to be party to actually destroying the world, and nothing else would be necessary. Hermond would gone back on their word no matter what, regardless of what Hel did or didn't do.

    You have to make some unsupported assumptions there to call that bad long-term planning. You don't even have proof that Hel didn't try to parlay with Iunn or Bragi before hand and it didn't matter. That a plan is not flawless is not the same thing as it not being well-thought out.

    I'm not trying to claim that Hel is some genius tactician, but that's also not the same thing as being as short-sighted as some people seem to love to claim.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-23 at 06:58 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    She didn't think the whole bet through. thats poor long term planning, and didn't take into account any other gods doing anything to thwart her in the bet.
    Not really; most bets hinging on third parties carry the unstated assumption that the bettors won't try to influence the outcome. I'd say it was kind of a jerk move on Thor's part of the bet itself wasn't a significantly bigger jerk move.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-23 at 07:03 PM.
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