Yora reviews Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - All of it!

[russdm]

Not just that, but, as I recall, the events of First Contact had not yet transpired when Voyager first arrived in the Delta Quadrant.

Voyager arrives in the Delta Quadrant in 2371. First Contact takes place in 2373.

Which is probably why the Borg are willing to negotiate with Voyager in the first place - the events of First Contact, which take place roughly mid-way through Season 3 of Voyager, have dealt them a setback.

To be honest, I have a heard time buying that. We have seen thousands or at least dozens of Cubes owned by Borg, so, losing one in First Contact really isn't affecting them all that much. There are few episodes in Voyager that feature Borg Cubes being forgotten about. One got knocked out by an Ion Storm or took damage; another crashed on a planet, and one group of the De-Collective Borg make Chacatoy help them reestablish a collective among only the planet's inhabitants. In another instance, i think a reference to a bunch of lost Borg is mentioned, like casualities and it's treated as no big thing.

Remember that the Borg also increase their numbers by claiming the people of other races that they zombify and forcibly add into their Hive Mind, turning them into mindless drones. No one else in the entire Delta Quadrant and elsewhere are shown to be able to challenge or even harm them really. Beyond Ichab guy from that one episode with that stuff. Before Species 8472, the Borg were even something of concern for the Q, with Q's "Don't provoke the Borg".

Humans blowing up one measly cube and killing its queen, is not a real major setback, more like a minor one. We have been shown that there is more than just one queen.

I think for DS9, i wasn't that terribly impressed with the Kira-Shakaar romance. It didn't have the same general feel as the one for Kira-Bariel, especially with how much the story works to show its run. I always liked B more, since he was a Vedek, but also seemed very based in his faith, like not a fanatic or power-hungry like Winn. A friendly down to earth, somewhat Father Mulcahy from M.A.S.H. sort. Always a sense of his genuinely carrying about people, while Winn always came across as viewing others on how useful they could be to her. That may be more based on how they were played maybe? I mean, B is very much like Kai Opaka, and was willing to lose being made Kai to keep her secret. He could have been found out, and actually charged as being a collaborter, for the death of Opaka's son, and gone to jail or something. B was willing to do that without thought to consequences. Kira actually chews him out for it.

Then Shakaar. Do we actually get to see in universe what kind of job that Shakaar is actually doing? His progress or other status? It doesn't really that we have seen or heard much in this first appearance of him as First Minister.

Also, who exactly was running? We know Kai Winn was there, and Shakaar, but was that the only two in the running for hte job of First Minister? No one else wanted the job? No one else was interested?

[bguy]

Also, who exactly was running? We know Kai Winn was there, and Shakaar, but was that the only two in the running for hte job of First Minister? No one else wanted the job? No one else was interested?

It's mentioned at the end of the episode Shakaar that a couple of other people did run for the office, but that Winn ended up endorsing Shakaar's candidacy. Given Winn was the Kai and was still publicly very popular from having negotiated the peace treaty with the Cardassians it makes sense that her endorsement would all but guarantee Shakaar the election.

[hamishspence]

Humans blowing up one measly cube and killing its queen, is not a real major setback, more like a minor one. We have been shown that there is more than just one queen.

Have we? Or do the Borg make a new queen each time the old one is lost, rather than having multiple queens active?

The point I was trying to make though was that First Contact should not be counted for Janeway's decision-making process, since it happened after Voyager was brought to the Delta Quadrant by the Caretaker.

[Mightymosy]

The difference is that Paul Verhoven wasn't just ignoring the source material he was subverting it. He hated the concepts and story of Starship Troopers, and instead wanted to tell a story about how it was all nonsense.

The movie is very obviously a satire. At least in hindsight and when you're no longer 13 years old. Back then I really wasn't sure if it was a joke or a genuinely dumb.

I have said it herr before: when I was a teen some of my friends genuinely liked that movie exactly face-up.

I hated it because I hate miltarism, my friends found it awesome.

Maybe it's because we are Germans and are prone to militarism ideology?

In my opinion, this movie - if it really is supposed to be satiric - shows the clear danger of "if you are subtle trying to convey a message ironically, it can easily backfire and you advertise exactly what you were trying to dissuade people from".

Not all humans are IQ120.
LOTS of people take stuff as granted - or worse, disbelieve the wrong stuff and believe the wrong stuff.

Subtle irony is for intellectuals, which most people just aren't.

If you want to educate lesser educated people, don't do subtle irony.

Well at least that's my opinion from my limited experience.

[Yora]

This is the first time I've seen someone call that movie subtle.

[Kitten Champion]

This is the first time I've seen someone call that movie subtle.

You say that, but many movie critics panned Starship Troopers because they took it on face value as a stupid summer blockbuster. Some even heavily criticized it as fascist propaganda, like that Paul Verhoven was pushing Neo-Nazism with it. Even outside that, the studio didn't really know what they were dealing with either. Not only did they make a line of children's toys inspired by the movie, but they also produced a straight-serious 3D animated cartoon - Roughnecks - which omitted the political aspects to do something like Starcraft.

It's like the weird area RoboCop was in where it's this really adult, violent, and darkly satirical work that's heavily in moral dissonance with present values of much of the audience - or at least intended to be - if they stopped to consider it at all but somehow they wanted to finagle it into a He-Man/Ninja Turtles-esque franchise for children to consume. It's also got sequels which mimic the original's style somewhat but lack much of the subtext.

