custom monster summoned?

**kemmotar** · 2007-10-05, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Is it possible to summon a custom made monster instead of one that exists in the MM(any three of them).

The simplest custom monster example could be a templated one. For example a multiheaded lernean creature already that already exists in MM, for example a dragon...Is it possible?For example use summon IX to summon a(say) large dragon with the multiheaded lernean template to advance its HD to equal summon monster IX?

**Fax Celestis** · 2007-10-05, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)

IIRC, there's a correlation between spell level and CR for summon monster spells, even if it's not explicitly stated.

**bosssmiley** · 2007-10-05, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by kemmotar

Is it possible, for example, to use summon IX to summon a(say) large dragon with the multiheaded lernean template to advance its HD to equal summon monster IX?

With DM approval of your maths there's no valid reason not.

That said were I your DM I'd want to look over the monster for abuse potential before giving the OK. In the "multiheaded lernean dragon" example above I already see:

1) potential for multiple breath weapon cheese even beyond that offered by standard pyro-/cryohydras.
2) exploitation of the RAW under-CRing of dragons (add 2-4 to get a dragon's real CR).
3) possible partial action abuse (I'd want to check the rules on what each head is allowed to do per round)
4) Is that template (multiheaded lernean) in Savage Species? Ain't that one of the most three most b0rkened D&D books?

First rule to remember as a player introducing new rules (official, 3rd party or homebrew). Ask yourself: "Would I be happy to have the GM drop this on me without warning?" If the answer is no, go back to the drawing board.

**kemmotar** · 2007-10-05, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)

For one thing, this is obviously exploitation cheese I would never want my DM to think up and present before me...However, for theory's sake and in cases it is needed to save my skin from an onslaught of a whole battlefield of orcs(supposedly) i would use any shapechange and summon cheese i can get my hands on...Plus if i can get it for summon monster i can sure as hell get it for polymorph or shapechange can't I?

On the matter of multiheaded creatures, it says that if the creature has a breath weapon, all the heads have it plus and i quote:
"all (breath) weapons activate in the same round but can aim in different directions"

I think that should do it...29 cones of fire should be fun...and a pretty hefty DC considering you get +2 con for each extra head...hmmm...Has anyone worked out before what the CR or HD of monsters summoned by summon spells are?Wizards official forum maybe can help...I'm surely not the first person to have thought of this abuse...i'm new in the proffession of cheesemaking...don't tell me i started my own cheese

What worries me in this combination is the fact that the summon monster spell says that you can summon a monster from the level X table. This severely narrows down the monsters you can summon to MM I...maybe MM II...certainly not 3(since its newer) and none of the other books that have come out since the 3.5 PhB...Therefore there must be a way around it, erranda?Official answer in wizards forum?

**Fax Celestis** · 2007-10-05, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by kemmotar

Has anyone worked out before what the CR or HD of monsters summoned by summon spells are?

A sampling:

Summon Monster I
Celestial dog: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Celestial owl: 1 HD, CR 1/4
Celestial giant fire beetle: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Celestial porpoise: 2 HD, CR 1/2 (aquatic only)
Celestial badger: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Celestial monkey: 1 HD, CR 1/6
Fiendish dire rat: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Fiendish raven: 1 HD, CR 1/6
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish hawk: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish octopus: 2 HD, CR 1 (aquatic only)
Fiendish snake, Small viper: 1 HD, CR 1/2

Summon Monster II
Celestial giant bee: 3 HD, CR 1
Celestial giant bombardier beetle: 2 HD, CR 2
Celestial riding dog: 2 HD, CR 1
Celestial eagle: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Lemure: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish squid: 3 HD, CR 1 (aquatic only)
Fiendish wolf: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large: 3 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish shark, Medium: 3 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish snake, Medium viper: 2 HD, CR 1

Summon Monster V
Hound Archon: 6 HD, CR 4
Medium Elemental: 4 HD, CR 3
Acherai: 6 HD, CR 5
Bearded Devil: 6 HD, CR 5
Shadow Mastiff: 4 HD, CR 5

Summon Monster IX
Couatl: 9 HD, CR 10
Leonal: 12 HD, CR 12
Barbed Devil: 12 HD, CR 11
Bebilith: 12 HD, CR 10
Hezrou: 10 HD, CR 11

From this I would say that approximate spell level should be approximate CR.

