Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 86
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Note: This may be better suited to the Homebrew forum, not sure, so if a mod wants to move it there that's cool

    So, people have talked about all the problems with two-weapon fighting in 5th edition, from my understanding, it's pretty well established that it starts off very strong, but is out-scaled as characters get extra attacks, uses a potentially valuable bonus action, and has pretty much the worst feat support out of any style. It's good for rogues, and can be made to work for paladins, but twf is not one of their fighting styles, requiring either multiclassing or houserules.

    Now all those threads are pretty old, and quite a ways before I started posting in this forum, so if anyone has any good fixes they've found or made, feel free to show them off here! I've brainstormed a few potential solutions, but I'm not completely satisfied with any of them, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Goals: Reduce TWF's early-game power, while allowing it to scale properly in relation to other styles. Ideally, there should also be decent feat support, and I'd like to keep the "bonus action to make one attack" thing for a variety of reasons.

    Spoiler: Changes to Two-Weapon Fighting
    Show
    Add the following to the Two-Weapon Fighting Section:

    As your martial capabilities improve, the strength of your Offhand attacks does as well. When you use Two-Weapon Fighting to attack with a light melee weapon as a bonus action (from now on referred to as an Offhand attack), you deal additional damage equal to the weapon's damage die multiplied by the number of extra attacks the Extra Attack feature gives you. (so with a handaxe and Extra Attack, your bonus-action attack would deal 2d6, 3d6 with Extra Attack (2), etc.)

    The reasoning here is to allow the bonus action attack to scale along perfectly with extra attacks, while avoiding weird interactions that could be caused by allowing you to make more than one attack as a bonus action (namely, Paladins' improved divine smite and things like hex or hunter's mark).


    Spoiler: Replacements for Two-Weapon Fighting Style
    Show
    Paladins also have access to the two-weapon fighting style
    You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

    While wielding a weapon in each hand, at least one of which is light, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and may use Two-Weapon Fighting to make an Offhand attack (note that all other rules for Offhand Attacks still apply)

    (representing the defensive benefits of using two weapons. This in total works out to essentially +1 to damage and +1 to AC)

    Note: the text in parentheses would not be in the final version, it's just clarifying some things in case the intent isn't clear

    Mathwise: With the scaling, +1 AC, one non-light weapon version of the fighting style, your damage is identical to a single weapon that does 1d8+1d6+Mod at the cost of your bonus action, even as you gain extra attacks. This works out to -0.33 to damage and +1AC over GWF, which taking into account the ability to use dex, marginally better ranged capability, and bonus action cost seems about fair. It's worse than PAM with defense, but PAM is an extra feat that's already extremely strong early on, so I find that acceptable.

    EDITS: Some formatting
    Removed the possibility of getting +2 AC. Produces too much overlap with shields and is probably a tad too strong
    Re-added +2 AC bonus possibility. Probably should wait for more feedback before just removing it (removed again)
    Did a big rework, now FS allows one non-light weapon
    Cut out sections relating to outdated versions
    Cleaned up text slightly to reduce length
    Moved Extra Attack scaling to new section.
    Allowed Paladins to take the style
    Reworded Fighting Style


    Coming (hopefully very) Soon: Dual Wielder Revised!
    Spoiler: Dual Wielder Revised
    Show
    Note: the following is probably not remotely balanced, it's more of a example of the concept

    Goal: What we're looking for is to be doing more damage to multiple targets, and/or provide defense from such. With that in mind, maybe something like:

    You have mastered fighting with multiple weapons, a potent asset when outnumbered, and can using the weakness of one to strike at all.

    When you use a bonus action to make an Offhand Attack, you may instead make an Offhand attack against any number of creatures within 5 ft. of you.

    When you take an opportunity attack, you may instead make an Offhand Attack against any number of creatures within 5 ft. of you, including the creature that provoked an opportunity attack.

    (ideally, this should not work with Polearm Master, as you need to use a light weapon for your Offhand attack, and PAM is only supposed to let you make an opportunity attack with the actual polearm.