[Yora]

S4E14: Return to Grace

Kira is going to a security conference with the Cardassians to share information about the Klingons. The captain of the Cardassian freighter that takes here there turns out to be Dukat, who after returning to Cardassia with his iligitimate daughter lost his government post and was kicked out by his wife and parents. He says it's nothing to worry about and only a temporary setback until he will work his way back up again and get his family's forgiveness. Also on the freighter is his daughter Ziyal, and his pilot Damar. I had totally forgotten that Damar started out as a completely irrelevant freighter pilot.

Dukat runs his freighter like a warship, and I am not quite sure if the crew is constantly rolling their eyes on how ridiculous it all is. He also starts hitting on Kira and talking **** about Shakar to her.

When they reach the conference, the whole outpost has been destroyed with no signs of the rest of the Cardassian and Bajoran delegations. There's a single Klingon ship nearby and Dukat give the ridiculous order to attack it. But even with no shields the freighter doesn't cause it any damage and apparently the Klingons are so amused by it that they don't even shot back when they leave the system, which Dukat takes as adding insult to injury. Kira suggest they take some of the stations powerless defense turrets and install it in one of their cargo holds. Dukat tells her it's a stupid idea, but if he wants to fight the Klingons with this freighter he got, he has to forget about doing things by the book.

Kira is training Ziyal in using phaser rifles and they have a conversation about the bad things and good things of Dukat, with Kira not trying to talk badly about her father, but also explaining why she doesn't like him.

Dukat and Kira are trying to predict where the Klingon raider will attack next. Eventually Dukat thinks they will attack a remote planet far away from the Cardassian fleets. The records say it's an irrelevant colony, but Dukat knows that's not really the case and thinks the Klingons might now it. Because they already attacked valuable targets that were supposed to be secret. As they set up their ambush and wait for the Klingons to arrive, Dukat is already making plans how to get revenge on his rivals when he gets back to power. There's a Gul who probably is trying to steal his wife right now, and he intends to make him an ambassador to the Breen, so he'll constantly freeze his ass of in the arctic climate.

The Klingons arrive and are fooled by the freighter having very valuable cargo for plundering. When the Klingons take them in a tractor beam, Dukat opens the cargo doors and fires the hidden disruptors. The Klingons are badly hit not destroyed, so Kira and Dukat beam to the Klingon ship and use their transporter to switch the Klingon and Cardassian crews. Then Dukat uses the Klingon weapons to destroy the freighter. Kira also finds the orders for all the Klingon raiders, which Dukat wants to trade the government for making him a legate again.

But the council calls back, telling Dukat "Yeah, thanks. But we're currently trying to come to a diplomatic agreement with the Klingons. Don't do anything to make them angry." They want to give him his job back, but what's the point of being a military leader when you're not allowed to fight the enemy? But now that he has a ship with a cloaking device and lots of Klingon intelligence, he can go fighting them himself. Kira thinks that's insane, but Dukat tells her the Bajorans started with much less when they began to fight the occupation. And with Kira on his crew, he'd have another huge advantage. He makes a compelling offer and thinks fighting an enemy from hiding is what she really wants to do with her life,

Kira really isn't keen about it, but Ziyal is excited about fighting the Klingons with her father. And having no experience herself, she wants Kira to train her. Which Kira really doesn't want to. She tells Dukat she won't come with them because she already spend most of her time living like that and she really doesn't want to do that ever again. But she makes Dukat the offer to take Ziyal with her to the station and protect her while Dukat is at war, so she won't have to either.

--

Pretty good episode. I think more than the episodes that came before, this one is the point where it the show really starts feeling to me like Late Deep Space Nine, in contrast to Early Deep Space Nine. And coincidentally it's exactly at the halfway point of the halfway season. And it's one of those Klingon and Cardassian adventures episode, which are usually the main thing that makes me remember the show fondly and deciding to watch part of it again for the who knows how manyth time. Season 3 to me felt a bit half and half, but now the show really seems to have found the style that I remember from the later parts of the series.

It has been gradual so far, but this season they are really expanding their cast of secondary characters. We have Damar appear for the first time, and Ziyal is made into something of a regular by being put on the station in Kira's care. Leeta had two very small appearances, and I think Rom is soon getting a lot more screen time. Martok will become a common sight not too long from now I believe, and I think it also can't be too long now until we finally meet all our favorite Vorta. And we've also been getting some Morn jokes for a while now. Not really sure how much time they'll all be getting after all these years, but I think it was a good idea. The lack of supporting cast in the first two season probably added to them feeling a bit bland and sterile. Looking forward to see how that aspect will turn out in the next weeks. From what I remember, Ziyal seemed like a good character. We'll see if that will hold up now under critical examination.

Dukat hitting on Kira is still weird. As is Kira letting it fly without really complaining. She just always seems to be way too relaxed and casual around him and I don't see a single thing that would make her warm up to him. Kira's conversation with Ziyal about why she hates Dukat (does she?) reminded me a lot of a similar scene with O'Brien in S2E5: Cardassians. Both trying their best to not give the kids an impression that they should resent their parents, while also not wanting to lie to them about the Cardassian military. No clue if that was intentional, or just seemed like appropriate scenes for both episodes.

