Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

[gkathellar]

Loosely inspired by an on-line essay that pointed out that the culture of classic D&D was far more like the Iron Age than that of the Middle Ages, I am taking a stab at a campaign set during the transition between the Bronze and Iron Ages. In broad strokes, of course, since the world map will not be Earth and the history will have to take into account, if nothing else, the presence of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins.

I'm looking for a guide to what equipment will be available. From what history I have picked up, not infrequently here (I'm more a medieval buff ordinarily), I gather that bronze and iron swords will be shorter and/or a touch thicker than later medieval swords, that bronze weapons and armour will be slightly heavier and more expensive but stronger than their iron counterparts. Also I recall reading that bronze is easier to work into larger plates. Anything else I should take into account?

DrewID

Out of curiosity, is this the essay you're referring to?

[Storm Bringer]

Loosely inspired by an on-line essay that pointed out that the culture of classic D&D was far more like the Iron Age than that of the Middle Ages, I am taking a stab at a campaign set during the transition between the Bronze and Iron Ages. In broad strokes, of course, since the world map will not be Earth and the history will have to take into account, if nothing else, the presence of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins.

I'm looking for a guide to what equipment will be available. From what history I have picked up, not infrequently here (I'm more a medieval buff ordinarily), I gather that bronze and iron swords will be shorter and/or a touch thicker than later medieval swords, that bronze weapons and armour will be slightly heavier and more expensive but stronger than their iron counterparts. Also I recall reading that bronze is easier to work into larger plates. Anything else I should take into account?

DrewID

assuming your talking about the eastern med bronze age (ie, the Egyptians, Persians, Hitties, etc), yhea, a few.

Good Kit is Rare: while the best bronze cuirasses are better than most early iron ones, they were fantastically expensive, far more so then even late medieval full plate armour was. while people think of classical Greece as bronze age, that was iron age, and the historical bronze age was much earlier, like the siege of troy era.

This is a image of historical bronze age armour, of the type used by the Mycenaean Greek peoples of 1000BC.

Spoiler

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what your looking at here is not only the most protective armour available, but something only the kings and other top-tier nobles could have afforded. the man is barefoot because we don't actually know what footwear he would have worn (or even if he did wear shoes at all. plently of artwork form the period shows people being barefooted, and we cant say for certain wether this is artistic licence or an accurate portrayal).

most of the warriors of the time would have had a shield, and maybe a helmet, and thats about it armour wise. the richer ones in the mid tier might have a form of padded armour called a linothorax, made of layers of cloth glued together. apparently, this armour was quite effective, at least for its time. the Shield, however, was the major protection, and owning one was THE major perquisite for being seen as a warrior, because of the shield-wall/phalanx like tactics of the day, a warrior without a shield could not stand in the line of battle, so was relegated to secondary roles.

the link is to a modern reproduction of classical greek linothorax, but armour of this style is mentioned by Homer in the Iliad, so it was around back then as well.

[DrewID]

Out of curiosity, is this the essay you're referring to?

I don't think so; I seem to recall more info about the similarities between D&D culture and Iron Age society. But it has been a while.

DrewID

[DrewID]

Thank you all for the data on Bronze Age kit. It looks like what I want may be more Iron Age Greece than Bronze Age, with Bronze kit still in use because it is better than the equivalent iron/early steel kit for those who can afford it. There are places in the world where both tin and copper are found (Chile if I recall); they're just not in the Eastern Med. I plan to include a nation that has both: they will have been a world power in the past, and remain well organized, but they are losing influence to larger iron-equipped armies. In any event, D&D's version of Medieval Europe has set the bar pretty low for historical accuracy; I can scarcely fail to improve on that.

DrewID

[Kiero]

Thank you all for the data on Bronze Age kit. It looks like what I want may be more Iron Age Greece than Bronze Age, with Bronze kit still in use because it is better than the equivalent iron/early steel kit for those who can afford it. There are places in the world where both tin and copper are found (Chile if I recall); they're just not in the Eastern Med. I plan to include a nation that has both: they will have been a world power in the past, and remain well organized, but they are losing influence to larger iron-equipped armies. In any event, D&D's version of Medieval Europe has set the bar pretty low for historical accuracy; I can scarcely fail to improve on that.

DrewID

Bronze was still in use right through the Iron Age, from Classical to Hellenistic to Roman eras. It was still a good option for cuirasses, greaves and other armour plate. Ships rams were still made from bronze (because iron would rust within weeks) and marines still made use of bronze weapons, because they lasted a lot longer in a maritime environment. It was also still perfectly serviceable for things like arrowheads (steppe horsemen still used bronze and even bone arrowheads throughout these periods).

