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2019-05-31, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
[This discussion is about a dinosaur from a DMs' Guild product, https://www.dmsguild.com/product/220...the-Jungle-Rot, which is apparently AL-legal but has at least one questionable monster in it, a gigantic Sauropod called the Titanosaurus which is CR 7 despite being far tougher than a T-Rex IMO.
Stats:
Titanosaurus (Gargantuan beast, 130' long and 110 tons)
AC 17 HP 201 Speed 30'
Str 30 Dex 7 Con 20 Int 2 Wis 10 Cha 7, +8 to Con saves
CR 7
Stomp (20') for +13, 6d10+7 (40) bludgeoning, DC 17 Strength save to avoid prone, OR
Tail (20') for +13, 7d10+7 (45) bludgeoning
Legendary actions (3 each round):
Momentum (1 action): move 15' without provoking opportunity attacks
Tough Defense (2 actions): resistance to one of piercing, bludgeoning, slashing until start of its next turn
Tail Thunder (3 actions): AoE (+13 at disadvantage for 7d10+7 (45)) in a 20' cone
Discussion continued from this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ide-(5e)/page4 ]
I was just following your lead, since you said:
If you take "ideal situation" off the table and just pretend both dinosaurs are going to stupidly charge into combat and fight until you're dead, then you're just left with the fact that the Titanosaurus has way better stats than the T-Rex but a lower CR... which means the Titanosaurus's CR is, again, clearly inappropriate.
Titanosaurus eating a whole round of attacks with resistance isn't so bad really. (60' separation = 2 Legendary actions to gain resistance to piercing damage, 1 legendary action to move 15', followed by 30' movement on its turn and then it's in melee range where it can threaten opportunity attacks while Dodging and follow up with a Tail Thunder shortly thereafter) If the Giganotosaurus wins initiative it will probably inflict more damage than the Titanosaurus does during that first round-and-a-bit, call it twice as much damage if we give it the benefit of the doubt, but it also takes more than twice as much damage due to having lower AC and no resistance to piercing damage. So even in your scenario that you chose to favor the Giganotosaurus, the Titanosaurus is still fine. In the ideal scenario for the Titanosaurus, e.g. Shepherd Druid in close quarters, the reverse is not true--Giganotosaurus dies a horrible death while Titanosaurus wins handily.
But they're roughly comparable nonetheless because I can choose scenarios where the Giganotosaurus does much better, relative to T-Saur, than in your scenario. I think you just picked a poor example. 180' initial separation against PCs on horseback on a plain would have been a better choice.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-05-31 at 11:58 PM. Reason: Added Titanosaurus stats
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2019-06-01, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Honestly, just in a white-room comparison, it's a good form. It's another option for druids to summon. And as always, options are good, even from a lvl7+ spell slot.
And, as always, druids do things a little differently.
By and large, druids DON'T have instant damage AoE effects. Is a tail slap, 7d10 damage, at +13 to-hit with disadvantage, not an instant AoE damage effect? 20' cone, 7d10, +13 to-hit vs AC, disadvantage on that attack, a repeatable "spell effect". Which pseudo works out to about a DC16-17 "spell" effect, give or take. Maybe more vs low AC foes.
And one you can utilize, in a somewhat third person way, not being in danger yourself for doing so.
So, thusly, just another sort of arrow in a druid's quiver. I tend to like restrain-on-hit, but the fact that druids "CAN'ish" (with their normal "'ish" thing on that statement) do a "thing", makes it a good thing to be able to do.
Better than T-rexs? Don't know. It's just another thing that a fairly versatile spell can do. Right time, right place, great. Better or worse doesn't really come into it. It's just another thing you can do.Last edited by sambojin; 2019-06-01 at 02:10 AM.
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2019-06-01, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Presumably it's called Titanosaurus because the actual sauropods in that size class (Argentinosaurus, Patagotitan, etc) use Earth geographical names that are inappropriate for fantasy?
(the real Titanosaurus was pretty small by sauropod standards).Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-06-01 at 04:01 AM.
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2019-06-01, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
If I brought this to the my DM and said "I would like to Polymorph into this instead of the usual giant ape", I would get a flat and resounding 'no'.
(1) Damage of 45 to Giant Ape's 44 over two attacks... except at +4 higher to hit.
(2) 33% more HP at +5 AC over Giant Ape.
(3) On top of this, Legendary Actions including a movement option for absurd speeds or an off-turn AoE.