I'm not sure if it was at the start of this episode or the previous one, but I always find it very interesting that Kira consistently calls her past fighting the Cardassians not a rebell but a terrorist. I think in part it's to show that she makes no excuses for the dirty things she did or trying to whitewash any of it, but I wonder how harshly that came across back in the 90s.

[Kantaki]

Huh. Dukat being crazy started this early?
Still far from where he ends though...

[Xyril]

Huh. Dukat being crazy started this early?
Still far from where he ends though...

I mean, it depends on how you define "crazy."

If you mean narcissistic to the point of self-delusion (in terms of how people, particularly the Bajorans, view him and his past) that started well before this episode.

If you mean veering towards Joker-level "let's just watch the galaxy burn" levels of super-villainy, then there's a particular episode (I'm pretty sure you know exactly which one) that really marks the true starting point on that one.

I don't think Dukat was particularly "more crazy" by any metric compared to his last appearance. It's not uncommon for people who suffer a major setback to try to replicate the trapping of their previous position, nor for career military types to take a while to fully adjust to civilian life. I don't think Dukat was ever crazy in the sense of thinking he had any chance at all to beat to Klingons in a straight up fight. I saw it more as half thinking that blaze of glory suicide by Klingon was one of his better ways out, and simply never having been in a situation where a military confrontation was almost literally suicide. At least during his tenure on the show, he was usually in command of a pretty powerful warship--even if he picked a fight where the odds were against him, he at least had odds of winning and his ship was probably tough enough to give him time to surrender or retreat after realizing that his chances had shrunk to close to zero. It wasn't until the Klingons left that he fully understood that he had zero chance of winning and pretty much zero chance of survival had the Klingons decided to fight back.

[Dragonus45]

The difference is that Paul Verhoven wasn't just ignoring the source material he was subverting it. He hated the concepts and story of Starship Troopers, and instead wanted to tell a story about how it was all nonsense.

I’m familiar with what he tried to do. And while he made a very funny movie he did an awful job of actually satirizing the ideas of the book since the book carried none of the ideas he pretended it did. Might have helped if he read it.

[Wraith]

Dukat hitting on Kira is still weird. As is Kira letting it fly without really complaining. She just always seems to be way too relaxed and casual around him and I don't see a single thing that would make her warm up to him. Kira's conversation with Ziyal about why she hates Dukat (does she?) reminded me a lot of a similar scene with O'Brien in S2E5: Cardassians. Both trying their best to not give the kids an impression that they should resent their parents, while also not wanting to lie to them about the Cardassian military. No clue if that was intentional, or just seemed like appropriate scenes for both episodes.

How I've always interpreted it is, by this point in the show Dukat was deliberately being shown as... normal.

He's still arrogant, entitled and obsessed with power, but several episodes seem to spend a significant amount of time portraying him as something other than the monster that Kira thought him during the occupation.
He's unexpectedly charming (in his own way), he has a daughter who he adores, and when his homeworld is put in the same situation as Kira's then Dukat rises to the challenge in the same way that she did - leading an armed insurrection against the invaders no matter how futile it seemed. They have a lot more in common than anyone ever expected, and I think Kira is being slowly coming to believe that for all his faults, Dukat really believes that he "did what he had to do" and tried to protect Bajorans as best he could and, though flawed, might not necessarily be "bad".

Obviously that all unravels later on and we get the more familiar egomaniacal tyrant. Was he always like that, or is he just able to hide it well? The case could be made either way, with the benefit of hindsight. That's why Dukat has always been one of my favourite characters, and not just for his devastating quips.

[Saph]

Obviously that all unravels later on and we get the more familiar egomaniacal tyrant. Was he always like that, or is he just able to hide it well? The case could be made either way, with the benefit of hindsight. That's why Dukat has always been one of my favourite characters, and not just for his devastating quips.

I think the reason Dukat's character works so well is that the actor really did a good job of showing why Dukat doesn't see himself as a villain. Star Trek has tried to do those kinds of differing-point-of-view antagonists on lots of occasions, but they generally don't do a very good job of it – they usually ended up as some combination of underdeveloped and forgettable. The fact that most antagonists are confined to enemy-of-the-week status doesn't help.

DS9 was really the only Star Trek that had long enough story arcs to give the 'bad guys' proper screen time.

[Mightymosy]

You say that, but many movie critics panned Starship Troopers because they took it on face value as a stupid summer blockbuster. Some even heavily criticized it as fascist propaganda, like that Paul Verhoven was pushing Neo-Nazism with it. Even outside that, the studio didn't really know what they were dealing with either. Not only did they make a line of children's toys inspired by the movie, but they also produced a straight-serious 3D animated cartoon - Roughnecks - which omitted the political aspects to do something like Starcraft.

It's like the weird area RoboCop was in where it's this really adult, violent, and darkly satirical work that's heavily in moral dissonance with present values of much of the audience - or at least intended to be - if they stopped to consider it at all but somehow they wanted to finagle it into a He-Man/Ninja Turtles-esque franchise for children to consume. It's also got sequels which mimic the original's style somewhat but lack much of the subtext.

