Questionable Content XV: I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS! I Told You This Thread Was Weird

[Max_Killjoy]

And white privilege is something that strikes me as very difficult to write about "from the inside". It's difficult to look at the advantages you receive by existing as the person you were born as, and even more difficult to write about.

(And never mind that the whole concept distracts from where the real problems lie, by treating what should be the norm as it were the "exceptional privilege", and by treating the actual injustice as if it were the norm.)

I thought Faye's alcoholism in particular was handled very well. We see that she has a drinking problem and that her friends are concerned about it long before it came up as a storyline in its own right. We see her drinking at work and her coworkers being concerned about that long before it became a critical issue. And her drinking problem slowly got worse over time. We've seen her take a lot of effort to get clean and stay clean, and it still crops up as an issue in her daily life from time to time.

Even if it wasn't fully realistic (which I'm not saying either way as I don't know), the storytelling was pretty good and my opinion of it has only improved over time. Something that hasn't proven true of the social issues that Jeph has tried to tackle.

Faye's alcoholism is the one Issue I think he's done well with.

[Willie the Duck]

The idea that a neurodivergent character should stay the way she is, and never pick up new coping mechanisms or progress as a person just because she is 'the neurodivergent one', is appaling to me.

And I thought it was pretty clear from the moment Hannelore was introduced that she considered her obsessive-compulsive disorder a negative she wholeheartedly wished was gone, not a neutral difference.

This is pretty much the defining line (or I guess the line often used within various communities. I don't want to imply that I get to define things here). If you are suffering because of your given condition (as opposed to other people's reaction to it), then it is a disability, and trying to treat it* is both reasonable and laudable. If you're simply different, and not suffering in any way (except for other people's reactions, which is their issues), then it is merely atypicality/divergence and the appropriate response is to get the rest of society on board with stopping stigmatizing such.
*however one can, and exposure treatment can work for phobic tendencies and certain generalized anxiety disorders. My main issue with how this was done is that it was accomplished through montage/flashback, which obfuscates the hard, challenging work that it actually is.

And white privilege is something that strikes me as very difficult to write about "from the inside". It's difficult to look at the advantages you receive by existing as the person you were born as, and even more difficult to write about.

I thought Faye's alcoholism in particular was handled very well. We see that she has a drinking problem and that her friends are concerned about it long before it came up as a storyline in its own right. We see her drinking at work and her coworkers being concerned about that long before it became a critical issue. And her drinking problem slowly got worse over time. We've seen her take a lot of effort to get clean and stay clean, and it still crops up as an issue in her daily life from time to time.

Even if it wasn't fully realistic (which I'm not saying either way as I don't know), the storytelling was pretty good and my opinion of it has only improved over time. Something that hasn't proven true of the social issues that Jeph has tried to tackle.

Speaking as someone who has been through the issue of slow realization of alcoholism, letting people down, and seeking treatment, I deem the QC storyline to be... well handled given the limitation of a comic strip.

Jeph's real absolute fail-state attempts at social commentary really were (to my mind) police-civilian relations and white privilege. The first was an absolute sledgehammer-finesse issue with sides of very-special-episodism (exactly how much dirty cop plotline was in this strip prior?) along with the author himself perhaps not having the background to make nuanced arguments in support of his position. The second, well, even well thought through narratives purpose made for exploring said issues have a real problem with not coming off as hopelessly tin-eared. Trying to shoehorn those two issues into his 'wacky 20-somethings!' strip was biting off to much to chew. The other issues, particularly those that were inherent to the characters previous to his overall trend towards soapbox-standing, seem to have been handled better.

[Max_Killjoy]

This is pretty much the defining line (or I guess the line often used within various communities. I don't want to imply that I get to define things here). If you are suffering because of your given condition (as opposed to other people's reaction to it), then it is a disability, and trying to treat it* is both reasonable and laudable. If you're simply different, and not suffering in any way (except for other people's reactions, which is their issues), then it is merely atypicality/divergence and the appropriate response is to get the rest of society on board with stopping stigmatizing such.
*however one can, and exposure treatment can work for phobic tendencies and certain generalized anxiety disorders. My main issue with how this was done is that it was accomplished through montage/flashback, which obfuscates the hard, challenging work that it actually is.

