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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Is it true that some good characters aren't nice people? If so, how do they even maintain their goodness?
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Moral busybodies. Doing for the sake of others what they don't even want done.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Warning: TV Tropes (Good Is Not Nice)

    TLDR: Good characters that do what needs to be done, they do good acts (killing evil monsters, rooting out injustice, and even feeding the poor and saving burning orphanages), but aren't necessarily social, friendly, accommodating people.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Google the Kingpriest of Istar.
    He was only "good" in the sense that the authors said he was good. You look at what was actually going on, his regime saw genocide, slavery and thought policing going on.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Is it true that some good characters aren't nice people? If so, how do they even maintain their goodness?
    By that logic, evil can't ever be nice. They must give their children coal on Christmas, beat them on their birthdays, and make fun of their big noses. They must never pet a puppy or serve a non-poisoned meal to their guests.

    Nice is situational. Good/evil isn't.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Is it true that some good characters aren't nice people? If so, how do they even maintain their goodness?
    Think of it this way. Niceness is a good quality. But it is not the only good quality: Valuing justice. Honesty. Fairness. Giving aid/helping others. Facing down evil. Those are also good qualities.

    It is theoretically possible that a person has all those other good qualities. But isnít nice. I would still consider that person good. Just probably not someone I would want to grab a beer with.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    It is perfectly possible to have a strong moral compass and an absolutely rotten personality.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Think of it this way. Niceness is of good quality. But it is not the only good quality: Valuing justice. Honesty. Fairness. Giving aid/helping others. Facing down evil. Those are also good qualities.

    It is theoretically possible that a person has all those other good qualities. But isnít nice. I would still consider that person good. Just probably not someone I would want to grab a beer with.
    But doesn't that defeat the whole definition of being good and everything that stands for being good?
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TeChameleon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    'Nice' has absolutely nothing to do with 'good'. If it did, Canada would be Heaven on Earth.

    It's not 'nice' to confront a loved one about the drug habit that's destroying them; it's not 'nice' to kick down their door when their building is on fire. It's not 'nice' to kill the unrepentant mass-murderer while he's in mid-murder.

    But I think it can be generally agreed that those actions are 'good', or at the very least on the good-ish side of neutral.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    'Nice' has absolutely nothing to do with 'good'. If it did, Canada would be Heaven on Earth.

    It's not 'nice' to confront a loved one about the drug habit that's destroying them; it's not 'nice' to kick down their door when their building is on fire. It's not 'nice' to kill the unrepentant mass-murderer while he's in mid-murder.

    But I think it can be generally agreed that those actions are 'good', or at the very least on the good-ish side of neutral.
    So being nice is meaningless then?
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-26 at 03:42 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    So being nice is meaningless then?
    Pretty much. The chaotic evil villain will be "nice" to string you along until the inevitable betrayal. I mean, people do more things for you if your are nice to them. Even if they are just pawns in the grand scheme of things, and will likely need a good sacrificing by the end....

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraynic View Post
    Pretty much. The chaotic evil villain will be "nice" to string you along until the inevitable betrayal. I mean, people do more things for you if your are nice to them. Even if they are just pawns in the grand scheme of things, and will likely need a good sacrificing by the end....
    Then what's the whole point of being good if you can't be nice to people?
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    By that logic, evil can't ever be nice. They must give their children coal on Christmas, beat them on their birthdays, and make fun of their big noses. They must never pet a puppy or serve a non-poisoned meal to their guests.

    Nice is situational. Good/evil isn't.
    oh, but they can get a small child a pet puppy. then after the child gets attached to it and has some happy memories you shoot the puppy with a tranq dart filled with rabies.
    the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Ignimortis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    But doesn't that defeat the whole definition of being good and everything that stands for being good?
    Nope. Good is what you do, not what you are. As long as your moral compass is aligned towards helping as much as you can, you're good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Then what's the whole point of being good if you can't be nice to people?
    You can be nice. You just don't have to be. It's just one type of good person that's possible, not "every good character isn't nice".
    Last edited by Ignimortis; 2020-07-26 at 01:06 AM.
    Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
    Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Nope. Good is what you do, not what you are. As long as your moral compass is aligned towards helping as much as you can, you're good.



    You can be nice. You just don't have to be. It's just one type of good person that's possible, not "every good character isn't nice".
    Well, my definition of good that nice is part of good but I guess it isn't.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well, my definition of good that nice is part of good but I guess it isn't.
    To be fair to your original definition, goodness and niceness often go hand in hand. And actually I would go further and say that you are mostly correct. Being nice is one part of being good. At least under most common ways of thinking. If you had two people who are otherwise identical in their behavior but one of them greets everyone with a smile and the other just ignores them. Well most people would reckon that the first person is a better person. After all he is making other peoples lives better (or at least attempting to) while the second person isn't. However niceness isn't necessarily a good thing in and of itself and it can get very murky very quickly. Going back to those two people if the first guy was smiling and greeting those folks because he wanted to con them later, that's definitely bad. Even if he was just doing it because he wanted to be on their good side and thought he might get treated better if he was smiling, it's not necessarily bad but I would certainly hesitate to call it good. So you can see how quickly the situation can become foggy especially when taking into account things like motives which might not even be clear to the person doing the action.
    Also as some other posters mentioned sometimes niceness needs to take a back seat in order to do what's right (such as when a person needs to fight a villain or when a fire fighter needs to break down a door). Furthermore all people in real life and most characters in fiction are complex creatures who do not embody goodness but rather exist on a spectrum. Some characters are mostly good (they put themselves in harms way to help others and protect the innocent) but might be mean and surly with everyone including their friends (like Batman). Others are good characters who are nice to everyone (like superman). I would argue that the former is a more fun and interesting character but the latter is a better (in terms of goodness) character.
    Long story short I think you are right overall to associate goodness and niceness but it's a lot more complicated than simply good=nice.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Is it true that some good characters aren't nice people? If so, how do they even maintain their goodness?
    1. Is it moral to be nice? Why is it moral to be nice? Is it morally obligatory, or morally supererogatory?
    2. Do not conflate "Nice" with "Kind", sometimes harsh words are kinder then nice lies.
    3. Can one be moral without being a perfect paragon of morality? Can a event (intent/action/consequence) be moral without involving every moral virtue?


