Results 451 to 480 of 1474
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2019-09-18, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
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- St. Louis
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I will ask another, completely unrelated (to my last question) then.
I recently learned that during the Agincourt period, French knights were known to wear a padded surcoat-like garment called a jupon. Is that just another word for surcoat or something different, and if so how decorated could they be?
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2019-09-18, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Laughing with the sinners
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
It's a specific type of surcoat. It was thickly padded and may have been designed to help defeat arrows.
They briefly discuss the jupon in the arrrows vs armor video I linked further up.
Here it is again if you don;t want to go digging. It's long-ish, but probably the most sound test I've seen, as far as attempts to get the details right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE
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2019-09-18, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I have read about the jupon as a civilian piece of clothing similar to the doublet. It apparently had spanish origin, and it seems that it originally was worn by warriors under the hauberk, but it eventually became a fashionable piece of male clothing...
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2019-09-18, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Whichever one provides most articulation. If you can just wave it around like a wand and slice through steel with a flicking gesture, then maybe stick it in a finger.
If you need to apply force, I wouldn't mount it into the body, I would have a concealed monoblade sword in my cyberarm.
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2019-09-20, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Cippa's River Meadow
- Gender
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
As an aside to the futuretech talk going on, here's a picture that might interest some people: Dutch Royal Army Pantserhouwitser (PZH 2000 155mm SPG) and crew with their loadout:
Spoiler: That's a lotta gun
Of note is the amount of firepower the crew individually have - C8 (carbine version of the Canadian C7 AR), a FN Mag (7.62 GPMG), Minimi (5.56 SAW), plus Panzerfaust (AT weapon), they're as well equipped as any infantry squad.
If anything, they're not as well equipped as other artillery crews - the M109 Paladin has an additional commander hatch mounted .50 MG, which the Dutch PZH 2000 doesn't have.
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2019-09-20, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-09-20, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- Toledo, Ohio
- Gender
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
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2019-09-20, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Makes complete sense. Small arms are, on the state level, absurdly cheap. And on a self propelled artillery piece, it's not like the weight matters.
In return for this investment, you get artillery platoons and batteries that can self secure against low level rear area threats without having to detach additional line elements (and with the transport to keep up as the guns shoot and scoot) or MPs, both of which are always in demand. In western armies in particular, the prohibitively high cost of a soldier means that any chance you get to not have to spend any more guarding something that might be able to guard itself is going to be taken.
Will they likely survive an infantry company or tank platoon coming through? Nah. Might they be able to beat off a raid by special purpose forces or a squad that got bypassed in the fighting and happens to be in the area? Quite possibly.
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2019-09-20, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2019-09-21, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Cippa's River Meadow
- Gender
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2019-09-21, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2019-09-22, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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2019-09-22, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2019-09-22, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- kendal, england
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
honestly? i'd have gone with more cam poles, myself, but im not sure. you wouldn't need that many poles for a crew tent, as most of those are designed in a lean-to fashion and to be supported by the vehicle itself.
my money is the bags to the left of the crew are the cam system poles, and the poles in the centre are something else entirely.
the poles above the fire extinguishers are radio antennas.Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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2019-09-22, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
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2019-09-22, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Radio Antennas.
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2019-09-23, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- St. Louis
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
A real quick question about bascinets: Is there an official name for "prow-face" bascinet visors, for lack of knowing the name myself, and are they actually historical? I've seen images of reproductions claiming to be historic, but my admittedly brief attempts to research has not found any references to them from the period (Of course, I don't know the name, so am not sure what to look for).
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2019-09-23, 04:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Firstly, most naming conventions are thevwork of 19th and 20th century scholars, and are not the words used by the original users of the objects.
That helmet looks a lot like some jousting helmets I have seen. Without going into my book there is nothing about it that screams ‘unhistorical’ to me. It may not be strictly be a replica of an existing historically documented helmet, but it seems to me to be generally correct.
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2019-09-23, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Cippa's River Meadow
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I would agree with Pauly here as the inscription would imply that the armour had a secondary decorative purpose. The lack of air holes on the left hand side of the face visor would also support jousting use, since that's the direction where the majority of exploding lance fragments would come from, thus additional coverage would be preferred over more ventilation.
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2019-09-23, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Slovakia
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
There is no official name, but they did exist, one example I can think of comes from 1300-1350 period, so from the great helmet to bascinet switch.
