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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Hello, everyone, and thank you for dropping in. We at Legendary have worked hard to produce a variety of class revisions and expansions over the years, and today I join the storied line with a reinterpretation of one of my favorite maligned classes, the Medium.

    The original Medium was a class with a fun concept that was bogged down by a shortage of tools, an inability to effectively adapt, and a constant risk of having the player lose control of their character. With the Legendary Medium, I am hoping to alleviate all three of these issues.

    Legendary Medium Playtest

    Gone are the taboos and influence system, replaced with assertion points, spirit affinities, and spirit feats. Beyond that, the Legendary Medium can choose among Thirteen spirits rather than just six, giving players many more options for dealing with any given issue. The spirits themselves are more clearly-written and more powerful, allowing the medium to better contribute as a party member. What's more, we have nine new archetypes for players to try out, many of them utilizing other subsystems.

    The playtest will run for two weeks. In the meantime, you are invited to offer any commentary you wish. Input is very much appreciated.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    The SoMP archetype, Thanatic (I think), should probably have its 'Magic Talents' class feature renamed 'Blended Training' because it doesn't just give magic talents, but combat talents as well. Otherwise, it looks good on first glance.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Update #1. I've been getting a lot of good feedback from various folks in the comments and over discord, so thank y'all for the help.

    Spirit Affinities
    -The Spirit Affinity that allows the medium to select a combat feat is no longer exclusive to the Champion of Legend and no longer exclusive to combat feats. Now called Insight from Beyond

    Champion Spirit
    -Intermediate and Greater spirit abilities have been improved to better accommodate martial characters which do not focus on full attacks.

    Marshal Spirit
    -Someone pointed out that I still had "Influence" written under some of the abilities. Good catch!

    Devoted Medium Archetype
    -Altered the capstone so that it works better with builds which don't possess spirit surge (loremaster and devoted medium combine well now)

    Revenant Spirit
    -Clarified Burn a bit more

    Thanatic Visionary
    -Has been improved substantially. Folks seem to like discussing this one
    -Full progression of Blended Training
    -Altered Bonus Divination Sphere. You can now select between divination and fate and are no longer forced into a drawback
    -Spherecaster Spirit has been buffed in a variety of ways. Spirit Bonus, Sphere Apprentice, and Sphere Surge are all a good deal stronger
    -Sphere Adept and Sphere Master have been rewritten
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

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    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    okay small question is this class uses intelligence for all things or charisma decide one will you.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Could Trapfinding, or a similar ability that allows you to disarm magical traps, be added as a Spirit Affinity?
    (Along with adding Disable Device as a class skill, or via said Spirit Affinity)

    A character like the Medium that has plenty of reason to regularly explore haunted ruins strikes me someone who might reasonably pick up the ability to deal with magical traps they'll encounter along the way. So it'd certainly fit in that regard.

    From a mechanical game design perspective, the Medium can easily fill a similar party role than a Rogue or Investigator - the person meant to be able to deal with unexpected situations by having a broad array of skills and abilities. That means that people might have a Medium in place of one of those classes - but if the Medium has no good means of dealing with magical traps, this is highly limiting.
    It'd be possible to add an ability like this onto a Spirit, but I think it'd fit better as a Spirit Affinity. That way, it won't determine what Spirit you have to channel.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Is it intended that bonus spells are based off Int when the spellcasting itself is based off Cha?

    Also, uh...how many spells does the Legendary Medium know? I get that they cast basically like arcanists, but arcanists have a spellbook that tracks their known spells. Do Legendary Mediums do the cleric thing of knowing their whole spell list automatically?

    I'm a little unclear on what Diverse Lore is meant to do. Is it supposed to allow you to ready the maneuvers you now know from it (in which case it seems extremely strong) or is it just meant to allow you to qualify for feats (or other maneuvers) that require a certain number of maneuvers/stances from a discipline?

    If the Revenant Spirit uses Spirit Maelstrom, how do they subsequently regain their body? It says the enforced incorporeal state only lasts for an hour, but there don't seem to be any rules for how a Revenant Spirit gets a new body.

    A slightly more minor thing, but not all spirit affinities that grant SLAs have the CL of the SLA noted.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    Is it intended that bonus spells are based off Int when the spellcasting itself is based off Cha?

    Also, uh...how many spells does the Legendary Medium know? I get that they cast basically like arcanists, but arcanists have a spellbook that tracks their known spells. Do Legendary Mediums do the cleric thing of knowing their whole spell list automatically?