Is CR 7 appropriate?
...No, it really isn't.
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2019-06-01, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
By the numbers provided that's a cr 13 creature somebody did some bad math in that adventure.
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2019-06-01, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-06-01, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
On its own, it's probably OK, because how does an encounter with something like this start? It won't just spend a single round closing with the party-- You should be able to see this thing from miles away (at least, if it's on the surface, and what dungeon would it even fit in?). Its momentum legendary action will prevent it from being completely kiteable, but if the party members split up, and whichever one it's going after dashes while the others keep peppering it, you should still be able to get in a heck of a lot of damage before it can do a thing.
On the other hand, CR is also used to gate PC access to monsters via Polymorph and summoning and so on, and this thing is way too good to be able to just plop down right in the middle of a battle.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2019-06-01, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Ha! That’s why MaxWilson and I are arguing!
My take is that the legendary AoE isn’t going to fire off enough in a real fight, so incorporating it in the offensive CR overstates things.
He is slowly trying to persuade me that it isn’t a 7 and should be somewhere between 7 and 10. We are giving each other scenarios to try out demonstrating our points.
In my actual ToA campaign, as mentioned, the Titanosaurus was an underwhelming foe. The party easily drove off an angry live one (because as Max pointed out, herbivores rarely fight to the death against PCs), and tore apart a zombie one like it was nothing (it was being accompanied by 2 Bone Nagas, so it wasn’t swamped by action economy either).
Try the following scenario:
Party is a Moon Druid, Battle Master Fighter (Dex, Rapier & Shield with bow backup), Valor Bard and Rogue Assassin. For these purposes assume all 7th level.
Titanosaurus is encountered about 60’ away, in an area of mixed wide clearings with tall trees on either side of the clearings.
As long as the Druid beats the T-Saur in initiative, they can cast Spike Growth on the area between it and the party, forcing it to traverse an extra 40’ of difficult terrain.
The Bard nails the T-Saur with a Dissonant Whispers, forcing it back through the difficult terrain.
The Fighter and Rogue just dump arrows into it.
At that point, it just ran away, but even if it tried to fight its way through to the party I don’t see how it would get more than a single attack in before it expired.
This is just basic use of Spike Growth to kill monsters lacking ranged attacks. Druids were very common in ToA (every table I saw at my AL location had one), so this will happen most of the time if you are running the Titanosaurus in the module I assume it was playtested with. My players weren’t super tactical, but previously Grungs had used these tactics on them so they had gotten the hang of it by that point.
MaxWilson:
1. Does the Titanosaurus stand any chance of doing more than minimal damage in this scenario?
2. Is this scenario (druid in party who prepped Spike Growth, Bard with Dissonant Whispers) unreasonable? Druids should be super-common in Chult, and would normally have Spike Growth prepared, but I acknowledge that not every party has a Bard. Still, this didn’t strike me as master-class tactics at the time, just regular smart players exploiting a limited monster.Last edited by Zuras; 2019-06-01 at 08:54 AM.
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2019-06-01, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
I don't do the CR math but that looks well more powerful than the T-Rex as a polymorph form which is CR8... that said there's use for more beasts at higher CRs so I'm not against it, but the CR math is clearly wrong.
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2019-06-01, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Even without the legendary action it's cr10 minimum, it's defensive cr is 9 and it's offensive is 10/16/21 depending on how many targets you include in it's AOE.
Your example is a near perfect ranged attack force going up against a melee sponge. This is basically the same as a lvl 3 arcane archer killing a Tarrasque without getting hit. But I'll run it.
Spoiler: The Scenario ranRound 1
Battlemaster: 4 attacks at 4d10+20= 169/201 (I realized that i did the wrong attack roll for the long bow but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Rogue: 1 attack at 4d6+1d8+5= 145/201
Druid spike growth
The Titan dashes forward uses 20' of movement and takes 10 damage from 10' of spike growth it then jumps the remaining 30' because it is still technically in the spike growth it takes an additional 5 damage. (It jumps because ow that **** hurts.)130/201 (If he doesn't jump then well he's effed that's the reason spike growth is so good.)
Bard: dissonant whispers succeeds dealing 14 damage, the Titan uses it's reaction to not move at all into the obviously harmful ground. 116/201 (see spell description)
Legendary action time 3 are in range with a +13 to hit it has to roll a 4 or higher with disadvantage this is a 70% hit chance, he hits the Bard, and Druid missing the battlemaster, dealing 45 damage to each of them which is about 3/4 of their health.