Spoiler: Chronica Picta, battle of Rozhanovce/Rozgony, the guy wearing it is one of the six Aba brothers (probably Jhon or Ladislaus), fighting the king Charles Robert
That means they are an early model of visored bascinets, and would be reffered to as such in period documentation. They were not tremendously popular, but you do see them cropping up throughout pretty much the entire lifecycle of bascinets.
That aside, your picture is at best a very poor reproduction. The major issue there is the large gap for the eyes - not only will it not stop much of anything, it's angled in such a way that a descending thrust or projectile will easily slide inside and impale squishy bits. The real examples do not have this, uh, "feature".
Spoiler: Some proper flat-faced bascinets, illuminations and reproductions
Especially the last one gives you an iodea of how the upper eyehole rim has to be angled to make this style of visor effective.
Originally Posted by Pauly
Originally Posted by Brother Oni
Originally Posted by Brother Oni
Edit: I had a moment and misidentified the king in first illuminationLast edited by Martin Greywolf; 2019-09-23 at 09:18 AM.
That which does not kill you made a tactical error.
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2019-09-25, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
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2019-09-25, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Slovakia
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
That alone isn't the issue. If you look at those images of actual helmets from the period, they universally have top of the visor angled into a brim that will stop any arrow falling from above from simply slipping into the visor. It's a very easy to make modification once you're hamering a helmet by hand, and it is demonstrably in, as far as I can find, universal use.
What's even worse for a protection-visibility compromise argument is that, well, the helmet is visored. If you want visibility, just raise a visor.
Still, the topic caught my interest and I did some further digging - though with great helmets only as they are my period of interest - into assymetrical airholes. Copnclusions to be made are:
- physical helmets are so few they are statistically insignificant
- many, many manuscripts don't bother with showing them in the first place
- most manuscripts show side picture only, and it's not really possible to tell if those airholes are just artistic license to make the picture more interesting
- there is not a single damned greatheml in the entire Maciejowski bible facing left
That all said, there is some evidence for assymetrical airholes even for greathelmets.
Spoiler: 3/4 profile, assyymetrical airholes, further supported by the left guy not having any visible on the left, 1350
Spoiler: jousting at tournament from Codex Manesse, helmets have symmetrical airholes, so this was not just determined by jousting needs, 1330
Spoiler: another symmetrical jouster, 1320
Spoiler: and another one, 1340
Spoiler: that said, we do have assymetrical jousters, 1360
Spoiler: another assymetrical jouster, on the strength of they bothered to paint his painted helmet, but no airholes, 1315
Spoiler: very, uh, clear artistic license in greathelm protrayal to show angry eyes, or just suicidal knights, other pictures in the same source have much more reasonable eye slits, 1250
Spoiler: very weird one, maybe even author's mistake or digitally mirrored? airholes are assymetrical, but on the wrong sides, 1340
Spoiler: another weird one, airholes are symmetrical, but on top of visor, 1411
Spoiler: you'd be tempted to say, this isn't enough airholes on account of rough sketch, but wait until the next one, 1210
Spoiler: helmet on right side, very few airholes on its left side, right side not visible, 1403
Spoiler: arguably no airholes, the cross for chain that chains helmet to torso is visible, though that may be because the paint has faded or chipped, 1250
Edit: fixed a broken image linkLast edited by Martin Greywolf; 2019-09-25 at 05:27 PM.
That which does not kill you made a tactical error.
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2019-09-25, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Now ai have had time to consult my books, I would reaffirm what Martin Greywolf is saying about the vision slit. It is too large and it is of the wrong shape compared to historical versions.
I would also say that the breaths ins the helmet are either too many for that size breath or the breaths are too large for that many breaths.
The historical solutions to the vision slits being too small were:
- suck it up
- use an open faced helm
- use a visor and close or open it according to the situation.
Medieval closed face helmets universally had small well protected vision slits.Last edited by Pauly; 2019-09-25 at 09:45 PM.
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2019-09-26, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2019-09-27, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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- Bristol, UK
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2019-09-28, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
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- Northern Ohio
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Loosely inspired by an on-line essay that pointed out that the culture of classic D&D was far more like the Iron Age than that of the Middle Ages, I am taking a stab at a campaign set during the transition between the Bronze and Iron Ages. In broad strokes, of course, since the world map will not be Earth and the history will have to take into account, if nothing else, the presence of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins.