    I'm a little unclear on what Diverse Lore is meant to do. Is it supposed to allow you to ready the maneuvers you now know from it (in which case it seems extremely strong) or is it just meant to allow you to qualify for feats (or other maneuvers) that require a certain number of maneuvers/stances from a discipline?

    If the Revenant Spirit uses Spirit Maelstrom, how do they subsequently regain their body? It says the enforced incorporeal state only lasts for an hour, but there don't seem to be any rules for how a Revenant Spirit gets a new body.

    A slightly more minor thing, but not all spirit affinities that grant SLAs have the CL of the SLA noted.
    well in patfinder core medum knows twice of his level.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    made a few comments on the doc, especially for wording things (like the Thanatic Visionary keeps calling combat talents martial talents, and the boost to effective BaB for spheres should be different)

    Overall I'm liking this I just think some things are overtuned like being able to give your whole party fast healing 1 at lvl 2, sure it replaces a wand of CLW and I'm all for that I just think that's too powerful for too little investment

    and while I do like the idea of changing spirits (I've spent hero points in my RotRL game to swap spirits mid combat) I think free reign to do so with no drawback is a bit much, maybe make it cost assertion, or make it a feat (chain?)

    I will definitely be buying this book once it releases though

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    Is it intended that bonus spells are based off Int when the spellcasting itself is based off Cha?
    That was a typo, now fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    Also, uh...how many spells does the Legendary Medium know? I get that they cast basically like arcanists, but arcanists have a spellbook that tracks their known spells. Do Legendary Mediums do the cleric thing of knowing their whole spell list automatically?
    Yes, they know their whole list automatically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    I'm a little unclear on what Diverse Lore is meant to do. Is it supposed to allow you to ready the maneuvers you now know from it (in which case it seems extremely strong) or is it just meant to allow you to qualify for feats (or other maneuvers) that require a certain number of maneuvers/stances from a discipline?
    The former. The intent is for you to be able to pick up additional maneuver schools. Wondering if some sort of limitation may be in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    If the Revenant Spirit uses Spirit Maelstrom, how do they subsequently regain their body? It says the enforced incorporeal state only lasts for an hour, but there don't seem to be any rules for how a Revenant Spirit gets a new body.
    Clarified that they rebuild their body after the hour is up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    A slightly more minor thing, but not all spirit affinities that grant SLAs have the CL of the SLA noted.
    Fixed
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    The main issue is that nothing in Diverse Lore implies it's capped by maximum maneuver level (since you're definitely capable of initiating, for instance, 3rd-level maneuvers as a 5th-level Champion of Legend, even if you don't know any from your original disciplines due to the level limit) - though the archetype itself is worded a little oddly, since you never really 'learn' your maneuvers, and there's also some weirdness that occurs if you use Advanced Study to learn a maneuver within one of your CoL disciplines, since then you're evidently capable of initiating it so you now know it via CoL's effect. If I might make a suggestion, it could be rewritten to something like:

    The champion of legend chooses any three disciplines to be available to him at first level, and always knows all maneuvers of these disciplines that he is capable of initiating, so long as they are at or below the maximum maneuver level listed on Table: Champion of Legend Maneuver Progression and he otherwise meets the prerequisites to learn them. Other methods that add maneuvers to his maneuvers known, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat, do not need to obey the level limits in the table, though he must qualify for them as normal.

    Once the champion of legend knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by champions of legend is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in it or its disciplineís description. A champion of legendís maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one.

    A champion of legendís initiation modifier is Charisma, and each champion of legend level is counted as a full initiator level.
    And Diverse Lore:

    Choose a martial discipline. You always know all maneuvers of this discipline according to the same restrictions as your other champion of legend disciplines. This spirit affinity can be selected multiple times.
    (Incidentally, is Diverse Lore meant to add the chosen discipline to your available disciplines for the purposes of Advanced Study and anything else that uses the same wording?)
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Okay I'm not sure if Essence Weaver rules as intended is the same as rules as written.

    The Essence Weaver has to make the choice about spirit powers when they recover spells, until the 20th level capstone.

    But invested essence, which is what the Essence Weaver does, invest essence, can be reallocated as a swift action.

    So by RAW the Essence Weaver would be limited to the powers they invested in while recovering spells, but would be free to reallocate essence as a swift action to change their spirit bonus.

    Reading it I kind of get the impression that you meant for the Essence Weaver to bind essence to spirits, especially considering the name of the class feature "Essence Bound Spirits," in which case both the spirit bonus and the spirit powers are static.

    At least until the capstone, which should have the wording changed to "the Essence Weave may reallocate essence they bound to their spirits among their bound spirits."