Yeah, in our teens we encountered Starcraft and Starship Troopers at somewhat the same time - and Starship Troopers seemed just as awesome as Starcraft to most of us. I didn't like it at all, but even I did not understand that it was supposed to be satirical. I read that much later.

S4E14: Return to Grace

Kira is going to a security conference with the Cardassians to share information about the Klingons. The captain of the Cardassian freighter that takes here there turns out to be Dukat, who after returning to Cardassia with his iligitimate daughter lost his government post and was kicked out by his wife and parents. He says it's nothing to worry about and only a temporary setback until he will work his way back up again and get his family's forgiveness. Also on the freighter is his daughter Ziyal, and his pilot Damar. I had totally forgotten that Damar started out as a completely irrelevant freighter pilot.

Dukat runs his freighter like a warship, and I am not quite sure if the crew is constantly rolling their eyes on how ridiculous it all is. He also starts hitting on Kira and talking **** about Shakar to her.

When they reach the conference, the whole outpost has been destroyed with no signs of the rest of the Cardassian and Bajoran delegations. There's a single Klingon ship nearby and Dukat give the ridiculous order to attack it. But even with no shields the freighter doesn't cause it any damage and apparently the Klingons are so amused by it that they don't even shot back when they leave the system, which Dukat takes as adding insult to injury. Kira suggest they take some of the stations powerless defense turrets and install it in one of their cargo holds. Dukat tells her it's a stupid idea, but if he wants to fight the Klingons with this freighter he got, he has to forget about doing things by the book.

Kira is training Ziyal in using phaser rifles and they have a conversation about the bad things and good things of Dukat, with Kira not trying to talk badly about her father, but also explaining why she doesn't like him.

Dukat and Kira are trying to predict where the Klingon raider will attack next. Eventually Dukat thinks they will attack a remote planet far away from the Cardassian fleets. The records say it's an irrelevant colony, but Dukat knows that's not really the case and thinks the Klingons might now it. Because they already attacked valuable targets that were supposed to be secret. As they set up their ambush and wait for the Klingons to arrive, Dukat is already making plans how to get revenge on his rivals when he gets back to power. There's a Gul who probably is trying to steal his wife right now, and he intends to make him an ambassador to the Breen, so he'll constantly freeze his ass of in the arctic climate.

The Klingons arrive and are fooled by the freighter having very valuable cargo for plundering. When the Klingons take them in a tractor beam, Dukat opens the cargo doors and fires the hidden disruptors. The Klingons are badly hit not destroyed, so Kira and Dukat beam to the Klingon ship and use their transporter to switch the Klingon and Cardassian crews. Then Dukat uses the Klingon weapons to destroy the freighter. Kira also finds the orders for all the Klingon raiders, which Dukat wants to trade the government for making him a legate again.

But the council calls back, telling Dukat "Yeah, thanks. But we're currently trying to come to a diplomatic agreement with the Klingons. Don't do anything to make them angry." They want to give him his job back, but what's the point of being a military leader when you're not allowed to fight the enemy? But now that he has a ship with a cloaking device and lots of Klingon intelligence, he can go fighting them himself. Kira thinks that's insane, but Dukat tells her the Bajorans started with much less when they began to fight the occupation. And with Kira on his crew, he'd have another huge advantage. He makes a compelling offer and thinks fighting an enemy from hiding is what she really wants to do with her life,

Kira really isn't keen about it, but Ziyal is excited about fighting the Klingons with her father. And having no experience herself, she wants Kira to train her. Which Kira really doesn't want to. She tells Dukat she won't come with them because she already spend most of her time living like that and she really doesn't want to do that ever again. But she makes Dukat the offer to take Ziyal with her to the station and protect her while Dukat is at war, so she won't have to either.

--

Pretty good episode. I think more than the episodes that came before, this one is the point where it the show really starts feeling to me like Late Deep Space Nine, in contrast to Early Deep Space Nine. And coincidentally it's exactly at the halfway point of the halfway season. And it's one of those Klingon and Cardassian adventures episode, which are usually the main thing that makes me remember the show fondly and deciding to watch part of it again for the who knows how manyth time. Season 3 to me felt a bit half and half, but now the show really seems to have found the style that I remember from the later parts of the series.

It has been gradual so far, but this season they are really expanding their cast of secondary characters. We have Damar appear for the first time, and Ziyal is made into something of a regular by being put on the station in Kira's care. Leeta had two very small appearances, and I think Rom is soon getting a lot more screen time. Martok will become a common sight not too long from now I believe, and I think it also can't be too long now until we finally meet all our favorite Vorta. And we've also been getting some Morn jokes for a while now. Not really sure how much time they'll all be getting after all these years, but I think it was a good idea. The lack of supporting cast in the first two season probably added to them feeling a bit bland and sterile. Looking forward to see how that aspect will turn out in the next weeks. From what I remember, Ziyal seemed like a good character. We'll see if that will hold up now under critical examination.

Dukat hitting on Kira is still weird. As is Kira letting it fly without really complaining. She just always seems to be way too relaxed and casual around him and I don't see a single thing that would make her warm up to him. Kira's conversation with Ziyal about why she hates Dukat (does she?) reminded me a lot of a similar scene with O'Brien in S2E5: Cardassians. Both trying their best to not give the kids an impression that they should resent their parents, while also not wanting to lie to them about the Cardassian military. No clue if that was intentional, or just seemed like appropriate scenes for both episodes.