**kemmotar** · 2007-10-05, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Well..then i get the feeling i've been looking at the wrong spell...assuming min level for gate, 18, you can control a 36HD monster...which is more than enough...

Now...how do you work out the relationship between LA and CR?I'm pretty sure it aint 1 for 1

(BTW...sorry to bother everyone with my ignorance of some of the rules

just bear with me..hehe)

**Nebo_** · 2007-10-05, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis

A sampling:

Summon Monster I
Celestial dog: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Celestial owl: 1 HD, CR 1/4
Celestial giant fire beetle: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Celestial porpoise: 2 HD, CR 1/2 (aquatic only)
Celestial badger: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Celestial monkey: 1 HD, CR 1/6
Fiendish dire rat: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Fiendish raven: 1 HD, CR 1/6
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish hawk: 1 HD, CR 1/3
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Fiendish octopus: 2 HD, CR 1 (aquatic only)
Fiendish snake, Small viper: 1 HD, CR 1/2

Summon Monster II
Celestial giant bee: 3 HD, CR 1
Celestial giant bombardier beetle: 2 HD, CR 2
Celestial riding dog: 2 HD, CR 1
Celestial eagle: 1 HD, CR 1/2
Lemure: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish squid: 3 HD, CR 1 (aquatic only)
Fiendish wolf: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large: 3 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish shark, Medium: 3 HD, CR 1
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium: 2 HD, CR 1
Fiendish snake, Medium viper: 2 HD, CR 1

Summon Monster V
Hound Archon: 6 HD, CR 4
Medium Elemental: 4 HD, CR 3
Acherai: 6 HD, CR 5
Bearded Devil: 6 HD, CR 5
Shadow Mastiff: 4 HD, CR 5
That Damned Crab: 7 HD, CR 3

Summon Monster IX
Couatl: 9 HD, CR 10
Leonal: 12 HD, CR 12
Barbed Devil: 12 HD, CR 11
Bebilith: 12 HD, CR 10
Hezrou: 10 HD, CR 11

From this I would say that approximate spell level should be approximate CR.

Emphasis mine.

Don't add monsters by CR. First, see what each one is capable of; then add it if it matches up to what the other monsters of that level can do.

**kemmotar** · 2007-10-05, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Nebo_

Emphasis mine.

Don't add monsters by CR. First, see what each one is capable of; then add it if it matches up to what the other monsters of that level can do.

I highly doubt anyone will and/or can do that...it would take too long and it is kinda subjective...is there any objective way to get LA 1=CR X?

**kamikasei** · 2007-10-06, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)

Why would there be a fixed relationship between LA and CR? One measures how useful a creature's abilities would be in the hands of a player (over a long campaign), the other how hard those abilities make it to defeat the creature (in a single, isolated encounter). They're not measuring the same thing at all. Each has to be decided independently for a given combination of abilities.

**Nebo_** · 2007-10-06, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by kemmotar

I highly doubt anyone will and/or can do that...it would take too long and it is kinda subjective...is there any objective way to get LA 1=CR X?

That was an extreme example to prove my point, but apparently you couldn't see that. The point is that CR doesn't give a very good representation of a creature's abilities. Just look at the pixie; CR 5, yet it has to be summoned with SNA 9.

**kemmotar** · 2007-10-06, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)

No i do get the point, however, this doesn't really help does it?And HD doesn't help either since LA doesn't geive HD and you could get an ECL 40 with 1 HD monster...

**kamikasei** · 2007-10-06, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by kemmotar

No i do get the point, however, this doesn't really help does it?And HD doesn't help either since LA doesn't geive HD and you could get an ECL 40 with 1 HD monster...

Why are you trying to convert between LA and CR? Don't templates give both?

What is it you're trying to accomplish?

**Anxe** · 2007-10-06, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)

There's a variant rule where you summon a specific monster with your summon monster spell. This specific monster has rolled stats (3d6) and rolled HP. But if it dies you can't summon it again for a day. You could probably apply some templates to that monster. But if it's nonspecific then you can't just say, "I want the Celestial Dire Dog with 7 heads." It's gotta have a name too.

EDIT: And for adding templates usually you just add the LA to the CR if it doesn't already state it in. It really should be saying both though.

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