    Comments: Either of these encourage a TWF character to get into the thick of it and allows you to do things like clear off weak mooks as you carve away at their boss, or finish off enemies near death to focus on fresh targets. You can hurl your self into a crowd of enemies, deal consistent damage to everyone in melee range, and punish all of them if one tries to escape. I kinda worry a little about how effective this is with crits (maybe on a champion with elven accuracy? Hell, maybe it would make the champion more competitive)

    Mathwise: I really have no idea how to evaluate this one. Calculations would be much appreciated. Obviously (at least with two or more extra attacks) this gives opportunity attacks more bite, and one monster running away from you can deal damage to all of them. Aside from that it's hard to tell how. It's way less useful to someone who doesn't have extra attacks.

    EDIT: added ability mod to damage as a possibility (now removed, was kinda boring)
    Added offhand damage AOE
    Reworded reaction AOE to not interact with cavalier or PAM
    Allowed special attack to crit
    Just had it so you can make an offhand attack against everything. Much simpler


    Same as before, critiques and suggestions appreciated, though do note that the revised feat is far more conceptual in nature than the revised fighting style

    Overall Edits: Moved offhand scaling to separate section.
    Cut out lots of chaff from certain text
    Bolded actual changes for clarity.

    NOTE As this is a work in progress, edits will be very frequent, chances are if you read it one day it will be notably different the next. I'll try to keep track of all edits though.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2019-06-05 at 09:44 AM.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    (probably not necessary, but reserved just in case)

    Okay, this is probably a good place to put some of the pressing or frequently-proposed problems, and some summaries of responses or acknowledgements.

    1. TWF isn't under/overpowered: Okay, so definitely in many cases it really isn't, but it has some notable troublespots (Tier 1 it's blatantly too strong) and major issues that make it an unattractive option for many classes. I can put detailed math here if enough people request it.
    EDIT: also, as kinda mentioned in the thread, if you allow variant human, then Polearm Master allows you to beat TWF at its own game right out of the gate. So even in terms of Tier 1 strength it can be beaten. Once you get to the point where feats are being taken, or when you do everything possible to optimize, TWF really just can't win. It doesn't need to, but overall its power is just so all over the place it's hard to say it's balanced properly.

    2. This solution is overcomplicated: Yeah it's way too verbose. I'm not happy with the wording and still very uncertain on the mechanics (though I'm pretty set on the scaling-offhand-attack thing). Not really sure how to reword the first part, and not really sure what exactly is good for the second part, but so far there hasn't really been anything I've seen that solves as many of the issues (as I see them) with TWF as this.

    suplee215 brought up that a big problem is that many classes that could benefit a lot from TWF don't actually get the fighting style. Paladins honestly should get it, especially considering how Polearm Master allows similar shenanigans with smite and IDS. Barbarians and rogues don't really get a FS in the first place, and not having one definitely fits with the idea of a barbarian. Rogues on the other hand really don't need the boost to damage in Tier 1, they already get a ton out of TWF even without the FS, so giving it them one should probably be reserved for a higher level, if at all.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2019-05-31 at 07:36 AM.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    In my games I have worked with these changes


    When you draw a weapon you can draw two as the same object interaction so long as both are drawn at the same time.

    No longer needs a bonus action. You can make that off hand attack when ever you make an attack using an action on your turn.


    You automatically gain attribute to damage on the off hand attack when you gain the extra attack feature (or similar).

    Fighting style allows you to wield non-light weapons with two weapon fighting.

    The two weapon fighting feat gives the following benefits

    1. +1 AC
    2. If you take the attack action on you turn you can make an additional attack with the off hand weapon as a bonus action.
    3. When you make an opportunity attack you can make an attack with your off hand weapon in addition to the standard opportunity attack.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    I'm not really familiar with the fighting style being under powered to be honest, can you help me understand how it doesn't scale out? Adding 4-5 mod damage to your bonus action attack is solid and the feat allows for a sizing up of damage die, better mechanical support for drawing and a bonus to AC. For Extra Attack the whole purpose TWF is to give an additional attack, which it fulfills still. I can't think of a class that would be melee centric that would have a consistent use bonus action that would interfere with it and any BA that are acquired can just be weighed up as do I need/want to do X this turn? If not the stick with the norm of TWF.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Subang Jaya, Malaysia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I can't think of a class that would be melee centric that would have a consistent use bonus action that would interfere with it and any BA that are acquired can just be weighed up as do I need/want to do X this turn? If not the stick with the norm of TWF.
    Hexblade warlock comes to mind, so many uses for bonus action besides Hex/Hexblade Curse.

