Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

[Max_Killjoy]

As you’ve noted dark blue is associated with shadows in Western art. It’s not unusual for colors associated with a particular thing change in different cultures.
Some examples I have come across in Japan.
The Sun: Western = yellow; Japan = red.
Good luck: Western = green (luck of the Irish); Japan = red.

Death: Western = black; Japan = white (I think)

[Pauly]

Death: Western = black; Japan = white (I think)

That’s changing now. I was thinking of putting it on the list, but it aint that cut and dried in 2019

[deuterio12]

A purple toga was basically the ultimate luxury item in ancient times.

Death: Western = black; Japan = white (I think)

Interestingly enough despite being opposite colors the original reason is the same.

That original reason because people since ancient times thought that death rituals like funerals would attract all kind of nasty spirits, so the living during said death ritual started to dress in a way to "disguise" themselves from said nasty spirits.

In the west that meant dressing in black since people were mostly pale-white skinned, so supposedly the spirits would ignore a bunch of black-clad figures.

In Japan where people had other shades of skin, they would dress in white for the same exact reason.

Although it progressively became more a matter of tradition.

Meanwhile in several places of Africa black is associated with good luck and life because it's the color of rain clouds.

[Beleriphon]

As you’ve noted dark blue is associated with shadows in Western art. It’s not unusual for colors associated with a particular thing change in different cultures.
Some examples I have come across in Japan.
The Sun: Western = yellow; Japan = red.
Good luck: Western = green (luck of the Irish); Japan = red.

It isn't just shadow, its a highlight on black. Batman's cape and cowl were never supposed to be blue, but due to comic book printing they only effective way to show shape and motion on something that is supposed to be black is to highlight with blue. Unfortunately this make it look like a blue object with deep shadows. The above picture of Ghost Rider is better as the highlight is a very deep navy blue, and its obvious he's wearing a black biker jacket so we immediately read it as a highlight rather than the base colour.

Anyway, yes purple. Rich guys love the stuff in the pre-modern world. I'm assuming this is the reason for the purple stripe on senators togas in Rome.

[Clistenes]

The meaning of colour changes even among different European countries... In UK blue is associated to sadness, but in Spain it is associated to the sky, purity, sanctity and peace...

That original reason because people since ancient times thought that death rituals like funerals would attract all kind of nasty spirits, so the living during said death ritual started to dress in a way to "disguise" themselves from said nasty spirits.

In the west that meant dressing in black since people were mostly pale-white skinned, so supposedly the spirits would ignore a bunch of black-clad figures.

In Japan where people had other shades of skin, they would dress in white for the same exact reason.

Although it progressively became more a matter of tradition.

Meanwhile in several places of Africa black is associated with good luck and life because it's the color of rain clouds.

Actually, while that is a real theory by real antropologists, it is a gross generalization...

Ancient Roman and medieval English widows wore black, but Middle and Modern Age Spanish and French people wore white.

And Japanese people's skin tone isn't really that different from Europeans'. The reason Asians got associated with yellow colored skin is due to British and German racist "antropologists" from the Colonial period who tried to put every human "race" into a color-coded box. Hence Europeans were White, Africans were Black, Arabs were Brown, Asians were Yellow, Native Americans were Red, and Indians were Green..

Japanese use white as mourning colour due to Buddhist influence; White, representing purity, was a mourning colour in India, and Buddhist propagated that custom to many countries...

[awa]

Im curious about battle standards and field musicians specifically how they were used in the east (any where between the middle east and china would be good enough)

Did they use them the same way as in Europe? The information I found on my own is either to modern or European focused to help me.

[Pauly]

Im curious about battle standards and field musicians specifically how they were used in the east (any where between the middle east and china would be good enough)

Did they use them the same way as in Europe? The information I found on my own is either to modern or European focused to help me.

At its simplest they were used the same way:
Musicians to transmit order.
Standards to show where the boss was.

Most ancient battles and early gunpowder battle were on flat plains so standards were surprisingly visible.

[awa]

So they were in common use in those regions?
Does any one know what instruments were used?

[Pauly]

So they were in common use in those regions?
Does any one know what instruments were used?

Standards were in use pretty well everywhere, flags being the most common. In some places and some times oversize parasols on a chariot or elephant were also used.

Musicians most commonly used trumpets and drums. Stringed instruments and flutes weren’t loud enough to be heard on the battlefield unless used en masse.