One place in the eastern Mediterranean that did have tin and copper close together was Turkey. However the tin was mined out very rapidly, which left everyone relying on British tin, which was distant.

[Storm Bringer]

Thank you all for the data on Bronze Age kit. It looks like what I want may be more Iron Age Greece than Bronze Age, with Bronze kit still in use because it is better than the equivalent iron/early steel kit for those who can afford it. There are places in the world where both tin and copper are found (Chile if I recall); they're just not in the Eastern Med. I plan to include a nation that has both: they will have been a world power in the past, and remain well organized, but they are losing influence to larger iron-equipped armies. In any event, D&D's version of Medieval Europe has set the bar pretty low for historical accuracy; I can scarcely fail to improve on that.

DrewID

sounds pretty good.

a minor point, but the major bar to the use of iron was technological, specifically the ability to get smelters hot enough to work the iron, which required a switch to forced draught bloomery smelters. Notably, they weren't working with melted iron, as they couldn't get that hot until the later medieval period( copper/bronze melts at roughly 1000*C, but iron needs to be 1800*C to melt), but a iron-slag mix called "bloom" that they hammered (wrought) most of the slag out then hammered into whatever shape they wanted.

this is why bronze was able to keep a qualitive edge over iron/steel for so long, because it was much purer and be able to be cast into shapes as opposed to wrought into shape (which hardens the iron but also makes it more brittle). Theirs accounts of bronze weapons bending in fights and mentions of warriors stamping on their bronze swords to straighten them back up mid-battle, but iron weapons would just snap instead. it also meant that it wasn't practical to make big plates of iron, hence why the greek hoplites wore bronze breastplates, and the roman lorica segmentica (made 500 years later with better quality iron) still needed to be made of smaller plates tied together*.

thus, even during the "iron age", bronze was a major material for weapons and armour, and often the preferred metal for the nobles (for example, the Warring States Chinese officers and generals kept using bronze swords long after the rank and file had switched to cheaper but less effective iron weapons)




*side note: the DnD "studded leather" is a basically a misunderstanding of imagery of this sort of armour, specifically the "coat of plates" wear small metal plates are riveted to a leather jacket,

[Kiero]

For all its Hollywood appeal, I get the impression the lorica segmentata wasn't actually very good armour. Instead, it was cheap to mass-produce, and thus good at equipping lots of men. I don't think it's a coincidence that after the fall of the Western Roman empire, most warriors reverted to mail (lorica hamata) and banded armour like the segmentata never really re-appeared.

[AdAstra]

For all its Hollywood appeal, I get the impression the lorica segmentata wasn't actually very good armour. Instead, it was cheap to mass-produce, and thus good at equipping lots of men. I don't think it's a coincidence that after the fall of the Western Roman empire, most warriors reverted to mail (lorica hamata) and banded armour like the segmentata never really re-appeared.

That runs into the issue of lorica squamata (scale armor), which also saw significant usage, and for the most part would have all the advantages of segmentata in terms of ease of production. Between wire/sheet links, scales, and small plates, my money would be on scales being the cheapest, in addition to probably being easier to replace than segmentata plates.

One thing to consider is that the primary armor of a legionary wasn’t on his body, it was in his hand. The large shields that the romans used were the main defensive implement, with armor for the most part being a backup. In many scenarios, you don’t need a decent amount of protection over a large area, you need better protection over your vital bits, which lorica segmentata may have been able to provide in comparison to chainmail or scale. The shoulder plates might be seen as unnecessary for this, but I would disagree with that too. An injury to the shoulder will almost certainly impair one’s ability to maneuver a shield or weapon, even more so than an injury elsewhere on the arm. Considering that the romans were capable of doing rudimentary case-hardening, segmentata may have been perfect for that niche of “lightweight, not-too-cumbersome armor that can very reliably stop hits to your torso”,or at least good enough to offset it’s lower coverage and higher maintenance requirements/lower durability than scale or mail.

Economy was surely a factor, but I get the feeling that there was more to it in light of other options being superior in that area (scale).