Battlemaster: 2 attacks at 2d10+10= 95/201 moves away from creature
Rogue attacks and moves away 71/201
Druid uses exploding earth 50/201
Titanosaur: uses tail attack against the Bard who probably has an ac of 17 which means 85% hit chance dealing 45 damage, Bard is ko'd Titan then moves 15' taking 15 damage from spike growth and putting him in range of either the druid or the fighter as the rogue moved far enough to not be in range. 35/201
Bards turn death saves
Legendary action against the druid hits and Kos him
Battlemaster: he's smart so he attacks:2d10+101=14/201
Rogue kills Titan.
TL;DR: your team had near perfect tactics and 2 of their member's still ended up unconscious.
Spoiler: Same Scenario T-rex insteadBattlemaster: 4 attacks at 4d10+20= 94/136 (I realized that i did the wrong attack roll for the long bow but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Rogue: 1 attack at 4d6+1d8+5= 70/136
Druid spike growth
T-Rex: Moves 10' into the growth and takes 10 damage then jumps 25' taking another 5 damage he's now 25' away and has 5' of movement left so he dashes to get in range taking another 5 damage 50/136
Bard: Dissonant whispers succeeds and the t rex now out of the damaging area runs 50' away but not into the obviously harmful terrain.
Battlemaster: 2d10+10=29/136
rogue: 4d6+1d8+5=5/136
Druid: exploding earth=dead t-rex
Bard: plays a merry jig
Last edited by th3g0dc0mp13x; 2019-06-01 at 10:52 AM.
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2019-06-01, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Well now, that’s quite a few rulings not in favor of the PCs there.
If you rule that Spike Growth is obviously dangerous terrain and it won’t move, that’s obviously an issue. I ruled that it was already inside the spikes, so it would move as normal but attempt to exit the spikes ASAP. The text for Spike Growth even specifies “into or within” as two different categories of movement relative to the Spike Growth.
Elephants can’t jump in real life, so I wouldn’t let a sauropod jump here, but RAW that works, so you can manage to dash 45’ on your turn while taking 15 damage. However, you are landing in difficult terrain, so RAW the Titan must make a DC 10 Dex Acrobatics check with its -2 Dex or land prone.
Even allowing your world long jump champion, how on earth can you get 3 party members within a 20’ cone? Dashing will get you within 20’ of the two front line PCs, not all 3. And why wouldn’t they move farther away on their turns? It has a -2 to initiative and the Bard has at least a +3, the Druid likely a +2, the others likely +3 or +4. Statistically one of them should just get a bad roll, but that is still 3 party members going first and opening up the distance, and all they need to do is avoid fireball formation to keep it from hitting them all at once.
If I ruled previously that Dissonant Whispers didn’t work with Spke Growth, why wouldn’t the Bard ready an action to cast it with a trigger of “whenever it is in range to attack” or otherwise adapt their tactics? If a tactic doesn’t work under your rulings, don’t assume that the notional PCs waste their turn doing it, consider what they might do as an alternative.
The scenario I gave you was actually pretty tame. The actual Battle Master in my campaign had menacing attack as a maneuver, which added another wisdom save that must be passed before ever approaching the party, and there was also a Wizard with Ray of Frost, so the Titanosaurus only had speed 20, but my actual experience seems excessively one sided, thus the simpler scenario.
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2019-06-01, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
So, the Titanosaurus really does need to be a higher CR then 7. The T-Rex is a CR 8, and this thing could kill one with ease without using any legendary actions. It hits harder, has more HP, and is more accurate. However, without its legendary actions it is far weaker then the Giganotosaurus. It does less damage, has lower speed, and has lower HP. The only thing it has is a higher AC and a higher attack bonus. However, once you factor Legendary actions into the mix it is superior thanks to Tough Defense. I'd put this as CR 10, 9 at the very lowest.
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2019-06-01, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Let's be fair here: the Giganotosaurus without its legendary actions is also far weaker than the Titanosaurus (or the Giganotosaurus). In both cases, legendary actions bring a lot to the table.
But what's interesting about the Titanosaurus's low CR is that it makes them summonable via Conjure Fey. Great choice for a Shepherd Druid to Planar Bind, theoretically, if your DM is crazy enough to allow them at CR 7. Giganotosaurus isn't available via Conjure Fey.