I'm not sure if it was at the start of this episode or the previous one, but I always find it very interesting that Kira consistently calls her past fighting the Cardassians not a rebell but a terrorist. I think in part it's to show that she makes no excuses for the dirty things she did or trying to whitewash any of it, but I wonder how harshly that came across back in the 90s.

Wait, when was Dukat degraded? And when did see his daughter? I completely missed that, even though I thought I had read all your reviews.
Can you please say which those were? Thank you!

[hamishspence]

Can you please say which those were? Thank you!

This was the episode that introduced Ziyal:

S4E5: Indiscretion

[The Glyphstone]

The Starship Troopers movie is famous in sci-fi circles for being one of the most lazy adaptions in cinematic history (the director doing the adaption couldn't be bothered to read the book.)

It was more because of hate than laziness. He hated it.

The difference is that Paul Verhoven wasn't just ignoring the source material he was subverting it. He hated the concepts and story of Starship Troopers, and instead wanted to tell a story about how it was all nonsense.

Isn't it common knowledge by now that Starship Troopers was originally written as an unrelated story - Bug Hunt On Outpost Nine, then hastily re-written after buying the rights to the book was judged cheaper than the possible infringement lawsuit? So it wasn't even intended as a faithful ST movie to begin with, leaving aside the director's disdain for the source material.

[Traab]

I think the reason Dukat's character works so well is that the actor really did a good job of showing why Dukat doesn't see himself as a villain. Star Trek has tried to do those kinds of differing-point-of-view antagonists on lots of occasions, but they generally don't do a very good job of it – they usually ended up as some combination of underdeveloped and forgettable. The fact that most antagonists are confined to enemy-of-the-week status doesn't help.

DS9 was really the only Star Trek that had long enough story arcs to give the 'bad guys' proper screen time.

Thats the thing, NOBODY sees themself as the villain. They all see what they do as necessary to achieve whatever goal they have. The borg dont see themselves as villains, they see what they do as seeking perfection by taking in everything everyone has ever done, and adding it to their collective, adapting the parts that are better, culling the parts that are worse. The dominion dont see themselves as evil, even putting aside the monumental brainwashing the jem hadar and vorta grow up with, the founders themselves dont see what they do as evil, its establishing order in a chaotic universe. And Dukat has reason to think of himself as not evil, after all, he compares himself to the cardassians that revel in slaughter torture and mayhem, sees that he never went in for that and took little joy in his work, and by his lights that proves he is a good guy who deserves thanks because it so easily could have been so much worse. Kira says, "Umm, we were still SLAVES with no rights, no protection other than the whims of our masters, having our world stripped bare of anything useful and you were our primary overseer and you want THANKS?! Because you could have been an even CRUELER master but werent? May the Prophets make your crotch hair burn for all eternity!" Perspective is a funny thing like that.

[hamishspence]

Kira says, "Umm, we were still SLAVES with no rights, no protection other than the whims of our masters, having our world stripped bare of anything useful and you were our primary overseer and you want THANKS?! Because you could have been an even CRUELER master but werent?

I remember in Farnham's Freehold, the point being made that the "kindhearted slavemaster" is a far worse person than his crueller immediate subordinate, for exactly the same reason as mentioned above. That belief that they deserve thanks for not being crueller.

[Cikomyr]

For me, the character of Dukat hasn't really becomes to unravel/become truly irrational until Duet. Everything after is just the writers unable to handle a villain that has finished his story, and yet was too popular/good to work with to get rid of.

The last 1.5 seasons of Dukat was a bit of an embarrassment.

[Dragonus45]

Isn't it common knowledge by now that Starship Troopers was originally written as an unrelated story - Bug Hunt On Outpost Nine, then hastily re-written after buying the rights to the book was judged cheaper than the possible infringement lawsuit? So it wasn't even intended as a faithful ST movie to begin with, leaving aside the director's disdain for the source material.

That's literally exactly what happened, and Paul Verhoeven has admitted he couldn't be bothered to read more then the first two chapters of the book instead listening to a very general synopsis and deciding he understood its themes well enough to spend decades criticizing it. Which is why claiming its in any way an effective satire of the book or listening to really anything Verhoeven has to say about it is silly. The fact the movie has so thoroughly tainted and covered up the legacy of the book is also terribly frustrating.

Obviously that all unravels later on and we get the more familiar egomaniacal tyrant. Was he always like that, or is he just able to hide it well? The case could be made either way, with the benefit of hindsight. That's why Dukat has always been one of my favourite characters, and not just for his devastating quips.

I get the feeling the Tyrant was sitting under the skin all along, when he was in power during the occupation of Bajor it was there, just under the surface. And when he wasn't it was easier to be more human, for lack of a better term. Then he gets more power, and power reveals what his worst self is and destroys him.

[Yora]

S4E15: Sons of Mogh

Worf gets called from sparring with Dax by Odo, because there's a drunk Klingon demanding to see him. It's his brother Kurn who had disappeared for several months and now has come back to die honorably by Worf killing him. Worf's dishonor has caused his family to lose everything, and now Kurn demands that he at least restore his honor.

