Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 30 of 35 FirstFirst ... 520212223242526272829303132333435 LastLast
Results 871 to 900 of 1043
  1. - Top - End - #871
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Clistenes's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I'm pretty sure that, aside from a small aerodynamic effect, all projectiles lose height at the same rate -- it's only their forward velocity that decreases their vertical fall over horizontal distance traveled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    That one is more or less true. All projectiles released from the same vertical height will take the same amount of time to hit the ground. Mythbusters did an episode on a 9mm bullet that was dropped vs one that was fired. They both take the same time to reach the ground, assuming the fired bullet is completely level to start with. I think the end result of the show was that any differences would be with the margins of error for their setup to actually test things.
    And that's why initial velocity of the projectile matters: A longbow heavy arrow has a velocity under 300 fps or 91 m/s, while a blackpowder musket has a muzzle velocity in between 120 m/s (390 fps) to 370 m/s (1200 fps), meaning that, when the the projectile finally hits the ground, the musket ball has traveled a longer distance...
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2020-01-19 at 04:51 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #872
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I'm pretty sure that, aside from a small aerodynamic effect, all projectiles lose height at the same rate -- it's only their forward velocity that decreases their vertical fall over horizontal distance traveled.
    Well... That depends on what you mean by "small aerodynamic effect".
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2020-01-19 at 07:36 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #873
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Concerning long range fighting, I found this on another forum. You have to scroll down a bit to the long quoted section, mostly in German. Anyway, it's Napoleonic era documentation of effective skirmisher fire between 600 and 1000 paces. I'm actually surprised to see it myself.

    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=522617

  4. - Top - End - #874
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    While shooting (lets assume) 1.000 meters (or yards) is all well and fine, and a great advantage, we must also consider the terrain!

    In large parts of Europe we have very diverse landscapes (hills, threes, small streams with bushes along the beaches, small forests, not to mention houses farms, villages etc). Thus places where an army have a 1.000 meters visibility is not that common. It would have been much worse in let us say 1500-1700 AD. Today modern fields are much larger than early modern ones.

    Even a relatively flat country like Denmark would have few areas like that. Medieval field system even had low dikes/ditches all over the place! There are some moor/heath areas, and here it could be possible. But you really need to search for places where you have a good view of 1.000 meters! Using a view-shed analysis and taking just terrain into account showed that most places I tried a view-shed analysis of less 500 meters.

    Looking at random historic maps (18th century) showed that many fields where less than 100 meters across from one dike to the next. The dikes are typically 0,5-1 in height (today), but enough to duck behind if someone is firing at a defensive position - especially as they may be overgrown with small trees etc.

    Thus range is a advantages, but you must look at it not from a maximum possible range but at realistic ranges. Lets say one side is camped behind a dike and you are behind the other and need to storm across a field of 100 yards, that means that any range over 100 feet is not really important.

    About bows/crossbows and gunpowder weapons: Last year I read an article about a war between Denmark-Sweden (I think it was the one in 1611-13, but it could be one in the late 16th century), where a battle was fought in southern Sweden. They found the battlefield and was surprised at how many cross bolts and arrows they found compared to bullets, especially as large part of the "Danish" army was made up of German mercenaries (thus with modern equipment).

    Two points about this:
    A. It was fought in January or February and it was likely foggy and/or raining. Thus not ideal for gunpowder
    B: Secondly it was fought in a forested area. Thus ranges above 50 meters is not likely. Thus rate of fire is likely to be more important than range.

    So if looking to make bows a viable solution use terrain (shot line of view) and weather (wet/damp) as explanations.

  5. - Top - End - #875
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by redwizard007 View Post
    Exactly how far would one need to shoot for that particular fact to become pertinent? Are we talking 1000 meters? 2000?
    Further to Storm Bringer's comments on the curvature of the Earth, at higher altitudes or shells that travel very long distances/heights, the rotation of the Earth has an effect; this is called the coriolis force. Note that the deflection depends on which direction you're firing in and the hemisphere you're in:
    • Firing north is the opposite of firing south
    • Firing north in the northern hemisphere is the opposite of firing north in the southern hemisphere
    • East/west firing solutions are unaffected by the coriolis force, however the Eotvos effect causes westward shots to hit low and eastward shots to hit high.