    Rangers with Hunters Mark.

    Paladin with Smite spells, and Vow of Amnity/Hunters Mark (Oath of Vengeance)

    Berserker Barbarian's Frenzy straight up does not work with TWF.

    And many more, you don't have to look very hard. This is not even counting certain magic items that require bonus action to activate (like Flametongue).

    My personal experience with TWF was with the UA Mystic Soul Knife. I had so many uses for bonus action that i was practically just attacking with main hand only.
    Last edited by Jerrykhor; 2019-05-31 at 03:41 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    I say remove the Two-Weapon Fighting style completely. It adds power early game and gives no scaling, so it works against us on both accounts. You could instead add general scaling to the rules of Two-Weapon Fighting, regardless of who's using it:

    Two-Weapon Fighting
    When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it. At 5th level, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of your bonus attack. PHB, p195
    Then tweak Duelist to give its bonus damage to your main-hand weapon. Now you have scaling and a choice of going 'parrying dagger' with Defensive Fihting Style or 'more damage' with Duelist Fighting Style.

    You don't have to worry about drawing, due to the "Use an Object" rules:
    Use an Object
    You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack...PHB, p193
    "
    Summary: Instead of making up an entire new rules set and options, just add one line to the general rules of TWF, and remove a couple of words from a fighting style. This is much cleaner, and arrives at the same conclusion.

    To see how clean this solution is, you can write it up like this:

    Duelist: Now applies to all single-handed weapons wielded in main hand, works with shielld or two-weapon fighting
    Two-Weapon Fighting general rule: Now adds ability modifier to damage of your off-hand attack at 5th level.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-05-31 at 05:02 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    My take at it would be to just remove Two weapon fighint as a whole and go for a more "abstract" weapon system.

    We already use HPs and AC as abstracts systems, why not do the same with weapons ?

    here is my suggestion :
    any simple weapon is 1D8, Two handed + 1 free property
    martial weapon are 1D10 two handed + 1 free property

    You can add as many properties as you want by downgrading dice size.

    Properties :
    - Heavy : Increase dice size by one
    - ranged : 100/300 range, uses dex (or whatever I haven't doublechecked the number on that)
    - Versatile : can be used with only 1 hand by downgrading dice size.
    - thrown (verstile weapons only) : can be thrown at a 20/60 range
    - finesse : can use dex, a weapon that is both versatile and finesse weapon can only be used with 1 hand
    - reach : 10ft reach
    - loading (ranged weapons only) : increase damage dice by 2

    a pair of shortswords is a martial two handed finesse weapon. for example.

    Fighting styles becomes :
    Defense (unchanged)
    Offense : change weapon dice : D12=> 2D6, D10 => D4+D6, D8=> 2D4, and reroll 1 and 2s
    Protection (unchaned)
    archery (unchanged)

    feats like PAM and GWM need a bit of tweaking that I'll expand later if you are interested.
    To not break melee rogue you need to give them the "dagger in the back feature",

    "dagger in the back" : when you miss with a melee attack that would qualify for sneak attack, you can as a bonus action make a melee attack that deal 1D4 + STR or DEX piercing damage.
    Last edited by DevilMcam; 2019-05-31 at 04:50 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    *snip*
    This is the 5e forums, which means we are looking at a fix for the masses: Clean, simple and effective. Your suggestion does look interesting, but it's not really minimal. Overhauling entire aspects of the game isn't really in the spirit of this forum :/

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    if you want a 1 line version of it :

    Treat dual wielding shrotswords as using a finesse greatsword, most of the things are fine that way
    Last edited by DevilMcam; 2019-05-31 at 05:03 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    if you want a 1 line version of it :

    Treat dual wielding shortswords as using a greatsword, most of the things are fine that way
    It works fine, but it doesn't line up with the design goal of two-weapon fighting. In any FRPG, you pick two weapon fighting because you want to percieve and display your character as a fast-attacker, being able to land multiple quick attacks in the time it takes most characters to make one big attack. It's important when redisigning a feature to keep the feeling of the feature intact.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    yeah, but the attack action is not "I swing my sword" and extra attack is not "Now I can swing twice"

    even with a greatsword a single attack is a lot of jab stabs swing feints, and eventually one connects.