Kira and O'Brien are away with a shuttle and detect a strange explosion at the border of Bajoran space. When they go to investigate, a Klingon ship decloaks and tells them that they are conducting an exercise in neutral space and they have to leave the area immediately.

Dax asks Quark if he has seen Worf, since he hasn't come up for practice. Quark is still pissed at Worf for yelling at him when he came earlier to buy some stuff, and Dax realizes what the things are for runs with Odo to Worf's quarters to stop him and Kurn. They arrive just as Kurn gets stabbed and Dax transports him to the infirmary before he dies.

Sisko is of course really unhappy about that. He's not interested in punishing Worf but wants a good answer for what they were doing. He has a limit to cultural tolerance, and Worf just went well past that. He also doesn't want to hear anything from Dax defending it.

Sisko tells Kira and O'Brien to take the Defiant to do a close up search of where the Klingons blew something up. If the Klingon cause them any trouble, they have to tell them the Defiant is conducting a military exercise and they have to leave the area. Worf is getting access to their reports as usual, but under no circumstances gets involved in the investigation.

Kurn wakes up in the ICU and immediately sees that this isn't Valhalla. Worf explains to him that they can't kill him right now and he will have to live for the time being until he can regain his honor. Dax goes to Worf to appollogize that she screwed up and messed up the whole thing. Worf tells her he doesn't blame her because she was acting out of concern. That might not be a good enough reason for a Klingon, but he doesn't hold her to those standards and knows she only meant well.

Dax has the idea to get Kurn into Odo's team. Odo isn't too thrilled about the request but agrees to give it a try. But it's going to be a very big favor for Worf. Later Worf comes by to see how it goes, and Odo think's Kurn is actually doing pretty well. But Kurn hates the whole thing, though he will try continue with it for Worf's sake.

Kira and O'Brien are searching the Bajoran border and find signs of a lot of Klingon ships having been through the area recently, and oddly enough having stuck consistently to never actually cross the border, even though they were cloaked. Another explosion happens nearby, this time causing a heavily damaged Klingon cruiser to decloak. Kira calls if they need help, but gets told they aren't needed and to stay away. Just a minute later the Klingons call again and ask for medical treatment of injured crew, and when told that they would have to tow them to the station the Klingons agree.

On the station, Worf gets called to the infirmary because Kurn has been shot on duty. Odo thinks Kurn is trying to get himself killed and therefore is a risk to the rest of the security officers.

After having treated the wounded Klingons, Bashir thinks all their injuries match what is usually expected from explosions on a starship, with no indication of any unconventional technologies or weapons involved. O'Brien thinks the damage on the ship looked like a torpedo hit, and Worf concludes that the Klingons are placing a cloaked minefield at the Bajoran border, which can be remotely activated when a signal is given. Until then, traffic should go through the area normally without anyone noticing anything, but apparently some of the mines are detonating prematurely.

Worf wants to infiltrate the docked Klingon ship by disguising himself as a soldier and gets Kurn to go with him, to prevent the High Council for starting a war with the Federation that might destroy the Empire. They quickly get caught by a guard and Worf tries to intimidate him to leave them alone, but when he turns around Kurn shots the guard who was pulling his knife. They get the files they need, but Worf tells Dax that he's very worried that he didn't see the attack coming and turned his back to the guard. He has been around humans for too long and also doesn't really have it in him to stab Kurn again.

Kira and O'Brien return to the minefield and send a call to all Klingon ships in the area that they better leave quickly, because they are going to blow up all their mines. At first they of course don't believe it, but after they blow up a couple, some ships decloak and make a run for it.

When Worf goes to him, Kurn is thinking about shoting himself, and asks him why it would be honorable if Worf kills him, but not if he kills himself. Even if he goes to hell, at least he'd be with Klingons again. When he passes out drunk, he and Dax take him to the infirmary to have his memories erased and get a new face. Worf has called in a favor from an old family friend who will take Kurn in and tell him that he is his son who had a bad accident. Bashir asks if Worf is certain about it before he does it, and Worf thinks there is no better way.
When Kurn gets picked up by his new father, Worf and Dax are lingering around nearby. When Kurn passes them he asks Worf if he's also part of his family, but Worf says he has no family.

--

This is a very okay episode with a lot of things going for it, but also a good number of shortcomings.

The big problem I have with this episode is that in my opinions, the resolution at the end isn't one. Science fiction frequently likes to bring up the question of what is a person and what is death, and what are ethical consequences of that. And personally I firmly of the opinion that there is absolutely no ethical difference between killing a person and erasing a mind. They still annihilated Kurn, they just decided to put a new blank person into the body. That they recycled the body to create a new person doesn't change anything about the fact that they killed Kurn. Whether it was right to kill Kurn or not is a completely separate question, but their idea of a third option isn't really one. It's presented as if they found a creative solution for an ethical problem, but they really just went with one of the bad options and tell themselves they didn't. I assume there are people who after serious consideration come to the conclusion that philosophically speaking they did not kill Kurn, and for those people this resolution might work better. But I think this is wrong. I also think they should have let Kurn chose to die, but that's a whole different discussion.
What is utter baffling is that Bashir only asks once if Worf is really sure before he destroys Kurn's mind, but seems to be perfectly fine to perform the procedure without ever asking the patient's consent while the patient is completely capable of making and communicating decisions once he wakes up in the morning. In no way would that be legal in a society based on 20th century Euro-American culture, and in addition we had more than enough episodes about Bashir unwaveringly sticking to his principles. Even if he would think that Kurn would probably prefer that outcome, there just is no way that he would do that without having Kurn's explicit consent. That's perhaps actually the worst offense of the whole episode.