    The most famous example is the Paris Gun, used by the Germans to shell Paris during WW1 at a distance of 75 miles miles (120km). From the book Modern Exterior Ballistics (McCoy, Robert [1999]), this fired 210 mm 106kg shells and from 49.5 degrees N towards Paris, there's a drop in range of 393 m and a deflection of 1343 m.

    The same book also has a table for deflections due to Coriolis effect of a 7.62mm Ball M80 Bullet:

    500 yards - .6 inches
    1000 yards - 2.8 in
    1500 yards - 7.6 in
    2000 yards - 15.9 in

    Artillery gunners used to have big firing tables that state the necessary adjustments by bearing before being superseded by computers, although I've found some anecdotal stories from people who have attended artillery control training doing the calculations by ruler and lookup tables. One person who used smaller artillery pieces (<23km range) distinctly remembers a special table on top of all the other ones for an adjustment of earth's rotation as a function of angle, latitude and time of flight, although compared to wind influence, the earth rotation correction wasn't big unless he was shooting at >45 degrees elevation.

    TL:DR - Long range sniping is difficult, which is why DC's Deadshot is a supervillian.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2020-01-20 at 04:36 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #876
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Bringer View Post
    Incidentally, it was this maths that drove the tall "pagoda" tower superstructures of Japanese battleships in the interwar era, as the japs strove to improve their viewpoints and get better, more accurate fire control data. Almost every warship had some form of rangfinder mounted on top of the foremast or forward superstructure.
    It would be wiser to use "Japanese" or "IJN". The abbreviated version you used is generally considered a slur.

  7. - Top - End - #877
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Question: is there any historical basis for the nagateppo/"eggshell grenades"? I know that a lot of info about ninjas is pure fabrication, but on the other hand Japanese did use full-size offensive grenades relatively early in the gunpowder era. If it is a fabrication what are the most likely sources of this invention (i.e. do we see such things in 18th century Japanese plays? in 19th century Orientalist writings? in the early 20th century Japanese samurai flicks?)
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2020-01-22 at 01:52 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #878
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Question: is there any historical basis for the nagateppo/"eggshell grenades"? I know that a lot of info about ninjas is pure fabrication, but on the other hand Japanese did use full-size offensive grenades relatively early in the gunpowder era. If it is a fabrication what are the most likely sources of this invention (i.e. do we see such things in 18th century Japanese plays? in 19th century Orientalist writings? in the early 20th century Japanese samurai flicks?)
    A lot of the ahistorical tropes about ninjas derve from Kabuki theater
    - dressing in black, which the stagehands did, so the ninja attack comes as a surprise to the audience,
    - straight swords - to differentiate them from Samurai

    The eggshell grenade sounds very much like a theater prop to me. Maybe it has an actual historical ancestor, but the common pop culture representation probably derives from theater.
    Last edited by Pauly; 2020-01-23 at 07:41 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #879
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Protecting my Horde (yes, I mean that kind)

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    A lot of the ahistorical tropes about ninjas derove from Kabuki theater
    - dressing in black, which the stagehands did, so the ninja attack comes as a surprise to the audience,
    - straight swords - to differentiate them from Samurai

    The eggshell grenade sounds very much like a theater prop to me. Maybe it has an actual historical ancestor, but the common pop culture representation probably derives from theater.
    An actual grenade for sure is a prop, an egg shell filled with some kind of loose powder as a soft tissue irritant however could work and seems like the kind of thing a spy would be using.

    As for being a real thing? It doesn't look like, even a cursory Google search doesn't find anything. Google Scholar returns no results for nagateppo, or naga-teppo.

    In fact, I'm not even sure the word is proper Japanese. It looks like a compound word from naga and teppo, neither of which have anything to do with grenades or eggs.

  10. - Top - End - #880
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Question: is there any historical basis for the nagateppo/"eggshell grenades"? I know that a lot of info about ninjas is pure fabrication, but on the other hand Japanese did use full-size offensive grenades relatively early in the gunpowder era. If it is a fabrication what are the most likely sources of this invention (i.e. do we see such things in 18th century Japanese plays? in 19th century Orientalist writings? in the early 20th century Japanese samurai flicks?)
    There is a class of grenades known as "frangible grenades" (unfortunately, the United States produced a grenade called "M1 Frangible Grenade", which might make an internet search somewhat frustrating). I'm not aware of any of these grenades dating to the era that you refer to. The idea being that the grenade would break open when it hit a hard surface then "something" would happen. They could be smoke grenades, fire grenades (think molotov cocktail), sometimes poison gas.