[Storm Bringer]

For all its Hollywood appeal, I get the impression the lorica segmentata wasn't actually very good armour. Instead, it was cheap to mass-produce, and thus good at equipping lots of men. I don't think it's a coincidence that after the fall of the Western Roman empire, most warriors reverted to mail (lorica hamata) and banded armour like the segmentata never really re-appeared.

well, its worth noting that the romans themselves went back to chainmail, and even at the height of its use it never totally replaced chainmail armour. I believe their was also a issue with rusting brought on by form using brass fittings and sweat (the salt, brass and iorn created a battery like effect, that weakened the iron around the fastenings, in the same way the iron nails in early copper bottomed ships caused issues with the hull.

however, I think the major issue was that it required mass production of multiple different plates, and as the empire declined the centralised, high capacity factories that made them were either lost or switched to other tasks.

[Max_Killjoy]

Is there any evidence of the segmentata being used over the top of chainmail, as added protection for shoulders and upper torso?

[Pauly]

Is there any evidence of the segmentata being used over the top of chainmail, as added protection for shoulders and upper torso?

I’m pretty sure that’s what happened in the Dacian campaign when the Romans found themselves facing off against 2 handed falxmen.

[Kiero]

I’m pretty sure that’s what happened in the Dacian campaign when the Romans found themselves facing off against 2 handed falxmen.

I thought they added ridges to their helmets and manicae to their shield arms in response to the falx?

[Corneel]

I think that this is very problematic, simply because of what "iron age" and "bronze age" actually mean. For example, earlier I read a suggestion of hoplite-like armour. But the Bronze Age in Greece was over by 1000 BC, the Iron Age by 800 BC. The hoplite shield is attested around 700 BC, when both Bronze and Iron ages were over in Greece. Another culture that had hoplites, the Villanovan-Etruscans, also followed a similar timeline. On the other hand, you have the Nordic Iron Age, which lasted from the 5th century BC to the 8th century AD, and is followed directly by the Viking Age. Could an early iron-age Scandinavian have put his hands on hoplite armour? Maybe. I don't think it happened, but a PC would definitely find a way.

If you are interested in Greece, you can take a look at this article, there are some images of weapons found in graves. https://www.academia.edu/10436377/Gr...erranean_2014_

And then there were areas that skipped bronze and went from stone to iron such as Western & Central Africa (from which iron working spread to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa).

[Max_Killjoy]

I’m pretty sure that’s what happened in the Dacian campaign when the Romans found themselves facing off against 2 handed falxmen.

I thought they added ridges to their helmets and manicae to their shield arms in response to the falx?

I had heard somewhere that the horizontal ridge along the back and sides of their helmet was added to deflect downward blows away from the neck, due to the falx strikes tending to come over the top of their shields and slide down the back or side of the helmet.

[Pauly]

I thought they added ridges to their helmets and manicae to their shield arms in response to the falx?

I do know, but can’t find my source, that the legionnaires were given additional gladiator’s armor for the Dacian campaign.

[Kiero]

I do know, but can’t find my source, that the legionnaires were given additional gladiator’s armor for the Dacian campaign.

The manica is a piece of armour used by the murmillo gladiator - it covers the arm.

[VonKaiserstein]

The manica was used by the legions, just not uniformly and probably not consistently. Sadly I'm not fluent in the language of the caption, but you can see it in this illustration. The article itself is very good, super detailed. Scroll about 1/3 of the way down to where it's really talking about the arms and armaments over the centuries.

Interestingly one thing you would never see were two manicae (manicas?) on one soldier- it was supplementary armor for the weapon arm, and not worn on the shield arm. It also mentions the encounter with the falx, and the reaction in Roman helmet construction.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/0...bce-to-170-ad/

edit-
Ooh, and here's a scholarly article with archaeological evidence, sculpture analysis and tombstone identification. Enjoy!

http://www.romanarmy.net/manica.shtml

[Vinyadan]

The manica was used by the legions, just not uniformly and probably not consistently. Sadly I'm not fluent in the language of the caption, but you can see it in this illustration. The article itself is very good, super detailed. Scroll about 1/3 of the way down to where it's really talking about the arms and armaments over the centuries.

Interestingly one thing you would never see were two manicae (manicas?) on one soldier- it was supplementary armor for the weapon arm, and not worn on the shield arm. It also mentions the encounter with the falx, and the reaction in Roman helmet construction.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/0...bce-to-170-ad/

edit-
Ooh, and here's a scholarly article with archaeological evidence, sculpture analysis and tombstone identification. Enjoy!

http://www.romanarmy.net/manica.shtml

The captions are in Italian. The one of the soldier from the Dacian wars essentially repeats what was said earlier, that the manica and the helm were given to some Roman units as an answer to the Dacian scythes. It defines the helm as Spangenhelm, a "segmented helm of Danubian origin". It seems to me that the soldier in question is wearing a lorica plumata.