Dax makes a great supporting character this episode. Her role is pretty small, but also extremely vital. One thing her involvement in this episode does is to give her screen time to build a relationship with Worf. Sparring in Klingon martial arts and Dax being flirty about it has happened before. But this episode has nothing flirty about it after the first scene. The rest of the episode Dax is genuinly trying to help a friend with a problem with consideration for any gains for herself. It's also the most seriously she engages with the difficult aspects of Klingon culture since S2E19 Blood Oath. In S4E9 The Sword of Khaless, she was simply on an adventure with her Klingon buddies and was only concerned with their personal bickering but not with what impact their quest would have on Klingon society. This episode we have her once again having to come to term with how Klingons are dealing with death. When she realizes they are planning to kill Kurn, she instinctively tries to prevent it and then save Kurn when he's mortally wounded. And Worf doesn't blame her for it in any way, understanding that she followed the instincts of her upbringing first before sitting down and considering how Klingons would feel about the situation. And later he admits that he's actually glad she did, though he doesn't say it in those words. But I think the really interesting choice she makes is when she goes to apologize to Worf about having interfered without thinking about Worf's and Kurn's wishes. She doesn't say that she hopes Worf isn't angry with her for doing it and ask if this is going to be something that gets between them. But instead she seems to say that she made a mistake to interfere and regrets to have done it. And that seems to be just hours after the incident. When it came to the question if she could actually go to the Albino to kill him, it was a big moral problem for her for a good time, and she didn't feel good after helping her friends to do it. But here she seems to have made up her mind. If Kurn wants to to honorably killed and Word agrees to do that, then she supports it. It was only a moment of panic that made her act otherwise.
We also get a moment where she tries to defend Worf a little bit before Sisko, and it's one of the few moment's where Sisko tells her to shut up and stay out. And there's neither a clear indication if she stays quiet because she doesn't want to fight Sisko, or because is not asking for the support she was tentatively offering. She seemed to be there just in case her help was wanted from either of them, but when they didn't she push herself into the discussion.

Kira's and O'Brien's activities this episode barely count as a B-plot. But what is there is quite good material and the two stories propperly connect when Worf and Kurn go to get the files about the minefield. There's been a number of episode where there was a B-plot that never actually touches the A-plot even once. I think it can still be done better than just a single scene, but this is fine. Having the Klingons trying to secretly mine the Bajoran border is also a good way to gradually build up for a larger confrontation down the line.

I've been thinking about the plausibility of mining a star system, and it's actually not that completely impossible. You don't have to build a complete sphere of mines around a whole system. Since most systems would go from one star to another you only have to put mines along the lines connecting Bajor's sun to other stars with inhabited planets around them. That would cut down the area that has to be mines to a tiny fraction. However, even that would only work on ships that are surprised. Nothing would stop ships from approaching the system in an arc and come in from a random direction, once it is know that the standard vectors are not safe. And given the fact that planets move around their star, those vectors still would result in mind bogglingly enormous areas.
But all of that would only matter if the mines can home in on their target from thousands or millions of kilometers away. Which is not what they seem to be talking about here. When they blow up the minefield, the whole section seems to be less than a square kilometer in size. And they also said the damaged Klingon ship probably was hit by an explosion going off 10 km away from it. But when they detonate the minefield, the ships that decloak undamaged seem to be probably just 100 meters away. I don't need my space adventures to be hard sci-fi, and I understand the need to get things on the screen so that viewers can see what's going on. But I really would appreciate putting at least some token effort in trying to understand how space works.

This episode is solid and counts as what I consider a good base line for episodes that don't make it into the exceptional category. But anything below this quality is something that shouldn't be happening.

[Traab]

Its really not possible to mine space. Its just too freaking vast and three dimensional to do it in. Minefields only work if there arent other ways more or less as effective to travel through. When you have ships capable of moving light years in an instant, your mines would have to blanket a cube trillions of miles in size to even be a roadblock once they discover the first mine on the standard path. You could blockade a single planet with mines, though its still one heck of a lot of explosives, but it would work. But stopping anyone already in space? Nope. It can work in star wars because hyperspace lanes are a thing. Easy choke points to seal off to prevent interstellar travel. Star trek has warp drives which are far less limited.

[Dragonus45]

Other series also make it work by changing what a "mine" really is. Like Honnorverse where mines are basically just giant one use lasers beams with fairly good range. Although even then they are more a hindrance to slow people down and often rely on having a basic idea what direction a person might be coming from.

[Xyril]

It's presented as if they found a creative solution for an ethical problem, but they really just went with one of the bad options and tell themselves they didn't.

Yeah, I don't think anything about Michael Dorn's acting, or anyone else's reaction in the episode, seemed to have "presented as if they found a creative solution for an ethical problem." Worf found a ****ty option that he thought he could live with slightly better than the ****tier options. That's it.