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Are you allowed to switch the spells you've prepared with a spellcasting spirit a) whenever you newly channel that spirit, b) along with your standard spell preparation or c) not at all, so once you choose them they're fixed bar retraining?
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    Okay I'm not sure if Essence Weaver rules as intended is the same as rules as written.

    The Essence Weaver has to make the choice about spirit powers when they recover spells, until the 20th level capstone.

    But invested essence, which is what the Essence Weaver does, invest essence, can be reallocated as a swift action.

    So by RAW the Essence Weaver would be limited to the powers they invested in while recovering spells, but would be free to reallocate essence as a swift action to change their spirit bonus.

    Reading it I kind of get the impression that you meant for the Essence Weaver to bind essence to spirits, especially considering the name of the class feature "Essence Bound Spirits," in which case both the spirit bonus and the spirit powers are static.

    At least until the capstone, which should have the wording changed to "the Essence Weave may reallocate essence they bound to their spirits among their bound spirits."
    No, you're reading it right. The essence weaver is able to reallocate essence between their spirits as a swift action. That said, the fact that they choose their spirit abilities at the start of the day gives them less on-the-fly improvisation than a normal medium

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    Are you allowed to switch the spells you've prepared with a spellcasting spirit a) whenever you newly channel that spirit, b) along with your standard spell preparation or c) not at all, so once you choose them they're fixed bar retraining?
    A. Your standard medium spells and spell slots, on the other hand, are not changed when you change spirits

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyarden View Post
    The main issue is that nothing in Diverse Lore implies it's capped by maximum maneuver level (since you're definitely capable of initiating, for instance, 3rd-level maneuvers as a 5th-level Champion of Legend, even if you don't know any from your original disciplines due to the level limit) - though the archetype itself is worded a little oddly, since you never really 'learn' your maneuvers, and there's also some weirdness that occurs if you use Advanced Study to learn a maneuver within one of your CoL disciplines, since then you're evidently capable of initiating it so you now know it via CoL's effect. If I might make a suggestion, it could be rewritten to something like:



    And Diverse Lore:



    (Incidentally, is Diverse Lore meant to add the chosen discipline to your available disciplines for the purposes of Advanced Study and anything else that uses the same wording?)

    Altered text implemented. The intent is that Diverse Lore should add the chosen discipline to available disciplines for all purposes, and I've clarified that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BewareOfTom View Post
    made a few comments on the doc, especially for wording things (like the Thanatic Visionary keeps calling combat talents martial talents, and the boost to effective BaB for spheres should be different)

    Overall I'm liking this I just think some things are overtuned like being able to give your whole party fast healing 1 at lvl 2, sure it replaces a wand of CLW and I'm all for that I just think that's too powerful for too little investment

    and while I do like the idea of changing spirits (I've spent hero points in my RotRL game to swap spirits mid combat) I think free reign to do so with no drawback is a bit much, maybe make it cost assertion, or make it a feat (chain?)

    I will definitely be buying this book once it releases though
    The fast healing I am considering nerfing, but I'm trying to figure out by how much. Would improving AC/CMD be better? Or maybe increasing downtime healing? Or maybe temporary hp?
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    A few other tweaks
    -Sudden Attack (Champion), Fleet Charge (Champion), Daring Escape (Stranger), and Plentiful Magic (Mystic) have all been altered
    -Wording has been clarified on some of the Thanatic Visionary and Revenant Spirit's abilities
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Thealtruistorc View Post
    The fast healing I am considering nerfing, but I'm trying to figure out by how much. Would improving AC/CMD be better? Or maybe increasing downtime healing? Or maybe temporary hp?
    Maybe a buffer on temp hp which recovers itself with fast healing, not sure on the amount/scaling of it though

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Given there are now archetypes that let you channel multiple spirits, what happens if you have the base spirit ability from multiple spellcasting spirits, do you only benefit from the extra spell slots once but gain extra spells prepared per spirit?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    Given there are now archetypes that let you channel multiple spirits, what happens if you have the base spirit ability from multiple spellcasting spirits, do you only benefit from the extra spell slots once but gain extra spells prepared per spirit?
    Correct. You gain extra spells prepared for each spirit but do not gain additional spirit spell slots.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    For the bound specifically and anything else that calls out 5th or 6th medium spells, is anything going to be done about the fact that they have no 5th level spells and only 3 6th level spells (which paizo's medium has no access too so I assume were put as medium spells as an accident/misprint)

    EDIT: for the guardian boon, it could be 2 or 4 temp hp per HD that is healed as if fast healing 1, then it's pseudo d10/12
    Last edited by BewareOfTom; 2019-04-30 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by BewareOfTom View Post
    For the bound specifically and anything else that calls out 5th or 6th medium spells, is anything going to be done about the fact that they have no 5th level spells and only 3 6th level spells (which paizo's medium has no access too so I assume were put as medium spells as an accident/misprint)

    EDIT: for the guardian boon, it could be 2 or 4 temp hp per HD that is healed as if fast healing 1, then it's pseudo d10/12
    For the bound, the idea is that these slots can be filled up with metamagic-ed spells of lower levels. This is why the spirit grants a bonus metamagic feat.