[Pauly]

The manica is a piece of armour used by the murmillo gladiator - it covers the arm.

Thanks, without my books I had forgotten the proper names.

[Kiero]

The falx isn't a scythe; I don't think it would be very useful for any attempts to harvest crops since the blade is set at the wrong angle.



Here's the various ancient Balkan choppers, the sica, falx and rhomphaia.

[Pauly]

The falx isn't a scythe; I don't think it would be very useful for any attempts to harvest crops since the blade is set at the wrong angle.



Here's the various ancient Balkan choppers, the sica, falx and rhomphaia.

The same way a medieval “war scythe” is not a true scythe. It’s fairly common for unfamiliar objects to be given a name of a common object people are familiar with. I don’t know if it is a fact, but it wouldn’t surprise me if in Italian falxes and rhomphaia are colloquially known as scythes.

As an aside falxes and rhomphaia look a lot like a short handled medieval war scythe.

[Vinyadan]

The same way a medieval “war scythe” is not a true scythe. It’s fairly common for unfamiliar objects to be given a name of a common object people are familiar with. I don’t know if it is a fact, but it wouldn’t surprise me if in Italian falxes and rhomphaia are colloquially known as scythes.

As an aside falxes and rhomphaia look a lot like a short handled medieval war scythe.

While English uses Latin words directly like "falx" or "gladius", Italian generally uses the Italian or italianate form (falce, gladio). "Falce", per se, means "scythe". And yes, I used scythe in the same, ambiguous way we use billhook. Rather than the war scythe, I was thinking of the one and only preserved scythe sword, which belonged to the peasant leader and preacher Thomas Müntzer (d. 1525 AD).

In this particular case the translation I made was incorrect, however, since what I called "scythe" was called rhomphaia in the text; I thought it was the Greek name of the falx. Now that I look it up, rhomphaia as a word precedes the Dacian wars, and I found it first used in Greek in the third century BC to describe the sword used to decapitate Goliath, and there it simply means a very large sword. Interestingly, in Latin it was first described as a long "telum" (missile), and later as a sword or spear. Telum in theory can also simply mean "weapon", thrown or melee, but it's interesting that Albanian and Macedonian apparently still have words derived from the name of the rhomphaia to mean "thunderbolt". This is pretty common with names of missiles (see the aforementioned thunderbolt). Who knows, maybe in Dacian it was a generic name for weapons, or it meant "the long one".

The Romans were rather liberal with what they called falx (falx messoria: sickle, falx foenaria: scythe, falx vinitoria: a billhook used in vineyards, falx putatoria: a billhook for tree branches, falx with the meaning of "securis": axe; then you have the falx muralis, a hook they used to pull down walls during sieges, and, apparently, also a falx navalis used in naval engagements); so, curved blades, mostly. You can see something similar with the weapon we call falchion, a name also derived from falx.

About agricultural use, while I assume that the weapons the Dacians used against the Romans were born as war weapons, the sica and falx definitely resemble certain agricultural instruments, even with a straight handle (compare the sickle held by Saturnus). But they admittedly would resemble the various other falces rather than the scythe, which, in Roman times, could be much more arched that today.

[Lemmy]

So... A question for those who know Asian, spespecially Japanese, culture better than I do...

It isn't exactly about weapons/tactics, and it mau be a really dumb question, but... Is purple (and/or maybe dark blue) associated with assassination, poison, cruelty or something like that?

It's just something I've been wondering about after seeing many, many characters with a purple-dominant color scheme and assassin/poison/cruelty theme.

(Seriously... Just in the Street Fighter universe there are like... 4 or 5 purple-clad assassins/sadists/psycopaths).

[Pauly]

So... A question for those who know Asian, spespecially Japanese, culture better than I do...

It isn't exactly about weapons/tactics, and it mau be a really dumb question, but... Is purple (and/or maybe dark blue) associated with assassination, poison, cruelty or something like that?

It's just something I've been wondering about after seeing many, many characters with a purple-dominant color scheme and assassin/poison/cruelty theme.

(Seriously... Just in the Street Fighter universe there are like... 4 or 5 purple-clad assassins/sadists/psycopaths).

I am living in Japan current,y. I haven’t done any study into color associations, but I have discussed color associations with some Japanese students. Unfortunately the color purple hasn’t come up.

What I have noticed is that purple is associated with hiding in shadows. A lot of yokai are depicted in purple. Many dark type pokemon have purple as a major or minor color.