I'm looking for a guide to what equipment will be available. From what history I have picked up, not infrequently here (I'm more a medieval buff ordinarily), I gather that bronze and iron swords will be shorter and/or a touch thicker than later medieval swords, that bronze weapons and armour will be slightly heavier and more expensive but stronger than their iron counterparts. Also I recall reading that bronze is easier to work into larger plates. Anything else I should take into account?
DrewID
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2019-09-29, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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- Bristol, UK
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Bronze is easier to work into large pieces (like ship's rams), especially since it requires a lower temperature to work and can be cast into all sorts of shapes, or hammered even when cold. Damaged equipment is pretty easy to repair. Bronze is about 10% denser than an equivalent volume of steel, and well-worked stuff is much better than any kind of iron and even the lowest grades of steel. In the real world, the advantage iron had was that it was plentiful and occurred with coal/charcoal, making it cheap. Tin was harder to source, being the necessary other component besides copper to make bronze, and often didn't appear anywhere near each other. Though depending how early you are, there might be a lot of arsenical bronze around - that's where the stereotype of the lame smith comes from, working with arsenic is very bad for your health.
Start from armour, which will influence the sorts of weapons available. A hoplite-style panoply of bronze plates - helmet, cuirass, shin, thigh and forearm plates - is likely the heaviest armour available. There are textile armours available for something lighter than bronze. Flexible locations covered by leather or textile tassets, and the shield is the most significant piece overall. Unless you're going into late Iron Age, mail doesn't exist. Many warriors will fight with no more protection than helmet and shield.
There are few two-handed weapons because blades can't be made that long and they're not necessary. Two-handed axes are about it. Most swords are shorter than a medieval arming sword, some of them heavy choppers rather than cut-and-thrust. Spears are ubiquitous and the prime weapon used in war. Javelins are also common. If you're going with a European-style late Bronze/early Iron age, bows are weak and underpowered self bows, generally used for hunting rather than war (obviously if you have an eastern/steppe analogy then composite bows are around and much better than the western bows).
Contrary to the oft-perpetuated myth, cavalry could charge (stirrups are necessary for horse-archery, not shock cavalry). However, horses were small and might only be large enough to pull chariots rather than support genuine cavalry. As an example, the original Persians who founded the Achaemenid Empire were charioteers.
If you're considering the maritime stage of affairs (which you should be if it's at all inspired by antiquity), most trade is conducted by sea, with land trade being predominantly from the port to larger settlements that aren't coastal. Which will be rare, most major settlements will be on the coast to take advantage of trade. Most vessels would be oared galleys like the pentekonter, which is equally useful for trade and war. Their primary means of combat is ramming and boarding, with the oarsmen also acting as marines.
Are you going with Bronze age palace economies, where society revolves around the king? Or something less centralised from later? That'll impact stuff like whether there is even currency.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2019-09-29, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Location
- This vicious cabaret
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Here's a nice resource: typology of Bronze Age Aegean swords and daggers.
Last edited by HeadlessMermaid; 2019-09-29 at 06:11 AM.
"We need the excuse of fiction to stage what we truly are." ~ Slavoj Žižek, The Pervert’s Guide to Cinema
"El bien más preciado es la libertad" ~ Valeriano Orobón Fernández, A las barricadas
"If civilization has an opposite, it is war." ~ Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness
Roguish | We Were Rogue | [3.5] Greek Mythology Variant | [3.5] The Fey Compendium
Avatar by Michael Dialynas
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2019-09-29, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I think that this is very problematic, simply because of what "iron age" and "bronze age" actually mean. For example, earlier I read a suggestion of hoplite-like armour. But the Bronze Age in Greece was over by 1000 BC, the Iron Age by 800 BC. The hoplite shield is attested around 700 BC, when both Bronze and Iron ages were over in Greece. Another culture that had hoplites, the Villanovan-Etruscans, also followed a similar timeline. On the other hand, you have the Nordic Iron Age, which lasted from the 5th century BC to the 8th century AD, and is followed directly by the Viking Age. Could an early iron-age Scandinavian have put his hands on hoplite armour? Maybe. I don't think it happened, but a PC would definitely find a way.
If you are interested in Greece, you can take a look at this article, there are some images of weapons found in graves. https://www.academia.edu/10436377/Gr...erranean_2014_Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2019-09-29, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
There's also simply the question of what someone means by "bronze age" or "iron age", I've noticed in the literature that quite often this has less to do with the metals being used and more to do with broader presumed/associated cultural elements.
More basically, bronze and iron were used side-by-side for a long time, long after the "bronze age" was nominally over in many places; and iron was the primary metal in use long after the "iron age" was over in many places.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.