    I'll try out the temp hp idea. We'll see how people like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    I suppose metamagic could be an ok replacement for actual spells, I'd have to look over the spell list again but it feels very eh to me right now

    has me think it'd be best as a secondary spirit via devoted or later levels (assuming that works, has been a while since I looked it over)

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Updated with a new archetype, the Capricious Channeler, as well as whole bunch of new Spirit Affinities (mostly based on archetypes from Occult Archetypes and Aether Campaign Setting.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    The 'Table: Champion of Legend Maneuver Progression' and 'Table: Akashic Essence Capacity' tables should probably be moved to the end of their respective archetypes (instead of being placed after the Thanatic Visionary, as they have nothing to do with it).

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Am I the only one who would like Capricious Channeler transformations to the spirits class feature? I don't know, something like-

    So that when a Channeler calls a spirit, they get a use of formchange.

    Doing the ten minute seance, they refresh their formchange.

    When trance of many kicks in, the Channeler would get a use of formchange for each spirit they are channeling.

    And with Astral Beacon, the Channeler could transform with every temporary spirit they channel.

    Or something like that, anyway.

    It just seems to me the shapeshifting should come as an extension of their mediumship, but as it is it's completely separate.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    Am I the only one who would like Capricious Channeler transformations to the spirits class feature? I don't know, something like-

    So that when a Channeler calls a spirit, they get a use of formchange.

    Doing the ten minute seance, they refresh their formchange.

    When trance of many kicks in, the Channeler would get a use of formchange for each spirit they are channeling.

    And with Astral Beacon, the Channeler could transform with every temporary spirit they channel.

    Or something like that, anyway.

    It just seems to me the shapeshifting should come as an extension of their mediumship, but as it is it's completely separate.
    It was based on an old medium archetype from Occult Archetypes, back when the medium could only change spirits once per day. Your idea actually works really well, and I've reworked the Capricious Channeler archetype to accommodate it.

    Also, added some more spirit affinities and a new archetype: The Everyman.

    There's been some talk of the Stranger's base spirit ability being replaced, perhaps with something involving combat maneuvers (free manevuers on attacks, or something like that). Thoughts?
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    I love the new capricious channeler, much better IMHO

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Updated once again. The Devoted Medium, by poplar request, has been nerfed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Howdy folks.

    So we're gonna be wrapping up the playtest soon, but if folks are interested in hammering out a few more issues or possibly suggesting new ideas, I may be interested in keeping this up another week.

    Is there anything else about this class that could be fixed or expanded upon? Any archetype ideas or character concepts that players feel are represented insufficiently? I'd love to hear what you folks have to say.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Well since you asked, I noticed a psionic Medium was missing from the "other subsystem" archetypes.

    As for other ideas, possessed objects are a trope with a long history, how about a Medium who doesn't channel spirits through their own body, but through proxy objects, making temporary magic items, or enhancing existing magic items?

    How about a spirit affinity to gain a familiar that the medium can channel spirit powers through? I mean the legends of familiars were that they were spirits in animal form, so it seems appropriate.

    That's all that springs to mind at the moment.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    Well since you asked, I noticed a psionic Medium was missing from the "other subsystem" archetypes.

    As for other ideas, possessed objects are a trope with a long history, how about a Medium who doesn't channel spirits through their own body, but through proxy objects, making temporary magic items, or enhancing existing magic items?

    How about a spirit affinity to gain a familiar that the medium can channel spirit powers through? I mean the legends of familiars were that they were spirits in animal form, so it seems appropriate.

    That's all that springs to mind at the moment.
    The familiar idea is a good one. I've added it to the familiar class feature.

    The item idea feels more like an Occultist ability, one that I might save for later.

    As for psionics, I'm kind of reluctant to do a psionic medium after Dreamscarred Press executed the idea so well with the Empath. That said, I suppose I could put something together if folks want a full manifester medium.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Legendary Medium Open Playtest

    Updated with a new psionic medium archetype. The Phrenic Invoker. Hopefully it is suitably different from the Empath.
    Dark Green, the color of Chaotic Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Altruistorc is leaving me deeply disturbed and intrigued at the same time...

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