I think that purple is primarily associated with dark/shadow and from there it naturally lends itself to being a color used to depict assassins and poisoners.

[gkathellar]

So... A question for those who know Asian, spespecially Japanese, culture better than I do...

It isn't exactly about weapons/tactics, and it mau be a really dumb question, but... Is purple (and/or maybe dark blue) associated with assassination, poison, cruelty or something like that?

It's just something I've been wondering about after seeing many, many characters with a purple-dominant color scheme and assassin/poison/cruelty theme.

(Seriously... Just in the Street Fighter universe there are like... 4 or 5 purple-clad assassins/sadists/psycopaths).

Purple is traditionally a color of aristocracy and wealth in Japan, as in many other places.

I suspect the main reason you'd see purple used for "dark" characters is simple color theory: dark purple naturally complements or substitutes for black.

[Lemmy]

I am living in Japan current,y. I haven’t done any study into color associations, but I have discussed color associations with some Japanese students. Unfortunately the color purple hasn’t come up.

What I have noticed is that purple is associated with hiding in shadows. A lot of yokai are depicted in purple. Many dark type pokemon have purple as a major or minor color.

I think that purple is primarily associated with dark/shadow and from there it naturally lends itself to being a color used to depict assassins and poisoners.

Purple is traditionally a color of aristocracy and wealth in Japan, as in many other places.

I suspect the main reason you'd see purple used for "dark" characters is simple color theory: dark purple naturally complements or substitutes for black.

Those are good points... Like how they use dark blue instead of black in American comics because it's easier to paint around

Spoiler: Case in point: Ghost Rider's jacket.

Show

Huh... That said, I thought the "Purple = Royalty" thing was only in Europe.

But, by all gods... So many purple assassins/psychopaths/sadists... Even ones that don't even use stealth...

Spoiler: Purple-Clad Killers

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And those are just from Street Fighter! And not including the ones that wear different colors, but use some sort of purple energy, like Akuma and M.Bison...

[Max_Killjoy]

Purple has been associated with royalty off and on in Japanese culture and law -- though it seems to often have been a lighter purple than we're discussing.

[Martin Greywolf]

Purple is associated with royalty worldwide simply because, before synthetic dyes, it was expensive as hell. Lesser known fact is that there are two kinds of purple, expensive for different reasons.

Tyrian purple is western/European purple, it can be crimson to light purple in actual color, and is expensive because you need a massive amount of very specific sea snails to make it. It was so expensive only the very wealthiest, like emperors and kings, could afford clothes made of fabric with base purple color, usually with gold thread and other bling. THe wealthiest merchants and dukes could persumably afford, say, a hat.

Spoiler: Tyrian purple reproduction

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Then there is Qi purple, popularized by an emperor of China's Qi dynasty. It has a less rich shade of purple compared to Tyrian and is made from gromwell plant root - it is expensive because it's a massive pain in the neck to get it to stick to fabric, though it wasn't quite as expensive as Tyrian, since high nobles could afford it.

Spoiler: Qi purple reproduction

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That said, you still had lesser substitutes, and could make sort of purple, but not quite with them. THese usually are fairly dull colors, or approach brown or red much more than the above two purple variants.

Spoiler: Purple substitutes, made with alkanet, lichens or logwood

Show

It is therefore quite apparent why Qi and Tyrian purple had its status - the only time you could see a color like that, either delicately or richly purple, was when someone re3ally, really important showed up in your corner of the world.

Or, y'know, in actual flowers. Give that ninja a hula skirt of forget-me-nots!

[Kiero]

Can't mention the colour purple without also mentioning sumptuary laws, of which purple clothing was the most visible sign of ostentation that such laws were designed to curb.

Those laws in ancient Greece and Rome specifically referenced purple clothing, alongside gold and other luxuries.

[Pauly]

Those are good points... Like how they use dark blue instead of black in American comics because it's easier to paint around

Huh... That said, I thought the "Purple = Royalty" thing was only in Europe.

But, by all gods... So many purple assassins/psychopaths/sadists... Even ones that don't even use stealth...

And those are just from Street Fighter! And not including the ones that wear different colors, but use some sort of purple energy, like Akuma and M.Bison...

As you’ve noted dark blue is associated with shadows in Western art. It’s not unusual for colors associated with a particular thing change in different cultures.
Some examples I have come across in Japan.
The Sun: Western = yellow; Japan = red.
Good luck: Western = green (luck of the Irish); Japan = red.