Worf has been away from Klingons for most of his life. While this hasn't caused him to question whether ritual suicide might be the right option for himself under some circumstances or to hesitate at all putting himself dangerous, borderline suicidal situations, it has generally caused him to adopt much more human sensibilities when it comes to someone else doing it and leaving him behind.

[The New Bruceski]

You couldn't mine a whole border of space, but I can see (assuming handwaving engineering about range and such) mining the most likely travel route. If traffic (either peacetime traders you want to be able to shut down or a potential invasion fleet) are going from point A to point B it's unlikely they're going to take a wide curve. Doesn't work as well once people know the minefield's there, but like conventional minefields in 2D space you can position it to make detouring around it a hassle or (back in the old days, I think it's banned by international treaty now) just not tell anyone and use it as an ambush rather than deterrence.

[Traab]

You couldn't mine a whole border of space, but I can see (assuming handwaving engineering about range and such) mining the most likely travel route. If traffic (either peacetime traders you want to be able to shut down or a potential invasion fleet) are going from point A to point B it's unlikely they're going to take a wide curve. Doesn't work as well once people know the minefield's there, but like conventional minefields in 2D space you can position it to make detouring around it a hassle or (back in the old days, I think it's banned by international treaty now) just not tell anyone and use it as an ambush rather than deterrence.

It would work as an ambush, but honestly, as soon as it blew up a ship it would lose its effectiveness. Again, we are talking vessels than can travel literal lightyears in short order. Thats light years worth of territory needing to be fully mined to make them waste a minute moving around them. I just did a quick search, its honestly hard to tell as its rather confusing how warp seems to work from series to series, but in Enterprise at warp 4.5 they travel a distance of earth to neptune and back in 6 minutes or nearly 60 au. Now imagine trying to fill that much space in three dimensions with explosives all for the benefit of wasting 6 whole minutes of a frankly slow moving starship to go around the mined area. Thats why mines are useless outside of blockading a single planet or other choke point in star trek.

[Yora]

Even the idea of blockading a planet seems rather ridiculous, given the technology often shown to accomplish it.

The only good space mines I can think of are later in Deep Space Nine, and one in Babylon 5. No promises yet, but I expect to be covering that one next year. It depends on how exhausted I am from this one in January.

[Arcane_Secrets]

[QUOTE=russdm;24089401We have been shown that there is more than just one queen.[/QUOTE]

I think being the Borg Queen is sort of like a program that the collective runs whenever one dies and then they recreate another one. Or I think some species of social insects designate a new queen among the workers when the original queen dies or gets killed so that way the colony keeps going.

btw, Kai Winn/Vedic Winn is probably one of the best characterized villains I've ever seen whether she was in Star Trek: DS9 or not imo.

[Cikomyr]

I have a pet theory that kind of ties together multiple string of inconsistencies across the franchise: the idea of Warp Highways.

If any of you ever played Star Drive, but you could build relays across interstellar space that would make Warp travel faster. Since it was established in the first episode that a DS9-Earth journey would usually take 3 months, but that in later seasons it clearly takes less, it's possible Starfleet and the Federation can deploy and maintain Warp Highways that allows for faster speed, but at the condition of following specific paths.

Paths that can be mined.

In a way, it would also explain why in The Way of the Warrior, DS9 detects the Klingon reinforcement earlier than Starfleet's, but know Starfleet's will arrive earlier. My pet theory would say the Klingons came from the Cardassian Empire, where no accelerator was deployed.

[Rodin]

Even the idea of blockading a planet seems rather ridiculous, given the technology often shown to accomplish it.

The only good space mines I can think of are later in Deep Space Nine, and one in Babylon 5. No promises yet, but I expect to be covering that one next year. It depends on how exhausted I am from this one in January.

There's three good uses in the Honorverse.

The first time we see them used it's by fast-moving minelayers that lay the mines once an enemy fleet is already in motion. Honor's fleet deliberately lures the enemy into the minefield by flying through it herself, relying on the IFF so that the mines don't detonate.

The second time is when they're used to protect a prison planet - not from outside assault, but to prevent any prisoners from escaping. The mines are backed up by longer ranged weaponry in case the prisoners somehow get through.

The third time is something that is only discussed - mining a wormhole exit. If a fleet manages to secure one end of a wormhole before the enemy can get word through to the defending fleet on the other side, they can mine the entrance heavily because they know EXACTLY where the enemy fleet will come out. And a starship that exits the wormhole after the first is destroyed is likely to hit the wreckage of the first, and so on and so forth.

The general opinion in that universe seems to be that mines have a very niche role, but can still prove useful every now and then.

---

On the actual focus of the episode, I can't help but compare the resolution to that of Babylon 5. In B5, wiping someone's memory and putting in a new personality is considered the HARSHEST punishment possible, and only exists because it's slightly preferable to an outright death penalty. They do a whole episode on it, and it's a heart-wrenching one. That DS9 treated it so casually made me turn the episode off on the spot. It's a shame, because otherwise I thought it was quite a good dilemma.

[Cikomyr]

That DS9 treated it so casually made me turn the episode off on the spot. It's a shame, because otherwise I thought it was quite a good dilemma.

Casually?

It was to stop the self destructive behavior of a man who wanted to die, only because nobody would grant him his wish.

Sure, as Yora mentioned, maybe they seem to go at it a bit fast in the episode, but it's not something they do every tuesday