    Here's an example of a German one:
    http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerat/index.html

    In the 19th century there was something called a "fire grenade", which was actually intended as a kind of fire extinguisher. It was a salt water filled (later CTC filled) frangible grenade that was supposed to be thrown at the base of a fire, theoretically extinguishing it when the grenade shattered.

    I know that there were much older versions of frangible grenades, used for trying to set fire to enemy ships in boarding conflicts (greek fire). But I can't find specific information on them.

  11. - Top - End - #881
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Clistenes's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    The Spanish Tercios developed a quite fiendish device for nocturnal warfare: they hurled copper spheres filled with burning phosphor to illuminate their enemies and be able to shoot them down... but some of these phosphor spheres had iron case blackpower grenades inside, so their foes were afraid to get close to the copper spheres to put them off, because they could explode at any time...

  12. - Top - End - #882
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    There is a class of grenades known as "frangible grenades" (unfortunately, the United States produced a grenade called "M1 Frangible Grenade", which might make an internet search somewhat frustrating). I'm not aware of any of these grenades dating to the era that you refer to. The idea being that the grenade would break open when it hit a hard surface then "something" would happen. They could be smoke grenades, fire grenades (think molotov cocktail), sometimes poison gas.

    Here's an example of a German one:
    http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerat/index.html

    In the 19th century there was something called a "fire grenade", which was actually intended as a kind of fire extinguisher. It was a salt water filled (later CTC filled) frangible grenade that was supposed to be thrown at the base of a fire, theoretically extinguishing it when the grenade shattered.

    I know that there were much older versions of frangible grenades, used for trying to set fire to enemy ships in boarding conflicts (greek fire). But I can't find specific information on them.
    What's funny is that those firefighting grenades were featured on The Explosion Show this week (on the Science Channel, starring Tory Belleci and some web person I'd never heard of)... and they're somewhere between worthless, and actively bad, for use on fires.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  13. - Top - End - #883
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Something to get us started back up... can't recall if this was posted before...

    Tod's Workshop testing longbow against armor -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE
    Shad's reaction video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQABDS0NmtM

    Also, seriously thinking about basing something for a technophile species/culture on this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXUOwagfqA0
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-02-27 at 01:34 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  14. - Top - End - #884
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mike_G's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Laughing with the sinners
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Something to get us started back up... can't recall if this was posted before...

    Tod's Workshop testing longbow against armor -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE
    Shad's reaction video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQABDS0NmtM

    Also, seriously thinking about basing something for a technophile species/culture on this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXUOwagfqA0
    Loved the Tod's Workshop video.

    He got the closest to accurate bow and armor and arrows I've seen. A lot of tests have so many layers of abstraction, like shooting arrows from an air canon or dropping them on a weighted press and using just a sheet of metal as "armor" or some crappy reproduction breastplate or a 30 pound recurve bow, but trying to fudge it, like "this bow at 30 yards is equivalent to a warbow at 100 yards"

    This test was the closest we're gonna get anytime soon to realistic armor against a realistic bow.
    Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.


  15. - Top - End - #885
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_G View Post
    Loved the Tod's Workshop video.

    He got the closest to accurate bow and armor and arrows I've seen. A lot of tests have so many layers of abstraction, like shooting arrows from an air canon or dropping them on a weighted press and using just a sheet of metal as "armor" or some crappy reproduction breastplate or a 30 pound recurve bow, but trying to fudge it, like "this bow at 30 yards is equivalent to a warbow at 100 yards"

    This test was the closest we're gonna get anytime soon to realistic armor against a realistic bow.
    Between that and the Smithsonian documentary I saw late last year where authentically re-created tempered steel breastplate was resisting firearms from close-ish range with no ill effects beyond a dent (wish I could find it online to link to)... I'm pretty much of the opinion right now that good quality breastplates pretty much forced an opponent to hit you somewhere else.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  16. - Top - End - #886
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Between that and the Smithsonian documentary I saw late last year where authentically re-created tempered steel breastplate was resisting firearms from close-ish range with no ill effects beyond a dent (wish I could find it online to link to)... I'm pretty much of the opinion right now that good quality breastplates pretty much forced an opponent to hit you somewhere else.
    What calibre and of firearm, and pistol or rifle?