    The fantaisy trope of two weapons fighting isn't actually very accurate, more weapons usually doesn't means more attacks

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    The fantasy trope of two weapons fighting isn't actually very accurate, more weapons usually doesn't means more attacks
    This is actually quite true. I just recently had to explain to my entire group that "hit points" are not "life points". How every attack is an attempted lethal strike, and only through the use of hit points do you manage to turn them into glancing blows. I was met with disbelief until I pointed out that no man, fantasy or otherwise, can take 5 arrows in the chest and just shrug it if with an hour of rest. xD

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Spoiler: Dork Forge
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I'm not really familiar with the fighting style being under powered to be honest, can you help me understand how it doesn't scale out? Adding 4-5 mod damage to your bonus action attack is solid and the feat allows for a sizing up of damage die, better mechanical support for drawing and a bonus to AC. For Extra Attack the whole purpose TWF is to give an additional attack, which it fulfills still. I can't think of a class that would be melee centric that would have a consistent use bonus action that would interfere with it and any BA that are acquired can just be weighed up as do I need/want to do X this turn? If not the stick with the norm of TWF.

    Okay, to summarize, the Extra Attack feature doesn't improve your offhand attack at all, only your main-hand, which is by itself is obviously weaker than attacks from a Duelist longsword or GWF greatsword. It does start off very strong, but even after the first Extra Attack it starts to taper off. For fighters, even three attacks makes it objectively worse
    Mathwise, assuming +3 strength or dex:
    (1d6+3)x2 averages out to 13
    1d8+3+2 averages 9.5
    2d6 rerolled +3 averages 11.33
    So advantage clearly to TWF at first, not to mention the benefits of having more granular attacks to reduce overkill. An ASI to your attack stat pushes these numbers to 15, 10.5, and 12.33, again TWF still rules. However, extra attack changes things:
    (1d6+4)x3 averages 22.5
    (1d8+4+2)x2 averages 21
    (2d6RR+4)x2 averages 24.67
    GWF pulls solidly ahead, and Dueling is nipping at TWF's heels, while also having +2 AC. This gap only widens as characters get more attacks.
    EDIT: A second ASI would push these numbers to 25.5, 23, and 26.67. Slightly better for TWF, but not really enough to change the conclusion. It's hardly bad with one Extra Attack, arguably being the most balanced at that point, but it's still slightly subpar imo, and at every other point it's either too strong or too weak.

    In terms of feats, Dual Wielder in practice is actually slightly less impactful than an ASI to Dex (+1 average damage per attack, and +1 AC, but NOT +1 to hit). When compared to GWM, which is powerful enough that many take it instead of an ASI, it's really not that significant
    Spoiler: Bjark
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I say remove the Two-Weapon Fighting style completely. It adds power early game and gives no scaling, so it works against us on both accounts. You could instead add general scaling to the rules of Two-Weapon Fighting, regardless of who's using it:


    Then tweak Duelist to give its bonus damage to your main-hand weapon. Now you have scaling and a choice of going 'parrying dagger' with Defensive Fihting Style or 'more damage' with Duelist Fighting Style.

    You don't have to worry about drawing, due to the "Use an Object" rules:

    Summary: Instead of making up an entire new rules set and options, just add one line to the general rules of TWF, and remove a couple of words from a fighting style. This is much cleaner, and arrives at the same conclusion.

    To see how clean this solution is, you can write it up like this:

    Duelist: Now applies to all single-handed weapons wielded in main hand, works with shielld or two-weapon fighting
    Two-Weapon Fighting general rule: Now adds ability modifier to damage of your off-hand attack at 5th level.