[Beleriphon]

IIRC, and please correct me, but the Vietnamese word for noble of some particular rank is roughly "bannerman", that is to say he has a banner to indicate his troops in a battle.

[Max_Killjoy]

IIRC, and please correct me, but the Vietnamese word for noble of some particular rank is roughly "bannerman", that is to say he has a banner to indicate his troops in a battle.

See English custom, as well -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_banneret

[awa]

that's good I thought it was the case but I couldn't find any references to support it

[Pauly]

IIRC, and please correct me, but the Vietnamese word for noble of some particular rank is roughly "bannerman", that is to say he has a banner to indicate his troops in a battle.

I’ve read translations from Chinese that use “bannerman” to indicate an officer, for precisely the same reason Whether that is a strictly accurate translation is another question.

[Vinyadan]

In unrelated news, the fluffiest helms (fresco from a Pompeian tavern).

More info.

[Khedrac]

And, on a completely different topic, I have a lot of respect for the military historians that frequent this thread, so can anyone suggest a decent account of the Zeebrugge raid from WWI, my interest being the events relating to HMS Thetis, including her evacuation.

Thanks in advance.

[Pauly]

And, on a completely different topic, I have a lot of respect for the military historians that frequent this thread, so can anyone suggest a decent account of the Zeebrugge raid from WWI, my interest being the events relating to HMS Thetis, including her evacuation.

Thanks in advance.

Have you tried the Official History? The WW1 official histories (at least for the British Empire) are usually very well written and well detailed.

[Khedrac]

Have you tried the Official History? The WW1 official histories (at least for the British Empire) are usually very well written and well detailed.

Good first suggestion - looking around I am surprised to find that the text of the British Offical History of the war at sea is online, unfortunately because it is trying to cover the whole war it only skims the ssential details with very little detail, and nothing about what went on aboard. Considering that at least one of the medals handed out went to some of those on board the Thetis I know there is more to the story - and that is what I am after and why I think I need a detailed account.
(It's odd how the available citations for medal awards vary greatly in terms of what one can learn from them.)

Looking at google, Phillip Warner's account is the main one that comes up, but I wondered if people here would recommend for or against it.

[Beleriphon]

Looking at google, Phillip Warner's account is the main one that comes up, but I wondered if people here would recommend for or against it.

Have you tried Google Scholar to see if anything pops up in relation either crew, or the ship itself?

[Khedrac]

Have you tried Google Scholar to see if anything pops up in relation either crew, or the ship itself?

Not heard of Google Scholar - looking it up now - thank-you.

[Pauly]

Good first suggestion - looking around I am surprised to find that the text of the British Offical History of the war at sea is online, unfortunately because it is trying to cover the whole war it only skims the ssential details with very little detail, and nothing about what went on aboard. Considering that at least one of the medals handed out went to some of those on board the Thetis I know there is more to the story - and that is what I am after and why I think I need a detailed account.
(It's odd how the available citations for medal awards vary greatly in terms of what one can learn from them.)

Looking at google, Phillip Warner's account is the main one that comes up, but I wondered if people here would recommend for or against it.

I like to go to original war diaries/ship’s logs/after action reports when available when looking into this type of research. Not sure if HMS Thetis’ ship’s log will be available.
Some links I found doing some digging

https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Bat...uggeOstend.htm

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8596/data.pdf

https://www.firstworldwar.com/diarie..._carpenter.htm

http://www.victoriacross.co.uk/zeebrugge%20items.html

[Khedrac]

I like to go to original war diaries/ship’s logs/after action reports when available when looking into this type of research. Not sure if HMS Thetis’ ship’s log will be available.
Some links I found doing some digging

https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Bat...uggeOstend.htm

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8596/data.pdf

https://www.firstworldwar.com/diarie..._carpenter.htm

http://www.victoriacross.co.uk/zeebrugge%20items.html

Thank-you indeed - I was getting nowhere with Google Scholar.

[Pauly]

Thank-you indeed - I was getting nowhere with Google Scholar.

Some others that came up with some revised searches
https://www.firstworldwar.com/source...admiralty1.htm

http://www.vliz.be/imisdocs/publications/271543.pdf

I much prefer the original contemporaneous reports over later scholarly works. The later works usually just rehash the original reports and then add a layer of their own analysis, which may or may not be valuable.