My major issue is that the presentation comes across far too much as "oh, you just need to get over it" and "it's just a state of mind you can change, no big thing if you just do it".

[John Cribati]

(And never mind that the whole concept distracts from where the real problems lie, by treating what should be the norm as it were the "exceptional privilege", and by treating the actual injustice as if it were the norm.)

Here's a thought: there is actually no such thing as a constant "norm." Norms are relative to a person's environment and experiences.

People aren't "treating injustice as norms" so much as they're living through injustices as if they were the norm.

Your privilege is in your experiences.

[Keltest]

My major issue is that the presentation comes across far too much as "oh, you just need to get over it" and "it's just a state of mind you can change, no big thing if you just do it".

Isnt that pretty much exactly how exposure therapy works though? You work up enough will to do something, and then the next time it isn't as hard, and the next even less hard, and so on and so forth until its where you want it to be. Even if you never like it or get comfortable with it, you can do it.

[John Cribati]

That's also something to think about. With Hannelore, Jeph is telling the story of an OCD experience. The problem comes when people treat it as though it represents the OCD experience. Which is bollocks, because there is no "the" experience for anything.

[Max_Killjoy]

Here's a thought: there is actually no such thing as a constant "norm." Norms are relative to a person's environment and experiences.

People aren't "treating injustice as norms" so much as they're living through injustices as if they were the norm.

Your privilege is in your experiences.

*nevermind, refuting deeply offensive, toxic, backwards, wrong-headed concepts not worth the risk*

[John Cribati]

No.

The problem at hand IS that people are living through injustices.

Spoiler: Rant Inside

Show

"Privilege" tries to make not living through injustices the problem, as if people should feel lucky or blessed or special or even guilty for not having their rights violated, for not being subjected to injustice. It makes not being subjected to injustice, not having your rights violated, a "special unearned undeserved advantage". It's a backwards and toxic philosophy.

Spoiler: English is a funny thing sometimes...

Show

That's an interesting take. And, in fact, wrong.
See, when I say "you (in general) have privilege," what I mean is "You (general) don't have this disadvantage and I do; please listen to me and maybe see what you can do to help me." However, what you (personal) hear is "you (general) have an unfair advantage, so shut up."
Those are. Not the same thing.

[Willie the Duck]

My major issue is that the presentation comes across far too much as "oh, you just need to get over it" and "it's just a state of mind you can change, no big thing if you just do it".

Today's strip, individually, does dance close to this line. I am waiting to see how things unfold as a larger telling of the tale. Repeatedly, in this strip and others, I've had different takes on the same strip when viewed as they come out, and when I get to see them in an unfolding series. Daily webcomics, with these 24 breaks in between portions of an ongoing narrative, run this risk a lot. People often say things that present one way, that are clarified in the follow-up statement. So I am withholding judgement.

[Max_Killjoy]

*nevermind, refuting deeply offensive, toxic, backwards, wrong-headed concepts not worth the risk*

[Ibrinar]

You know if you think a topic violates forum rules you could not talk about it instead of talking about it and then declaring it should end because of forum rules.

[Max_Killjoy]

You know if you think a topic violates forum rules you could not talk about it instead of talking about it and then declaring it should end because of forum rules.

It's in the comic. People bring it up. It's a subject that immediately gets me ticked off. If I wasn't worried about the rules at all, I'd have a LOT more to say on the subject, including references and links. I've caught myself getting too far into it at this point, said to myself "OK, stop, you've let yourself get sucked into this", and I'm stopping now before I get way way too far into it.

Today's strip, individually, does dance close to this line. I am waiting to see how things unfold as a larger telling of the tale. Repeatedly, in this strip and others, I've had different takes on the same strip when viewed as they come out, and when I get to see them in an unfolding series. Daily webcomics, with these 24 breaks in between portions of an ongoing narrative, run this risk a lot. People often say things that present one way, that are clarified in the follow-up statement. So I am withholding judgement.