    The object interaction rules do not work like that. Wish they did, but they don't. You can interact with (draw) one weapon for free, but the second one would take your action. The "same action" statement is used as an example of your ONE free object interaction on your turn. The intent is also clear since Dual Wielder gives the explicit benefit of drawing or stowing two weapons for free on your turn, which would be completely unnecessary if you could do that anyway.
    The problem with scaling TWF based on level is that it affects even classes that don't have extra attacks, and it for Fighters, it just delays the scaling issue until later. Rogues don't particularly need another reason to use TWF, it's already very good for them.
    Using Dueling that way is probably a decent solution, but it's also a little boring, doesn't solve the scaling issue by itself, and effectively turns it into two fighting styles in one. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not ideal.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2019-05-31 at 05:47 AM.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    My biggest issue is it just doesn't feel like the right classes get access to it. If paladins, barbarians (non bersekers), rogues, and even oddballs like Bladesingers and Pact of the Blade warlocks got access to two weapon fighting they'll use it in a heart beat. It will be a less feat heavy (and therefore better for MAD) way to get an extra attack for their extra damage bonus (Improved Divine Smite, Rage, adding modifiers). The ROgue will love TWF just because they often use a second attack anyways to secure sneak attack in case of miss. As it stands the two/three classes with access to it (Fighter, Ranger, Sword Bard) are ill suited. A Fighter's main focus of damage is extra attacks which outclass the damage bonus of +5 in higher levels (at best TWF adds +5 to your damage and starting at level 11 a fighter can add +6 thanks to Duelist style and still have a bonus action). Ranger's Hunter Mark and other ways to use bonus action are required to make the class function. I don't see anything wrong with Sword Bard for it but it is still lack luster. I think the Revised Ranger with the added damage to favored enemy will make Ranger enjoy the style a lot more. But the main issue is just the classes who get it don't need it. And while those classes can always multiclass, you could just as easily take Polearm Master on most of those classes instead for the same exact thing.
    Last edited by suplee215; 2019-05-31 at 05:38 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    if you want a 1 line version of it :

    Treat dual wielding shrotswords as using a finesse greatsword, most of the things are fine that way
    I'd considered this a long time ago, but I really don't consider it an ideal solution. If anything, weapon combat in 5e is lacking in variety (though I'm fine with the amount it has), and this would collapse that mechanical range even further. Also, thematically, the second weapon adding damage to the first one isn't really that much more realistic, since having a shortsword in one hand doesn't give the other shortsword more killing power behind it. I guess it could model a more aggressive series of blows in totality, but the image doesn't come across very well. Plus, it pretty much makes greatswords pointless, and doesn't do anything to explain how it works with thrown weapons.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  16. - Top - End - #16
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    In many cases TWF is not nearly as broken as people make it out to be. Hunters Mark for example scales really well with the extra attack. Sure, it eats your bonus action in horde fights, but GWM overkills more often in horde fights.

    TWF allows for dex fighting, which is a significant advantage in itself. Higher Initiative potentially allows for a whole round of extra damage in combat. And that damage is dealt in the most important round of combat (an important detail people overvaluing the paladin tend to miss btw).

    TWF only starts to fall off when the third attack at level 11 comes into play. Given the example of a Gloomstalker Ranger going for max dex and Elven Accuracy (approximate equivalent of an optimized GWM human Gloomstalker) he is only ~10-15% behind in damage by level 11, far from game breaking.

    Magic items tend to favor the GWM though, depending on how many items you hand out that provide additional static bonuses.

    Fighters are probably further behind when doing TWF, as they do not have access to static damage bonuses on top of their extra attack (like Hunter's Mark). Two handed weapons also tend to scale better with maneuvers. But I consider Fighters too boring to do the math.
    Last edited by ChiefBigFeather; 2019-05-31 at 05:54 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    I drop the "no modifier" part (which also eliminates a source of confusion for newbies), and make the Fighting Style merge it into the Attack action instead of a BA.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Spoiler: Chief
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    In many cases TWF is not nearly as broken as people make it out to be. Hunters Mark for example scales really well with the extra attack. Sure, it eats your bonus action in horde fights, but GWM overkills more often in horde fights.

    TWF allows for dex fighting, which is a significant advantage in itself. Higher Initiative potentially allows for a whole round of extra damage in combat. And that damage is dealt in the most important round of combat (an important detail people overvaluing the paladin tend to miss btw).

    TWF only starts to fall off when the third attack at level 11 comes into play. Given the example of a Gloomstalker Ranger going for max dex and Elven Accuracy (approximate equivalent of an optimized GWM human Gloomstalker) he is only ~10-15% behind in damage by level 11, far from game breaking.

    Magic items tend to favor the GWM though, depending on how many items you hand out that provide additional static bonuses.

    Fighters are probably further behind when doing TWF, as they do not have access to static damage bonuses on top of their extra attack (like Hunter's Mark). Two handed weapons also tend to scale better with maneuvers. But I consider Fighters too boring to do the math.