[Khedrac]

Some others that came up with some revised searches
https://www.firstworldwar.com/source...admiralty1.htm

http://www.vliz.be/imisdocs/publications/271543.pdf

I much prefer the original contemporaneous reports over later scholarly works. The later works usually just rehash the original reports and then add a layer of their own analysis, which may or may not be valuable.

And thank-you again, the second of those two links looks worth reading fully (though it doesn't appear to have much of the details of the Thetis) so I think I know what my next book to read is!

Interestingly the first link has some clear errors! I know from multiple other sources that the crew of the Thetis abandoned ship onto the cutter, and were rescued from the cutter; but the Admiratly statement implies that they were picked up from the Thetis herself. The value of checking multiple sources becomes clear.

As she lay she signalled invaluable directions to the others, and here her commander blew the charges and sank her. A motor launch raced alongside and took off her crew. Her losses were five killed and five wounded.

[Yora]

When did we first see battles in which there is major fighting between main forces over multiple days, and what developments in technology and organization made this possible?

It seems to become a frequent occurrence in the American Civil War, but there was also the Battle of Leipzig some 70 years earlier.

[Pauly]

When did we first see battles in which there is major fighting between main forces over multiple days, and what developments in technology and organization made this possible?

It seems to become a frequent occurrence in the American Civil War, but there was also the Battle of Leipzig some 70 years earlier.

There have been battles over several days throughout history. In the pre gunpowder era they were more common in Asia than in Europe.

Some factors that make a multiple day battle more likely include.
- Very large armies.
- Both sides having favorable defensive ground.
- A reliance on missile weapons over melee.
- Evenly matched opponents (after taking into account technology differences and terrain advantages).

The two big factors that made 20th century warfare feature multiple day battles as standard
- dispersed formations due to machine guns, smokeless rifles and efficient artillery.
- the ability to command further, through field telegraphs, telephones and wireless. This allows further dispersion of troops and the co-ordination of reserves.

[Jeivar]

I just started wondering about something:

Why do Japanese swords have either those small, disc-shaped crossguards or small squares? Is there some benefit to smaller crossguards?

[AdAstra]

There have been battles over several days throughout history. In the pre gunpowder era they were more common in Asia than in Europe.

Some factors that make a multiple day battle more likely include.
- Very large armies.
- Both sides having favorable defensive ground.
- A reliance on missile weapons over melee.
- Evenly matched opponents (after taking into account technology differences and terrain advantages).

The two big factors that made 20th century warfare feature multiple day battles as standard
- dispersed formations due to machine guns, smokeless rifles and efficient artillery.
- the ability to command further, through field telegraphs, telephones and wireless. This allows further dispersion of troops and the co-ordination of reserves.

I wonder if the existence of more cohesive "frontlines" and supply chains might have also contributed. Retreating can become a lot less strategically sound due to potentially opening up the flanks of the units to your sides, and with continuous delivery of supplies and reinforcements (which also allow depleted units to rotate out, rest, and integrate replacement troops), a military force can sustain fighting for far longer.

[gkathellar]

I just started wondering about something:

Why do Japanese swords have either those small, disc-shaped crossguards or small squares? Is there some benefit to smaller crossguards?

No one really has a good answer. This is not unique to Japanese swords, either, since the Chinese dao and its various relatives have a similar disc guard. That's even more of a mystery, since the dao existed in the same times and places as straight swords with simple cross guards. It's possible that a more active style of parrying, avoiding static blocks, could mitigate the need for hand protection - but static blocks do get used in both Japanese and Chinese swordsmanship, so.

[Jeivar]

No one really has a good answer. This is not unique to Japanese swords, either, since the Chinese dao and its various relatives have a similar disc guard. That's even more of a mystery, since the dao existed in the same times and places as straight swords with simple cross guards. It's possible that a more active style of parrying, avoiding static blocks, could mitigate the need for hand protection - but static blocks do get used in both Japanese and Chinese swordsmanship, so.

So disc guards are demonstrably inferior?

[gkathellar]

So disc guards are demonstrably inferior?

Not necessarily. They were in use for a long time in both military and civilian settings, which suggests they were good for something - or were at least adequate in the context they were expected to perform. But to the best of my knowledge, we don't really know what advantage they provided.

One hypothetical advantage over a cross-guard is that a disc might provide more protection to the sides of the hand. Maybe.