    Yes, some good characters are not nice. Some of them are gruff, harsh, and abrasive. Just like how some evil characters are nice, kind, and even charitable. Morality is not a simple 3 state switch and alignment merely tries to describe a rough over-summarized summary of the character's moral character.

    PS: Was this a real question?
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-07-26 at 05:14 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Granny Weatherwax identifies as GOOD but not NICE.

    Nice worries about feelings, good worries about their outcomes. nice is short term, good is long term.
    "Don't worry about your homework" is nice but not good, "Get upstairs and do your homework is good but not nice"
    "Chocolate is nice for you", "Fruit is good for you"

    I guess you could say Nice isn't orthogonal to Good, but contains an orthogonal component. If you were trying to push it on the D&D alignment* you might have Good going foward/backward, lawfulness left and right and niceness on a diagonal with good (ideally with that diagonal forward (good) and up (something else?), if you needed to keep it on the plane you could bodge it by having it partially tie in only lawfulness 'politeness', or chaos 'generosity')

    *The only good reason for this is to have a D&D character.
    Last edited by jayem; 2020-07-26 at 05:46 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well, my definition of good that nice is part of good but I guess it isn't.
    Nice is part of manipulation, not goodness. The people who are nice to you are the ones you should watch out for.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Yes, one should always be good and nice, but the two are not automatically correlated.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    The Fury's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    So being nice is meaningless then?
    I wouldn't say so. Say you know someone who's struggling. Maybe practical advice would be "good" but, it's not really what they need. Maybe they just need someone to be kind to them. So I think there's some value in being nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Nice is part of manipulation, not goodness. The people who are nice to you are the ones you should watch out for.
    That's awfully cynical.

    If you're talking about "nice" people that always want something from you, sure. I'd agree that they're being manipulative. If someone is being nice without really wanting anything in return... that's probably just who they are.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    If you're talking about "nice" people that always want something from you, sure. I'd agree that they're being manipulative. If someone is being nice without really wanting anything in return... that's probably just who they are.
    Disagree. Nice people are nice because they want something. They want you to be nice back. It creatives a positive feedback loop where you say Good Morning expecting someone to return the greeting. People who don't you look at weirdly and try to avoid while those who do create that feeling you're looking for. Communities form around similar mindsets and ostracize the ones who don't want to comply and conform.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    Disagree. Nice people are nice because they want something. They want you to be nice back.
    This is a nitpick, and not a very useful one at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    It creatives a positive feedback loop where you say Good Morning expecting someone to return the greeting. People who don't you look at weirdly and try to avoid while those who do create that feeling you're looking for. Communities form around similar mindsets and ostracize the ones who don't want to comply and conform.
    This just seems paranoid, like you're assigning some sort of roundabout long-term malice to any polite behavior.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Is it true that some good characters aren't nice people? If so, how do they even maintain their goodness?
    Depends a bit on what counts as good and nice.


    But i can easily imagine someone who would help others in need, ovoid haming people but also not actually enjoying company and being bordeline rude if bothered without a good reason.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Consider a Good character with a charisma of 6 and no ranks in any social skills.

    Why should he be prevented from being Good?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    d6 Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Evil people do evil and are liked for it. Why they give food out people. A mob boss can extort money from those who borrow to give food to those families that are in his neighborhood. He can have someone killed and still help fix your fence that is nice. He can be a slime and sell faulty products but send people to help you move your things. The above are all nice things.

    A good person is honest but struggling to make ends meet and can not afford charity for others. You want to see orphanages starve the children.
    9 wisdom true neutral cleric you know you want me in your adventuring party


  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    This just seems paranoid, like you're assigning some sort of roundabout long-term malice to any polite behavior.
    Where do you see malice? The only thing I remarked on was expectations and the dopamine hit achieved when they're met. Polite people are merely engaging in an exchange of positive vibes for their own personal pleasure. It feels good to be polite and to speak to someone else being polite to you, like they're kissing up to you and you're both sharing the experience. This gets to be quite the drug for excessively positive people who avoid all negativity, locking it away instead where it festers and grows. Cool hatred or a smile with no soul are staples in the long term that show niceness should never be associated with goodness or kindness.

    Heck this even goes back to the adage of paying someone a compliment. The idea that you're paying and being paid in some positive social gift exchange should highlight the benefits that can be construed as self-serving.
    Last edited by Kyutaru; 2020-07-26 at 04:34 PM.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    JadedDM's Avatar

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    Default Re: Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

    Here's an example, Bartmanhomer.

    Goku is Good and Nice.
    Vegeta is Good and Mean.

    Both have saved the world multiple times, sacrificed themselves to save others, and fought to protect the weak. But Goku is a nice guy while Vegeta is usually pretty rude.

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