It's not an unreasonable scenario or result, but a CR 8 T-Rex, CR 16 Iron Golem, or CR 17 Goristro does even worse, so it isn't proving that CR 7 is appropriate. Remember that CR does not measure difficulty. It basically just measures HP x DPR in a cage match. A CR 2 Intellect Devourer or CR 4 Banshee is not less dangerous than a CR 8 T Rex. It's just worth less XP.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-01 at 08:05 PM.
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2019-06-01, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Let's actually calculate this by the book.
Defensive CR:
201 HP is right in the range for CR 9. No other modifiers apply (AC is normal for CR 9, no special features), so defensive CR = 9.
Offensive CR:
DPR: We assume that everything hits and deals average damage. AoEs hit 2 people and both fail their saves. We take the best three rounds, which for this is easy. Attack routine is Tail (45) + Tail Thunder (2x45 = 90), so 135 DPR. Thats...base offensive CR 20. Add 1 for an absurd to-hit modifier (should be 10 at CR 20), and you get offensive CR 21.
CR is the average of the two, so (9+21)/2 = 15 This thing's final CR is 15, but that's because it's a horribly stupid monster. It's a melee brute with no redeeming quantities other than it hits like two or three trucks. You're looking at a round kill against a level 7 tank class, which it will hit on a 5 unless they have something special. And with a 20' reach...
No. This is a horribly built monster. Don't use it, and certainly don't let someone transform into it. Not a chance, not under any circumstances, not for any reason.
As a note, Tough Defense doesn't change CR because a single resistance for a round doesn't qualify. If we assume it did, the eHP would increase by 100, for a defensive CR of 16, but the offensive CR would drop to 10 (losing 90 damage, but the stupidly high ATK brings it up 3 steps then), for an average of CR 13.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2019-06-01 at 09:02 PM.
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2019-06-01, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
A player polymorphed into a creature doesn’t get any legendary actions, so the Titanosaurus would only be an incremental improvement over the CR 6 Brachiosaurus. It’s the AoE from the legendary action that blows up the CR math.
If you think it’s broken, change Tail Thunder to a single attack at disadvantage, or a DC 18 Str Save to avoid 2d10 damage and being knocked prone. It’s only punching above its weight if it can land the AoE.
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2019-06-01, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Since the Brachiosaurus comes from the same author as the Titanosaurus, color me unsurprised if they miscalculated its CR as well.
Brachiosaurus: AC 16, HP 145, 30' move, Stomp (20') +10 for 5d10+7 (34) bludgeoning & DC 15 Strength save to avoid prone, OR Tail (20') +10 for 6d10+7 (40).
I don't feel like pulling out my DMG right now but https://1-dot-encounter-planner.apps...ter-stats.html (which is based on DMG tables) says 145 HP AC 16 Damage 40 To-hit +10 comes out to CR 7, and I don't know of any cases where Leugren's results don't match DMG tables. I have more confidence in Leugren's competence than I do in whoever wrote that Beasts of the Jungle Rot supplement.
No, it's CR 10-equivalent without using any legendary actions at all. Are you calculating the CR before you make these statements?Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-01 at 10:58 PM.
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2019-06-01, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
A player Polymorphed into a creature does get Legendary actions. Shapechange explicitly disallows Legendary Actions and Lair Actions, indicating that one would normally get those. True Polymorph does allow Legendary and Lair actions by not including this clause.
And Polymorph, much like its True version, doesn't restrict Legendary action use.
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2019-06-01, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
You must be using an older version of the MM. The more recent MMs have additional rules on page 11 concerning legendary actions, including this, "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects."
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2019-06-01, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
The DMG literally says “Creating a monster isn’t just a number-crunching exercise.[...] After seeing your monster in action, you might want to adjust the challenge rating up or down based on your experience.” It’s right there with the CR calculation tables.
How much you want to increase or decrease the initial CR based on its terrible spell defenses can be debated, but it is clearly spelled out as something you are explicitly expected to do as a DM.
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2019-06-02, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Yes, but going from CR 15 to CR 7, especially when no CR component is below 7 and the creature has no special quirks is a bit much IMO.
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2019-06-02, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Yes, and I think whoever did this adjustment was off their rocker. It's way out of line with prior art (MM monsters, Volo's, Mordenkainen's). You don't halve the CR of a melee brute just because it's a melee brute, otherwise T-Rexes would be CR 5ish. Did you notice how badly a T-Rex does in your Spike Growth scenario?