    The ability to use dex as opposed to strength is a good point. However, I think that the use of a bonus action, which can be in high demand, somewhat offsets that. It probably should be about equal or weaker than GWF.
    One major thing is that Polearm Master with spear-and-shield is notably superior to TWF with Dual Wielder even for characters with only one or two attacks. It does everything TWF does, only slightly better and with a reaction attack added on top. Again, since that takes strength rather than dex it's not too much of a problem, but the niche of TWF is rather small indeed.
    As for rangers, what TWF is competing with isn't really GWM, but Archery and Sharpshooter, at which point you have to get into things like average damage vs a given AC to really get a good read. It probably does decently, but needing that first round bonus action (and one every time you kill a target) gives me the feeling you'll be losing out on damage when you need it most: as soon as possible, as you said.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    I drop the "no modifier" part (which also eliminates a source of confusion for newbies), and make the Fighting Style merge it into the Attack action instead of a BA.
    This solves the problem of using bonus actions, but (in addition to the fact that I don't think that needs to change) it fails to address the issue of scaling, and makes it even more powerful in Tier 1 and for rogues, almost the opposite of one of my goals here.

    I know I've mostly just been disagreeing with everyone here, but I would like to say that I'm loving the engagement! You're all putting down valuable stuff here.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    While I know 5e goes for simplicity, I feel that twf is an oddball because it's competition with 2 handed fighting, and while people might just be thinking 'no problem, 2 handers for strength, two weapons for Dex, it's opposite to reality, where high strength is needed. There's a reason that the nagatana is the weapon of choice for female samurai.

    I'd be looking at giving twf a shield bonus for melee, with the option for a damage bonus instead, essentially merge dueling style with defence style for melee only.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxius View Post
    While I know 5e goes for simplicity, I feel that twf is an oddball because it's competition with 2 handed fighting, and while people might just be thinking 'no problem, 2 handers for strength, two weapons for Dex, it's opposite to reality, where high strength is needed. There's a reason that the nagatana is the weapon of choice for female samurai.

    I'd be looking at giving twf a shield bonus for melee, with the option for a damage bonus instead, essentially merge dueling style with defence style for melee only.
    I mean, this was pretty similar to my proposal for TWF FS to give +2 AC. And the other option (using non-light weapons) is a damage bonus instead.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    This solves the problem of using bonus actions, but (in addition to the fact that I don't think that needs to change) it fails to address the issue of scaling, and makes it even more powerful in Tier 1 and for rogues, almost the opposite of one of my goals here.
    I'd argue that if it failed at everything else, it succeeded at addressing scaling, simply because as you advance in level you get more and more uses for your bonus action, so not requiring it to TWF is more and more valuable.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    If TWF grant the same bonus as a shield, then a shield become irelevant, so that would not really fix the issue.

    I agree with AdAstra : the problem is when you compare it to PAM.
    There is almost no situation where defense + PAM is not superior to TWFS+ TWF. and the "you get to use dex" part don't really matter most of the time because having STR let you shove and use Plate armor
    Last edited by DevilMcam; 2019-05-31 at 06:56 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    I'd argue that if it failed at everything else, it succeeded at addressing scaling, simply because as you advance in level you get more and more uses for your bonus action, so not requiring it to TWF is more and more valuable.
    I guess you could argue that the value of the style itself scales, but that kinda has more to do with eliminating a weakness than providing a strength, not that it needs more strength in Tier 1 as it is. Plus, I think the TWF attack requiring a bonus action is a valuable "gate" of sorts to reduce the amount of other features it interacts with. As it is, even if your changes made it balanced past lvl 5, your changes make it incredibly strong before that, even moreso than it already was. Ex: TWF fighter could action surge to get 4 1d6+3 attacks at lvl 2. a lvl 3 TWF hunter ranger could use hunter's mark to make two 2d6+3 attacks per turn, three with horde slayer.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    My take at it would be to just remove Two weapon fighint as a whole and go for a more "abstract" weapon system.

    We already use HPs and AC as abstracts systems, why not do the same with weapons ?

    here is my suggestion :
    any simple weapon is 1D8, Two handed + 1 free property
    martial weapon are 1D10 two handed + 1 free property

    You can add as many properties as you want by downgrading dice size.