    Urg what a typo. Obviously should be "What calibre of firearm, and pistol or rifle?"
    Last edited by halfeye; 2020-02-28 at 12:27 PM.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  17. - Top - End - #887
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Denmark
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    What calibre and of firearm, and pistol or rifle?
    And what type of ammo. According to my sources - which, let's be honest, is mostly RPG rulebooks - you get way better penetration from jacketed ammo than mere lumps of lead.

  18. - Top - End - #888
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    What calibre and of firearm, and pistol or rifle?
    Closer to "pistol or musket?", I assume.
    How breastplate does vs guns is at its most relevant between roughly 1500 and 1700. Large infantry muskets would seem like the most interesting one to test to me, but lighter musket style weapons (for both skirmishers and cavalry, and even mixed in to the main foot formations) and cavalry pistols/dragoons are common on the battlefield as well.

    So yeah, I'm going to be keeping an eye out for Smithsonian documentaries now.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2020-02-28 at 02:08 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #889
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    And what type of ammo. According to my sources - which, let's be honest, is mostly RPG rulebooks - you get way better penetration from jacketed ammo than mere lumps of lead.
    May I inquire which system actually assigns greater penetration to jacketed bullets vs non-jacketed from the same gun? My understanding is that at least in pistol\revolver rounds you wouldn't expect to see significant increase in penetration between modern-style jacketed soft lead and cowboy-style hard cast lead.

    Now, expanding (hollow-point, or soft-point) ammo would of course have less penetration than jacketed bullets - but unjacketed cast bullets do not behave as hollow-points. And going in the other direction hard steel cap or core would increase penetration - - but that's not jacketing either.

  20. - Top - End - #890
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Denmark
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    May I inquire which system actually assigns greater penetration to jacketed bullets vs non-jacketed from the same gun? My understanding is that at least in pistol\revolver rounds you wouldn't expect to see significant increase in penetration between modern-style jacketed soft lead and cowboy-style hard cast lead.

    Now, expanding (hollow-point, or soft-point) ammo would of course have less penetration than jacketed bullets - but unjacketed cast bullets do not behave as hollow-points. And going in the other direction hard steel cap or core would increase penetration - - but that's not jacketing either.
    Are you trying to argue the finer points of ammo terminology with someone who clearly stated his frame of reference as 'RPG rulebooks'?

    Because if so, let's rock. I'm just not sure what you could hope to achieve here??

  21. - Top - End - #891
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    The entire point of copper jacketed bullets is being harder than lead, to avoid the projectile getting abraded by a rifled steel barrel (because lead is indeed soft enough to leave residue clogging up the rifling grooves). A simultaneous, if probably unrelated, development are "pointy" bullets, which may not get a significant increase in penetration against flesh or body armor from their form alone, but are fired at higher velocities and have less airfriction at the same time, leading to substantially higher impact velocities and therefore better penetration.

    Not sure where hunting soft points fit into this... they might be supposed to penetrate better than a mushrooming hollowpoint, but less well than (and thereby transmit more energy into the target creature than) an FMJ by at least flattening the tip.

  22. - Top - End - #892
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    What calibre and of firearm, and pistol or rifle?
    That's one of the reasons I want to find the video, so I can nail down exactly what they were using and at what distance.

    It was longer barreled, and vaguely 50' away, but probably not a 1700s musket. They were definitely using a lead ball, not steel or iron. The ball struck lower right IIRC, and glanced off, leaving a shallow round indentation.

    It was within the last year and it had zero sensationalism so it couldn't have been most of the "science" or "documentary" channels at this point (it's amazing how far down hill the iterations of Discovery Science have gone in the hunt for cheap programming and higher ratings).

    E: Finally found it, not Smithsonian... PBS Nova. All instances of the video I can find are behind regional blocks or paywalls. But the preview/intro does briefly show the firearm used and the distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cWlsbX894 They also discussed the big difference between cheap untempered plate and high-quality tempered steel plate in resisting the heaviest hits.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-02-28 at 07:37 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  23. - Top - End - #893
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bristol, UK

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    That's one of the reasons I want to find the video, so I can nail down exactly what they were using and at what distance.