As someone who is very much not "neurotypical", I've heard "just get over it" or "it's all in your head" far too many times.

To the point that it's got me ticked off in general now just thinking about it.

[Lethologica]

I will note in passing that unfair privileges absolutely do exist. It is possible to be too lenient on a criminal, too favorable to a job candidate, too trusting of a stranger, if they're from the 'right' background.

I also think that 'privilege' is an academic term which doesn't fit well in the politics for which it is generally used due to ready confusion with the term's other meanings. Even if there is a case to be made that the term is being used correctly, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to use that term over something else. It's like insisting on sanctioning cetacean consumption instead of Saving the Whales. And the lack of clarity harms pretty much everyone in the discussion.

[Willie the Duck]

As someone who is very much not "neurotypical", I've heard "just get over it" or "it's all in your head" far too many times.

To the point that it's got me ticked off in general now just thinking about it.

It's fairly clear it's personal. Regardless, the linkage between what we see in this comic today and people saying things along the line of "just get over it" or "it's all in your head" are relatively tenuous. Hannelore declared that her initial breakthrough was realizing that the poop was going to be there whether she was grossed out or not. That's more defeating a phobia via appeal to duty than a direct denial of the problem. Only really the, "And if it doesn't matter whether you're grossed out, what's the point of being grossed out in the first place" part seems to be treating the phobia as though one could just will them through declaring them unimportant. I'm not loving the way that's stated, but it's also a single sentence leading into a joke, and reading too much into it also seems like inhospitable reading. As I said, I'm waiting to see what else we learn about Hanner's journey.

[BRC]

My take is that it all comes down to the degree to which you read Hannelore as an individual, vs as a stand-in.



If I knew somebody with Hannelore's OCD and anxieties, telling them "Go stand in yak poop until it stops bothering you" would be a horrible thing to say.

If this person came back from a trip, told me that they had stood in yak poop, and were now living a much happier life without their prior anxieties, I would celebrate that.

And if I knew another person in a similar situation, telling them to go stand in Yak Poop after hearing about Hannelore's experience would STILL be a horrible thing to say.


The idea of a "Cure" in any narrative that involves an ongoing condition is always a touchy subject. Once you introduce that, the narrative shifts.

Before, when Hannelore would obsessively clean, it was maybe mildly tragic that cleaning took up so much of her time, but it was respected as a needed coping mechanism. Not cleaning would just cause her distress. Other characters respected her habits as things she needed to do in order to be happy, or at least not miserable.

Now that respect runs the risk of being retroactively cast as enabling her. If she got over her anxieties by getting dirty enough, maybe her friends should have been throwing her into mud puddles.

[Vinyadan]

Exposure therapy exists, but, like all therapies, it isn't up to random guys to recommend it. And I don't think it would make sense to accuse randos (like Marten &Co.) of not having been clinically appropriate, since they don't run a clinic.

[Max_Killjoy]

Exposure therapy exists, but, like all therapies, it isn't up to random guys to recommend it. And I don't think it would make sense to accuse randos (like Marten &Co.) of not having been clinically appropriate, since they don't run a clinic.

I was going to say, no matter how much people think a "therapy" is going to help someone, they have no right to impose it on that person against their will, especially in a blunt force manner.

[Ibrinar]

I kinda doubt it would work anyway, randomly springing someones problems on them sounds like a rather bad experience. Repeated bad experiences with something and more controlled exposure are different things.

[Traab]

Isnt exposure therapy where you face minute amounts of what is bothering you until you adjust then slowly ramping up? Like being scared of heights you start off on say, a footstool, then work up from there to a step ladder, a real ladder, etc etc, till its time for your first base jump! This was more forcing herself to do something at the high end of her anxiety issues then one day realizing that she no longer had a reason to freak out about it. Which she has had plenty of experience with ever since she started working at the coffee shop of doom. I dont know if its the HEALTHY way to do things, but I get the feeling she was just so tired of letting her issues control her that she was forcing herself to go through with them anyways. Which is why, early on at least, she was often drugged to the gills on ativan or had serious issues with anxiety attacks or other such episodes. Over time she adjusted and that became her new limit which was sometimes pushed past by random events but in general she was getting a lot better already.