    Properties :
    - Heavy : Increase dice size by one
    - ranged : 100/300 range, uses dex (or whatever I haven't doublechecked the number on that)
    - Versatile : can be used with only 1 hand by downgrading dice size.
    - thrown (verstile weapons only) : can be thrown at a 20/60 range
    - finesse : can use dex, a weapon that is both versatile and finesse weapon can only be used with 1 hand
    - reach : 10ft reach
    - loading (ranged weapons only) : increase damage dice by 2

    a pair of shortswords is a martial two handed finesse weapon. for example.

    Fighting styles becomes :
    Defense (unchanged)
    Offense : change weapon dice : D12=> 2D6, D10 => D4+D6, D8=> 2D4, and reroll 1 and 2s
    Protection (unchaned)
    archery (unchanged)

    feats like PAM and GWM need a bit of tweaking that I'll expand later if you are interested.
    To not break melee rogue you need to give them the "dagger in the back feature",

    "dagger in the back" : when you miss with a melee attack that would qualify for sneak attack, you can as a bonus action make a melee attack that deal 1D4 + STR or DEX piercing damage.
    I didn't really give this a good look at first, sorry. While it's interesting, this is a revamp of 5e's weapon system in its entirety, not really a change to TWF specifically. I would prefer changing as little about the rest of the game as possible, and changing basically everything falls way outside the scope of my intentions.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Yunru's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Well the other option we tried was making the fighting style only add half your modifier (rounded up), but allowing you to take the Attack action rather than just making a single attack.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    I feel like fighting styles are also the culprit here.
    You can tell because we are not trying to fix TWF, we're trying to fix the fighting style. TWF is a general rule, and class features should come as an afterthought. I think the goal should be to NOT have TWF dependant on a fighting style, and work from there. +2 damage is all you should really expect from a fighting style, some added utility or a small stat bonus. It should not be a tax or an opportunity cost. I'd love to be able to have 3 different characters at my table, all two-weapon fighting, and all have different fighting styles, and performing quite similarly. One has more defense, one has more damage, and one can throw knives with stunning accuracy.

    The means of manipulating the scaling of TWF are the following:
    • Allow/disallow non-light weapons
    • Alter the bonus damage scaling
    • Alter the action economy
    • Have TWF work differently "When you use your Extra Attack feature"


    Using these variables, we can make multiple very good versions of TWF, that pretty much do the same thing, but with different mechanics.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-05-31 at 07:28 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Dec 2016

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    What the style really needs is a better feat support to compete at higher levels when it sinks. Before level 11 the style is more than effective. I wonder if it's too broken but I thought of a feat that adds your proficiency bonus to damage if you are duel weilding two melee weapons. Perhaps make it only on the extra bonus action attack. Perhaps not. At lvl 20 in fighter with action surgery itll be an extra 54 damage which sounds like a lot but then great weapon fighter does an extra 80, 90 with pole arm master and bigger dice.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    What the style really needs is a better feat support to compete at higher levels when it sinks. Before level 11 the style is more than effective. I wonder if it's too broken but I thought of a feat that adds your proficiency bonus to damage if you are duel weilding two melee weapons. Perhaps make it only on the extra bonus action attack. Perhaps not. At lvl 20 in fighter with action surgery itll be an extra 54 damage which sounds like a lot but then great weapon fighter does an extra 80, 90 with pole arm master and bigger dice.
    Well look at that, guess this posted just as I was typing out the shiny new crappy rough draft of my Revised Dual Wielder feat! Feel free to check it out everyone, and as usual, I'm glad to hear people's thoughts and existing solutions!
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  30. - Top - End - #30
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting, and the fixing thereof, critiques and discussion welcome

    Here's the idea I had a while back.

    TWF style: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make while engaging in two-weapon fighting, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2.

    Dual wielder feat: Same +1 AC, same draw/stow two weapons, same can dual wield non-light weapons. New feature: On your turn, you may use your bonus action to use paired weapon attacks until the end of your turn.

    When you are using paired weapon attacks, when you take the Attack option with a light melee weapon your are holding in one hand, you may add the damage dice of a light melee weapon you are holding in your other hand. If you make the attack with strength, the melee weapons do not need to be light. No other on-hit effects, from the weapon or other features, are applied.

    Notes: This is basically strictly for fighters, especially during action surge. For everyone else, this is strictly worse, by design. The problem is if you don't have things consume a bonus action, they become very easy pick-ups that increase the damage of classes you didn't mean to touch (monks...).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •