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  1. - Top - End - #1291
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Does anyone know of any images of reconstructions or just illustrations of complete Bronze Age swords of the "rapier" type? There's plenty of images of corroded blades without hilts, but I can't find a single one that shows how the actual thing would have looked in practice.
    There's a few of them with handle here? Not quite reconstructions (but they're very much not quite rapiers either, so that makes them and me even).
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I see. So they really seem to be using the word rapier for pretty much anything that has a blade. There are some really thin and long blades, but can't really imagine how they would be handled with a standard dagger or short sword grip.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I see. So they really seem to be using the word rapier for pretty much anything that has a blade. There are some really thin and long blades, but can't really imagine how they would be handled with a standard dagger or short sword grip.
    Well, at least intuitively, a true rapier, in the sense of a one-handed sword with a long light blade and a balanced, often elaborate hilt, isn't going to translate well to a bronze weapon. Rapier blades have a lot of flex (at least compared to say, a longsword), which bronze and iron do not handle well at all. Just theorizing, but I would imagine that any long bronze blade would operate more like an estoc or something.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I was wondering: Is there a fairly comprehensive list somewhere, arranging historical types of armour by actual weight and protective value? I'm thinking of homebrewing a Transylvania-during-Vlad-Tepes esque setting and wanted to maybe overhaul the 5e armour list.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I was wondering: Is there a fairly comprehensive list somewhere, arranging historical types of armour by actual weight and protective value? I'm thinking of homebrewing a Transylvania-during-Vlad-Tepes esque setting and wanted to maybe overhaul the 5e armour list.
    If you take any "type" of armor, you'll end up with a wide range of potential weights and protective values due to simple manufacturing differences alone. It's certainly not a simple matter of "plate is heavier than a gambeson" since any set of plate armor, and especially a gambeson, will vary a lot from others. Thickness of material in different areas, quality of material (especially relevant with metal plates), coverage, etc, will all change things quite a bit.

    In addition, there really isn't a good way of defining real-world protective value in simple terms. Sure, a well-made metal breastplate will stop a whole lot of hurty things, but it provides exactly zero help if someone wacks you on the head with a hammer or slams your toe with their shield rim. Simple AC values in DnD aren't unrealistic because they got the numbers wrong, but because numbers are inadequate to describe them.

    In modern armor, there is some exception to this in the form of NIJ ratings and such, but those are assisted greatly by the fact that most body armor has similar coverage, somewhat similar construction (typically combo of soft strong fibers and hard strike plate), and are designed to mostly combat a particular threat (bits of metal at high velocity), and can be tested with standardized ammo types.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-06-04 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    If you take any "type" of armor, you'll end up with a wide range of potential weights and protective values due to simple manufacturing differences alone. It's certainly not a simple matter of "plate is heavier than a gambeson" since any set of plate armor, and especially a gambeson, will vary a lot from others. Thickness of material in different areas, quality of material (especially relevant with metal plates), coverage, etc, will all change things quite a bit.

    In addition, there really isn't a good way of defining real-world protective value in simple terms. Sure, a well-made metal breastplate will stop a whole lot of hurty things, but it provides exactly zero help if someone wacks you on the head with a hammer or slams your toe with their shield rim. Simple AC values in DnD aren't unrealistic because they got the numbers wrong, but because numbers are inadequate to describe them.

    In modern armor, there is some exception to this in the form of NIJ ratings and such, but those are assisted greatly by the fact that most body armor has similar coverage, somewhat similar construction (typically combo of soft strong fibers and hard strike plate), and are designed to mostly combat a particular threat (bits of metal at high velocity), and can be tested with standardized ammo types.

    As just one example, much of the debate over whether plate armor was immediately made obsolete by firearms comes from the fact that the same projectile, fired from the same gun with the same powder at the same distance, will punch a hole clean through a cheap mass-produced breastplate, and barely dent a high-end tempered steel breastplate.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    As just one example, much of the debate over whether plate armor was immediately made obsolete by firearms comes from the fact that the same projectile, fired from the same gun with the same powder at the same distance, will punch a hole clean through a cheap mass-produced breastplate, and barely dent a high-end tempered steel breastplate.
    Heck, the same projectile, with the same charge, fired from the same gun, at the same range,at the exact same piece of armor, might or might not penetrate, based on the angle and location of the hit. Though that at least is somewhat handled by the inherent randomness of die rolls.

    If one were to design an armor system that even approaches reality, the armor your character wears would probably need at least 4 factors:
    -Which parts are covered by armor. Face, armpits, ankles, tiny slivers of the elbow, etc.
    -What thickness of armor is on each part.
    -What material/construction is the armor on each part. Armor is often layered and composite in nature, so some areas may have multiple types covering them.
    -What level of craftsmanship/material quality is the armor made with in each part. This should also include things like battle damage and maintenance. Armor compromised by rust or rot is going to have compromised effectiveness
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-06-04 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    If one were to design an armor system that even approaches reality, the armor your character wears would probably need at least 4 factors:
    -Which parts are covered by armor. Face, armpits, ankles, tiny slivers of the elbow, etc.
    -What thickness of armor is on each part.
    -What material/construction is the armor on each part. Armor is often layered and composite in nature, so some areas may have multiple types covering them.
    -What level of craftsmanship/material quality is the armor made with in each part. This should also include things like battle damage and maintenance. Armor compromised by rust or rot is going to have compromised effectiveness
    If you're willing to half ass it a little bit something like that might actually work.

    When you attack, roll 2 d20's. The first one determines hit location, in a broad sense. If the character has 50% of their body surface covered with heavy plate with padding underneath, 40% covered with light plating (like a gauntlet, or maybe the limb armor is not as thick as the cuirass), mail or very thick layered fabric and 10% is barely covered at all then 10 or lower hits the heavy parts and 11-19 the medium armor. That roll retroactively sets the armor class the second die needs to hit, maybe with a zone in between full success and failure for partial damage or something (your helmet holds, but that blow hurt). Raising your accuracy gives a bonus on the first die, raising your chance to hit the weak spots, and something like the power of your attack gives a bonus to the second roll, the odds to hurt.

    Of course it probably adds more complexity than it's worth. It doesn't really do anything a single armor class number does not do. But it's technically a better simulation.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    If you're willing to half ass it a little bit something like that might actually work.

    When you attack, roll 2 d20's. The first one determines hit location, in a broad sense. If the character has 50% of their body surface covered with heavy plate with padding underneath, 40% covered with light plating (like a gauntlet, or maybe the limb armor is not as thick as the cuirass), mail or very thick layered fabric and 10% is barely covered at all then 10 or lower hits the heavy parts and 11-19 the medium armor. That roll retroactively sets the armor class the second die needs to hit, maybe with a zone in between full success and failure for partial damage or something (your helmet holds, but that blow hurt). Raising your accuracy gives a bonus on the first die, raising your chance to hit the weak spots, and something like the power of your attack gives a bonus to the second roll, the odds to hurt.

    Of course it probably adds more complexity than it's worth. It doesn't really do anything a single armor class number does not do. But it's technically a better simulation.
    You could probably have a stepped, slightly random damage reduction value depending on the attacker's roll. For example:

    (1) Touch AC > attack roll -- No damage.
    (2) AC > attack roll > touch AC -- Damage roll against DR 2d6 + 2*CON + enhancement bonus.
    (3) Attack roll > AC -- Damage roll against DR 1d6 + CON + enhancement bonus.

    Using D&D 3.5 stats, you'd need to adjust typical TAC values, because hitting TAC is easier than the already-easy-to-hit AC (lack of defensive equivalent to base attack bonus is a big cause of this). You could also separate out "AC needed for touching" (as used by magical attacks, splash weapons, and PF firearms, requiring only minute contact to have their full impact) from "AC needed to connect a weapon to a target" (more akin to grapples and trips, which need more than fleeting contact, but don't need to penetrate armour or skin).


    (Edit: Obviously, it's much easier if you just roll against "no DR" in case (3), but I like armour to have some DR. An alternative is the Damage Conversion UA variant, converting the negated damage into nonlethal damage. Using that, you could perhaps roll against the same DR for both (2) and (3), but converting all damage that isn't negated to nonlethal damage for (2), and converting the negated damage to nonlethal for (3) (without touching the non-negated damage). That gives nonlethal damage a much greater presence in the game, and incidentally also doubles in-combat magical healing, which helps underpowered cure spells.)
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-06-04 at 06:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    Heck, the same projectile, with the same charge, fired from the same gun, at the same range,at the exact same piece of armor, might or might not penetrate, based on the angle and location of the hit. Though that at least is somewhat handled by the inherent randomness of die rolls.

    If one were to design an armor system that even approaches reality, the armor your character wears would probably need at least 4 factors:
    -Which parts are covered by armor. Face, armpits, ankles, tiny slivers of the elbow, etc.
    -What thickness of armor is on each part.
    -What material/construction is the armor on each part. Armor is often layered and composite in nature, so some areas may have multiple types covering them.
    -What level of craftsmanship/material quality is the armor made with in each part. This should also include things like battle damage and maintenance. Armor compromised by rust or rot is going to have compromised effectiveness
    Hyper complex models are often less reliable at simulating reality than simplistic rough and ready models. That’s because you have separate each element correctly then model the interactions that element has with every other element correctly. It’s very easy to get compounding errors magnifying or reducing effects. Even if you do get all of the elements correct the time and effort it takes to process the data just isn’t worth it.

    However when you look at simulating combat there are three elements.
    - Primary safety - how hard is it to hit the target. Size, speed agility factor in. Also shields are primarily there to prevent the main target being hit.
    - Secondary safety - the ability to survive the hit. Basically armor.
    - Tertiary safety - the ability to mitigate the hit, reduce the effect of damage.

    In most tactical/skirmish wargames this gets represented by a roll to hit, an armor roll and a damage roll. D+D merges the roll to hit and the roll for armor effect into one die roll. But in a more ‘realistic’ simulation you might have a character equipped with a shield, some mail and a gambeson. The shield would act as a negative factor in being able to hit the character, the mail would give a chance of negating the hit and the gambeson would have a chance of reducing the effect of the hit (quite possible down to zero).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    In most tactical/skirmish wargames this gets represented by a roll to hit, an armor roll and a damage roll. D+D merges the roll to hit and the roll for armor effect into one die roll. But in a more ‘realistic’ simulation you might have a character equipped with a shield, some mail and a gambeson. The shield would act as a negative factor in being able to hit the character, the mail would give a chance of negating the hit and the gambeson would have a chance of reducing the effect of the hit (quite possible down to zero).
    In GURPS 3rd edition, armor had two factors: DR (Damage resistance), and PD (Passive defense). Attack resolution went something like this:

    1. Roll to hit. If successful,
    2. The target can make an Active Defense roll, adding the PD of the armor -- if this roll is successful the attack is avoided. If not,
    3. Roll damage
    4. Subtract DR from damage

    The idea behind PD was to make it easier to turn a hit into a glancing blow, some armors were better at this than others. Active defenses were things like blocks, parries and dodges. I think they removed Passive defense from 4th edition, but increased the default Active defense value.

    Also they had a hit location system, so you used the armor values for that location. As usual GURPS could get quite complicated, and certain projectile weapons ignored x amount of PD, there were special rules for armor piercing ammunition, etc. DR could be stacked by wearing multiple layers of armor, but (usually) only the PD of the top layer would be used.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    In Blade if The Iron Throne, also Song of Swords, it actually does have a pretty comprehensive system for that.

    You call an attack to an area (say, overhand right) or try to aim for one with ranged weapons, and then 1d6 determines what sub-area of that you hit - for an arm, day, the upper shoulder at one end of the D6 and the hand at the other.

    From there it has ratings ranging from gambeson and stiff leather up through renaissance high end plate, with some eclectic stops like brigandine over maille as well. And while you could stay out each part of your body, it’s easier just to have a common sense picture between the players and GM.


    If you had a short sleeve maille shirt on over a gambeson, there’s a good chance a one handed sword chop to the shoulder will be ineffective - it's going to be converted to blunt, and almost certainly reduce all but the most crushing blow to a minor bruise - while a pole-hammer has a good chance to break bones, and a good thrust MIGHT make it through.

    Your unarmored hand, caught by a slash, is probably going to be a red ruin.

    This all gets resolved in two die rolls : Attack vs Defense, Where it Hit

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Hyper complex models are often less reliable at simulating reality than simplistic rough and ready models. That’s because you have separate each element correctly then model the interactions that element has with every other element correctly. It’s very easy to get compounding errors magnifying or reducing effects. Even if you do get all of the elements correct the time and effort it takes to process the data just isn’t worth it.

    However when you look at simulating combat there are three elements.
    - Primary safety - how hard is it to hit the target. Size, speed agility factor in. Also shields are primarily there to prevent the main target being hit.
    - Secondary safety - the ability to survive the hit. Basically armor.
    - Tertiary safety - the ability to mitigate the hit, reduce the effect of damage.

    In most tactical/skirmish wargames this gets represented by a roll to hit, an armor roll and a damage roll. D+D merges the roll to hit and the roll for armor effect into one die roll. But in a more ‘realistic’ simulation you might have a character equipped with a shield, some mail and a gambeson. The shield would act as a negative factor in being able to hit the character, the mail would give a chance of negating the hit and the gambeson would have a chance of reducing the effect of the hit (quite possible down to zero).
    That's pretty much my opinion too. I prefer DnD's system massively because it's good enough and simple, and not meaningfully less accurate than most simulationist systems.

    The big problem with your proposed model is that attacks are not entirely random things. People will act to exploit weaknesses in their opponents' armor, taking on trade-offs in order to effectively do so. Against well-made plate without a particularly concussing or penetrating weapon, pretty much your only option is to try to hit the parts the plate doesn't cover. If you want to take this into account, you need to actually have armor coverage be a factor. This also involves specific tactical choices, such as attempting to grapple or unbalance a person in full-plate to be able to actually get at the gaps. This of course usually involves putting your limbs within easy stabbing range, and is thus not something you'd normally do unless you had to.

    Basically, a good simulationist armor system to me (if I were to actually play such a thing) isn't just having a billion different types of armor, but having many ways of attacking it, and many ways of exploiting it. This forces both the armor system and the combat system to be more complex.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by AdAstra View Post
    That's pretty much my opinion too. I prefer DnD's system massively because it's good enough and simple, and not meaningfully less accurate than most simulationist systems.

    The big problem with your proposed model is that attacks are not entirely random things. People will act to exploit weaknesses in their opponents' armor, taking on trade-offs in order to effectively do so. Against well-made plate without a particularly concussing or penetrating weapon, pretty much your only option is to try to hit the parts the plate doesn't cover. If you want to take this into account, you need to actually have armor coverage be a factor. This also involves specific tactical choices, such as attempting to grapple or unbalance a person in full-plate to be able to actually get at the gaps. This of course usually involves putting your limbs within easy stabbing range, and is thus not something you'd normally do unless you had to.

    Basically, a good simulationist armor system to me (if I were to actually play such a thing) isn't just having a billion different types of armor, but having many ways of attacking it, and many ways of exploiting it. This forces both the armor system and the combat system to be more complex.
    Just thinking out loud...

    Maybe for something simple, have separate factors for "the armor makes it harder to hit the wearer to simulate more coverage of effectively immune zones" and "the armor reduces damage by absorbing/deflecting some of the energy even if you do hit a non-immune spot".

    This would give many plate armors a high "to hit" effect, but mainly only the "reduction" factor of chain, since many of the gaps you're trying to hit still have chain shirt or voiders or whatever there.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Just thinking out loud...

    Maybe for something simple, have separate factors for "the armor makes it harder to hit the wearer to simulate more coverage of effectively immune zones" and "the armor reduces damage by absorbing/deflecting some of the energy even if you do hit a non-immune spot".

    This would give many plate armors a high "to hit" effect, but mainly only the "reduction" factor of chain, since many of the gaps you're trying to hit still have chain shirt or voiders or whatever there.
    That setup doesn’t really take into account the fact that someone trying to go for such small gaps will be taking significant risks to do so (why I would consider the combat system to be just as important as the armor system when it comes to making complex combat). It’s not simply a matter of “I aim at the weak spot”. I think this part would be best simulated by called shots being not only less accurate, but leaving yourself vulnerable to counterattacks should they fail. By trying to get into position to make a specific strike, rather than any opportunity that presents itself, you’re forced to position and attack in specific ways, ways that make you more predictable, and often more vulnerable. Example:

    Generally the most viable way to take on a person in full plate without either armor of your own or specific weapons would be to knock them over, hold them down, and start shanking them wherever they can be shanked (most likely armpits, crotch, or eyes). This of course, often requires that you get direct limb contact on a person who wants to kill you. That’s why the safest way is to distract them while several of your buddies sneak up behind and blindside them, but that takes numbers.

    On the other hand, if you are armored and your foe is not, your best friend is distance. Keeping some space allows you to make very dangerous attacks with near impunity, and significantly reduces the likelihood of you getting knocked over and shanked. Poke them from afar, use sweeping strikes to ward them off, or perhaps just chuck a rock at their head before they even get close. If they can’t lay a hand on you, it’ll be nearly impossible for them to hurt you without weapons designed for the job. And using those weapons imparts their own weaknesses.

    So the armor system must be complemented by an appropriate combat system, or else you’re not really much better off than with simple ACs. You’d probably want, at the least, a spacing system, a called shot system, and a forced movement system. Something along these lines perhaps:

    Spacing- probably a contested check every time someone wants to try to change the distance between the characters, with opportunity attacks if the initiator fails by a sufficient margin. A tie might give the initiator the choice to take the attack in exchange for a success.

    Called Shot- certain areas require a certain spacing to actually target effectively (ex: basically impossible to target an armpit unless the opponent is grappled, on the ground, or unable to face you), and an aware opponent can contest, giving them a chance to stop your attack and/or land a counterblow. Once again, a tie might give the initiator the ability to take the OA and get their called shot off.

    Forced Movement- Grapples, shoves, etc. a la 5e. Shoves can increase spacing or knock people over, grapples can make it more difficult to get away and makes certain called shots and other combat actions easier/possible.

    Pretty much all of these actions could be covered by one contested check, plus potentially a standard opportunity attack.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-06-06 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    There are actually systems that let you do all the shoving, grappling, head bashing until he’s groggy type armored fighting goodness...and honestly, they are easy enough to run. Easier than day, GMing a d&d caster.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Well the old Riddle of Steel evolved into Blade of The Iron Throne, which I’ve played heavily. Honestly, one of the best balances between realism and (low) fantasy gameplay I’ve seen in a melee system - if you ever wanted a fight where a feinted slash turned into a thrust to the face, only to be barely partied while and the original attacker remains his momentum but his now off balance follow up gets caught in a winding and binding situation that ends up grappling...that’s the system.

    There’s also Song if Swords which has a similar system that gives even more granularity, albeit at more complexity.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    Well the old Riddle of Steel evolved into Blade of The Iron Throne, which I’ve played heavily. Honestly, one of the best balances between realism and (low) fantasy gameplay I’ve seen in a melee system - if you ever wanted a fight where a feinted slash turned into a thrust to the face, only to be barely partied while and the original attacker remains his momentum but his now off balance follow up gets caught in a winding and binding situation that ends up grappling...that’s the system.

    There’s also Song if Swords which has a similar system that gives even more granularity, albeit at more complexity.
    I remember having different experiences with RoS. I even opened a thread about it a year ago https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ices-to-attack
    I would be interested in discussing it, obviously not in this thread.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Admittedly I mostly play the BoIT update. Feel free to start a thread or PM me. My experience is that it plays smoothly

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I was wondering: Is there a fairly comprehensive list somewhere, arranging historical types of armour by actual weight and protective value? I'm thinking of homebrewing a Transylvania-during-Vlad-Tepes esque setting and wanted to maybe overhaul the 5e armour list.
    The DnD set is a pretty good starting point- you're going to have regional variants affected by supplies available, what sort of threats they faced, and everything is going to be complicated by our incomplete historical record. Even for large civilizations, we don't have many examples of nonmetallic armor- it rots away and leaves much less evidence than metal. Then when we go to reproduce it, we make assumptions, compromises, and modifications based on our current understanding- so without knowing if we're using authentic materials, we can't really say how heavy or effective the originals were.

    Take the linothorax, for example. Layers of linen, or possibly leather. We know from art what it looks like, and there are multiple written descriptions- but actually recreating it is well informed inferences.

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/josh...wn-greek-armor

    Then too- you've now got a piece of armor that weighs much less than a metal equivalent, is hard and resistant to damage- should a linothorax be considered padded armor, or a breastplate?

    So I'd go with dnd style ratings- just modify them for the region. If it's an ancient campaign, sure, the linothorax or musculata are both breastplates. If it's Middle Eastern themed, the Char Aina serves as your breastplate, with the heavier examples straying into half plate.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by VonKaiserstein View Post
    The DnD set is a pretty good starting point- you're going to have regional variants affected by supplies available, what sort of threats they faced, and everything is going to be complicated by our incomplete historical record. Even for large civilizations, we don't have many examples of nonmetallic armor- it rots away and leaves much less evidence than metal. Then when we go to reproduce it, we make assumptions, compromises, and modifications based on our current understanding- so without knowing if we're using authentic materials, we can't really say how heavy or effective the originals were.

    Take the linothorax, for example. Layers of linen, or possibly leather. We know from art what it looks like, and there are multiple written descriptions- but actually recreating it is well informed inferences.

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/josh...wn-greek-armor

    Then too- you've now got a piece of armor that weighs much less than a metal equivalent, is hard and resistant to damage- should a linothorax be considered padded armor, or a breastplate?

    So I'd go with dnd style ratings- just modify them for the region. If it's an ancient campaign, sure, the linothorax or musculata are both breastplates. If it's Middle Eastern themed, the Char Aina serves as your breastplate, with the heavier examples straying into half plate.
    This is the start of a problem with D+D and other high fantasy settings. They try to compress all of human weapons and armor technology into one codified system. Yet many of the weapons and armors that are rated never co-existed and thus we have no solid basis for assessing for example how a Roman pilum would fare against gothic plate.

    Historically weapons and armors existed in the context of known technology, available materials, pre-existing traditions, regional economies and trade routes in addition to the wepaons and armors of expected opponents. Apart from so e exceptional circumstances you would never have a situation of. A guy with a wooden club and leather armor facing off against someone in full plate armed with a poleaxe.

    Trying to shoe-horn wildly disparate technologies into a single combat system is problematic if you want to maintain a fiction of granularity. As you say it ends up being “all of these things count as a breadtplate and provide X amount of protection”.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    Well the old Riddle of Steel evolved into Blade of The Iron Throne, which I’ve played heavily. Honestly, one of the best balances between realism and (low) fantasy gameplay I’ve seen in a melee system - if you ever wanted a fight where a feinted slash turned into a thrust to the face, only to be barely partied while and the original attacker remains his momentum but his now off balance follow up gets caught in a winding and binding situation that ends up grappling...that’s the system.

    There’s also Song if Swords which has a similar system that gives even more granularity, albeit at more complexity.
    One of the big problems of less abstracted combat systems is that they tend to be narrow in scope: they take pains to model their chosen part (most likely human with medievalish weapons and armor vs. human with medievalish weapons and armor) and when deviate from this scope things tend to break down or feel lacking. Or, because to game is aware of its narrow scope, is not supported at all.

    There is a good reason why the overwheling majority of games use some kinf of abstract combat system. If well done the moving parts of the system are evocative enough that your mind can construct a visual on how any particular interaction plays out.


    How das Blade of The Iron Throne fares in that regard? Can it handle Ogres, Hellhounds, Bears, Dragons, Zombies or Ghosts as well it can handle humans?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    To keep us short and on the Real World Part, I can say it handles classic S&S enemies well (undead, daemons, vampires, werewolves, a pack of wolves, Grendel from Beowulf, etc.), albeit at a different scaling than D&D.

    Anyhow, I’ll answer black knight in his thread in order to avoid cluttering the real world one.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    This is the start of a problem with D+D and other high fantasy settings. They try to compress all of human weapons and armor technology into one codified system. Yet many of the weapons and armors that are rated never co-existed and thus we have no solid basis for assessing for example how a Roman pilum would fare against gothic plate.
    Sure we do, answer is pretty poorly. Thrown spears weren't completely out of use. You can get really pedantic about it, but only in edge cases where all of the material bits matter, like longbows against munitions-grade plate. Still, we have a pretty good idea even then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Historically weapons and armors existed in the context of known technology, available materials, pre-existing traditions, regional economies and trade routes in addition to the wepaons and armors of expected opponents.
    Historically, cultures did clash a lot. Most of history you get, especially in fantasy, is British-centric, so about England or France. English and nomadic mercenaries being hired as Condottieros in medieval Italy doesn't get much mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Apart from so e exceptional circumstances you would never have a situation of. A guy with a wooden club and leather armor facing off against someone in full plate armed with a poleaxe.
    This describes so, so many wars. Hussites, several uprisings in Hungary, Teutonic Order's Baltic crusades... Expand it a bit and you get heavily armored Mongol keshiks cutting through numerous villiages on Hungarian plains post-Subutai invasion or natives in Amazon being ineffective against armored conquistadors. Or all of Sikh rebellions and Opium wars.

    It's arguably more common for disparate weapon/armor types to face off on the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Trying to shoe-horn wildly disparate technologies into a single combat system is problematic if you want to maintain a fiction of granularity. As you say it ends up being “all of these things count as a breadtplate and provide X amount of protection”.
    Mostly because it does. For vast majority of melee weapons, solid breastplate is the same as lamellar, it's when you get to edge cases (couched lances, pollaxes) where it matters. And modelling this sort of bell curve accurately is very, very hard without a computer doing ti for you.
    That which does not kill you made a tactical error.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Greywolf View Post
    This describes so, so many wars. Hussites, several uprisings in Hungary, Teutonic Order's Baltic crusades... Expand it a bit and you get heavily armored Mongol keshiks cutting through numerous villiages on Hungarian plains post-Subutai invasion or natives in Amazon being ineffective against armored conquistadors. Or all of Sikh rebellions and Opium wars.
    My favourite disparity is the Imjin Wars where the invading samurai went up again Korean cannon and rocket propelled artillery (hwacha).

    Aside from the most recent conflicts with asymmetric warfare, the next one I can think of involving formal militaries is during the start of WW2, where the Poles were in the midst of upgrading their cavalry squadrons to mechanised infantry and ended up being forced to use cavalry against German mechanised infantry and armoured units.

    That said, the Poles weren't stupid and only once through sheer accident at the Battle of Mokra, did they end up executing a cavalry charge against German tanks (or rather Polish cavalry and TKS tankettes reinforcements accidentally drove through the middle of a German Panzer II column).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    ended up being forced to use cavalry against German mechanised infantry and armoured units
    Well, sort of, but not really. At that point, Poles didn't really have cavalry in the saense it was understood at the start of WW1 or before, there were no horsemen ready to charge with melee weapons. What they did have was what is more properly referred to as mounted infantry, that sometimes did shoot their rifles from horseback.

    Spoiler: Photographs of one of the Polish Uhlans, this one carrying anti-tank rifle - not shooting THAT from horseback
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    Spoiler: Here's standard issue gear for those without AT rifles
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    Sure, they had sabres and there was grand total of one battle where they actually used them to some temporary effect, but it was more of a traditional cavalry weapon thing, rather than practical consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Aside from the most recent conflicts with asymmetric warfare
    Assymetrical warfare is not modern, and especially noteworthy in this context - how many TTRPGs pit PCs against overwhelming odds?
    That which does not kill you made a tactical error.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Greywolf View Post
    Sure, they had sabres and there was grand total of one battle where they actually used them to some temporary effect, but it was more of a traditional cavalry weapon thing, rather than practical consideration.
    So if the sabres weren't expected to actually be used, why were they issued? The resources used to make them could have been used to make something else, after all.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    So if the sabres weren't expected to actually be used, why were they issued? The resources used to make them could have been used to make something else, after all.
    Many types of soldiers carry a sidearm. Today that's often a pistol, but you'll notice there is no pistol in that picture of their kit. That's the role the sword fills. It does not work as a primary battle weapon, but it might work in self defense if something is wrong with your rifle. For horse troops the sword might even make a weird sort of sense being chosen over a pistol. If you charge at someone on horseback swinging a sabre around people might step aside and give you the room you need to get away. (If they don't manage to shoot you on the way through.)

    (A bayonet does not count as a sidearm. It can be very useful, but when your gun is lost or broken there's a pretty good chance your bayonet was lost or broken as well, or at least just became a lot less effective.)
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-06-10 at 03:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    I think the Poles even won that battle.

    About sabers, no one was expecting much out of them. I believe that swords killed a grand total of seven Germans during the Franco-Prussian war. And yet, during WWI, iirc the Russians even had cavalrymen with lances (!) due to an inability to modernise the very traditionalist cavalry the way the top brass would have wanted. Too many nobles in there.

    The cavalries were later used in the wars between Poland and Russia, because there was a lack of motorisation, a lack of roads, and the numbers involved were too small to create the impassable defenses of WWI, so it made sense to have highly mobile dragoons. Even then, at least cavalry officers were carrying swords in the revolutionary armies, too. (a communist shashka)

    So I wonder if it was actually an old sign of rank. I didn't look it up, but I wouldn't be surprised if Polish cavalry were made up by an unusually high number of nobles, as the Russian had been, and so being part of the cavalry in and of itself meant a higher social standing that got a sign for it with the sword.

    (There is a Wikipedia article that claims that the Battle of the Niemen river in 1920 between Poland and the Soviets saw a crucial use of lances and swords, but I found no corroboration, and it sounds unlikely.)

    EDIT: Concerning the sword as a sidearm: as observed by Lvl 2 Expert, the sword wouldn't have covered the same role as the bayonet, and indeed we see that the Soviet shashka above is made as a set with a bayonet.

    I think there is no pistol in the loadout posted by Martin?

    Also, some nice photos from Russian parades with historical equipment: https://www.guns.com/news/2018/03/01...ng-away-photos It shows some cavalry with lances, although I think the cavalrymen are actually women.
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2020-06-10 at 08:26 PM.
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