[John Cribati]

Working Coffee of Doom was the "stepstool" in your analogy. She just skipped a few levels to get to "shoveling manure"

[Willie the Duck]

Well, Jeph shows some self-awareness today.

[Cikomyr]

Well, Jeph shows some self-awareness today.

I thought it was funny

[georgie_leech]

I laughed if tomorrow he has a joke about everyone looking more similar (possibly by having Raven and Dora in the same room at the same time now), then he or someone close to him definitely reads these threads

[Cikomyr]

I laughed if tomorrow he has a joke about everyone looking more similar (possibly by having Raven and Dora in the same room at the same time now), then he or someone close to him definitely reads these threads

"Dora, have you changed something about your appearance? You look.. Different"
"Maybe i have a longer haircut?"
"... No"
"I took a tan?"
"No.. You just look different..."

[Kato]

I'm not sure who Dora expects is going to apply for a job in CoD... Well-adjusted mid-fiftiers? Maybe some curious late teens but...

Also, I guess Hanners can now take care of the spiders, I assume ?

[Wraith]

I'm not sure who Dora expects is going to apply for a job in CoD... Well-adjusted mid-fiftiers? Maybe some curious late teens but...

Dale is in his early 30's, if I recall correctly? And is more-or-less well adjusted, certainly when compared to Faye, Hannelore and Raven!

That being said, I'm just waiting for the strip in a year or so where Samantha (Marten's mom's boyfriend's daughter) turns 16 and applies for a part-time job there. I mean, she'll inevitably apply for a job at Union Robotics first, but I can't see that getting beyond gales of scornful laughter so Coffee O' Doom is probably the next port of call

[georgie_leech]

. I mean, she'll inevitably apply for a job at Union Robotics first, but I can't see that getting beyond gales of scornful laughter so Coffee O' Doom is probably the next port of call

Nah. Bubbles would be the model of professionalism and patiently explain that Sam needs more experience working on things that can't think and have feelings before she starts on actual robots. Faye in the background, on the other hand...

[Willie the Duck]

Dale is in his early 30's, if I recall correctly? And is more-or-less well adjusted, certainly when compared to Faye, Hannelore and Raven!

Was that a Raven=Dora joke, or does Raven have some subtle maladjustments I don't remember?

That being said, I'm just waiting for the strip in a year or so where Samantha (Marten's mom's boyfriend's daughter) turns 16 and applies for a part-time job there. I mean, she'll inevitably apply for a job at Union Robotics first, but I can't see that getting beyond gales of scornful laughter so Coffee O' Doom is probably the next port of call

That's assuming we ever see a year from now (in-comic time) and someone actually ages. However, she seems to already have a job doing marker art.

[Wraith]

Was that a Raven=Dora joke, or does Raven have some subtle maladjustments I don't remember?

I wasn't intending for it to be a Raven = Dora joke, but that's funnier than what I was going for

I was instead referring to the fact that she's just impenetrably weird; a prodigy at computer programming but spends her free time howling along to youtube videos and loses who minutes of time repeating peoples' names in strange voices instead of just saying "Hello".

Yes, I know! That's the joke! =P

[Yuki Akuma]

I wasn't intending for it to be a Raven = Dora joke, but that's funnier than what I was going for

I was instead referring to the fact that she's just impenetrably weird; a prodigy at computer programming but spends her free time howling along to youtube videos and loses who minutes of time repeating peoples' names in strange voices instead of just saying "Hello".

Yes, I know! That's the joke! =P

..Honestly, I get what you're doing there, but Raven does also seem to be some kinda prodigy - didn't she make one of Faye's coffee machines time jump ahead like ten minutes that one time?