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-02 at 10:39 AM.
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2019-06-02, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
There's one small flaw with that. Jungle of Rot is considered AL Legal, so if a player wants to use the beasts from it they are allowed to. Thankfully it doesn't seem like many players realize this, but if they did then DMs would be forced to allow players to use Polymorph with the given beasts, no changes to CR.
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2019-06-02, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-06-02 at 12:16 PM.
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2019-06-02, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
I have players use BotJR in my AL games frequently.
I have never had any issues, since you can’t access the legendary actions with Polymorph and summoned ones with Conjure Fey can turn on you if you lose concentration, and are too inconveniently sized to come with you and the one minute casting time means you can’t just summon one up at the beginning of a fight in the BBEG’s throne room.
I used a bunch of the zombie dinosaurs in different fights, they all seemed to perform around their listed CR or less. My players were decent tacticians, but certainly didn’t use ideal tactics every fight or anything.
The only creature that seemed significantly better than the pre-BotJR options was the Zealraptor, mainly because it gives a CR 2 beast that fits the DMG guidelines rather than being somewhat underpowered. It calculates to between a CR 2 and 3 and it looks like they rounded down. It gave the Druid something useful to wild shape into besides an Bear or giant boa constrictor.
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2019-06-02, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
What situations are you thinking of where these would even be relevant? Their size is such that they don't fit into normal dungeons and buildings, and will generally reveal a party attempting any kind of stealth. They are too large for a lot of travel methods, for example transport via plants (the main travel spell for the caster that is most likely to conjure them) won't work with them , and generally gates and such in the world are not built to that huge of a scale. For polymorph purposes, they're a big sack of hit point which, even if they're really not CR7 appropriate, will still be pretty easy to bypass or kill in the majority of situations where polymorphing an ally is useful and you have the space. For summoning, they're even worse because you need to have a battle outdoors or in a huge area where you know when the battle will take place to within an hour and you have a minute uninterrupted near the battle area to cast the 7th or higher level summon spell. Aside from travel difficulties you can't planar bind them to get around the 1 hour duration, as they're beasts and not one of the creature types that planar binding actually affects.
The wailing and gnashing of teeth over a creature that's going to be completely irrelevant in the vast majority of play seems a bit misguided. Especially if you're talking about AL play, where the vast majority of modules include gates, rooms, or passages that simply will not admit something this size.
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2019-06-02, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
Huh. I never noticed before that Conjure Fey doesn't have the same explicit language as Conjure Animals, "each beast is also considered fey." I'd still rule that they are, but I guess it's up to the DM.
I don't foresee the same problems you do with Polymorph or conjuring. RAW lets them fit in any 15' x 15' space via Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces, and even if your DM is sane enough to flatly deny it in this case, that still leaves three common scenarios where this is useful: outdoor adventures, shallow dungeons, and destructible dungeons. There's obvious applicability in ToA's Nangalore or Curse of Strahd's Argenvosholt for example, even if you have to knock down a few walls in the process.
Rearguards and secure fallback positions are invaluable too, even if you can't bring your rearguard into the dungeon with you. Consider what happens to an Assassin who can't effectively be pursued beyond a certain distance. He can wait until they let down their guard, then pick off anyone who's isolated from the other monsters, and then go back to waiting. It puts the monsters under siege.
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2019-06-03, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
You can always make a house rule of whatever you want, but RAW planar binding doesn't work on beasts conjured with Conjure Fey, and making the argument 'this creature is overpowered when used with these house rules of mine' is always a bit silly.
I don't foresee the same problems you do with Polymorph or conjuring. RAW lets them fit in any 15' x 15' space via Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces, and even if your DM is sane enough to flatly deny it in this case, that still leaves three common scenarios where this is useful: outdoor adventures, shallow dungeons, and destructible dungeons. There's obvious applicability in ToA's Nangalore or Curse of Strahd's Argenvosholt for example, even if you have to knock down a few walls in the process.
Rearguards and secure fallback positions are invaluable too, even if you can't bring your rearguard into the dungeon with you. Consider what happens to an Assassin who can't effectively be pursued beyond a certain distance. He can wait until they let down their guard, then pick off anyone who's isolated from the other monsters, and then go back to waiting. It puts the monsters under siege.
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Re: Is Titanosaurus CR 7 really appropriate? (Stats included)
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