    It was longer barreled, and vaguely 50' away, but probably not a 1700s musket. They were definitely using a lead ball, not steel or iron. The ball struck lower right IIRC, and glanced off, leaving a shallow round indentation.

    It was within the last year and it had zero sensationalism so it couldn't have been most of the "science" or "documentary" channels at this point (it's amazing how far down hill the iterations of Discovery Science have gone in the hunt for cheap programming and higher ratings).

    E: Finally found it, not Smithsonian... PBS Nova. All instances of the video I can find are behind regional blocks or paywalls. But the preview/intro does briefly show the firearm used and the distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cWlsbX894 They also discussed the big difference between cheap untempered plate and high-quality tempered steel plate in resisting the heaviest hits.
    I back out of Youtube every time they do their "accept our cookies" thing, so I haven't seen the video.

    I am very dubious about personal armour stopping rifle bullets, the 0.303 round would allegedly go through 9 inches of brick wall, and to be proof against small arms tanks needed 12mm of armour plate.

    I would be more or less unsurprised by a 0.22 pistol round bouncing off thick armour, an 0.44 magnum or an 0.45 as used in the "wild west" however has a lot more energy due to the approximately eight times higher mass.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2020-02-28 at 12:40 PM.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  24. - Top - End - #894
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I back out of Youtube every time they do their "accept our cookies" thing, so I haven't seen the video.

    I am very dubious about personal armour stopping rifle bullets, the 0.303 round would allegedly go through 9 inches of brick wall, and to be proof against small arms tanks needed 12mm of armour plate.

    I would be more or less unsurprised by a 0.22 pistol round bouncing off thick armour, an 0.44 magnum or an 0.45 as used in the "wild west" however has a lot more energy due to the approximately eight times higher mass.
    You're thinking much too modern - this is about blackpowder muzzleloaders, and not the newest ones.

  25. - Top - End - #895
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I back out of Youtube every time they do their "accept our cookies" thing, so I haven't seen the video.

    I am very dubious about personal armour stopping rifle bullets, the 0.303 round would allegedly go through 9 inches of brick wall, and to be proof against small arms tanks needed 12mm of armour plate.

    I would be more or less unsurprised by a 0.22 pistol round bouncing off thick armour, an 0.44 magnum or an 0.45 as used in the "wild west" however has a lot more energy due to the approximately eight times higher mass.
    I don't disagree, but what does that have to do with the question at hand?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  26. - Top - End - #896
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I back out of Youtube every time they do their "accept our cookies" thing, so I haven't seen the video.

    I am very dubious about personal armour stopping rifle bullets, the 0.303 round would allegedly go through 9 inches of brick wall, and to be proof against small arms tanks needed 12mm of armour plate.

    I would be more or less unsurprised by a 0.22 pistol round bouncing off thick armour, an 0.44 magnum or an 0.45 as used in the "wild west" however has a lot more energy due to the approximately eight times higher mass.
    The .303 is far too modern for this to be a fair comparison, especially since those numbers are probably for cordite (equivalent to smokeless powder) propellant. The 12mm of steel required from tanks was influenced by the existence of steel-cored armor-piercing rounds and machine guns (even if the armor resists the bullet, if it gets too beat up there's the chance that another one too close will punch through, and there might be a lot of bullets thrown at you). Armor penetration figures also typically assume no slope, which most breastplates incorporated.

    Would a breastplate provide guaranteed protection from repeated dead-on hits by the largest and fastest available projectiles at extremely close range? Probably not, but a good chance at stopping just a single bullet is far better than no chance. Real-world conditions (i.e. volleys of fire at normal combat distances from firearms that were far from perfect) mean there are very few perfect shots, getting repeated hits on the same target is far from a guarantee, and armor does not have to protect against every conceivable threat to be effective.
    Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-02-28 at 03:38 PM.
    The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer

    And here's a rat for the road ~(,,_`;;'>


  27. - Top - End - #897
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Historically, the cuirass worn by cuirassers was expected to stop a pistol ball at close range, and a musket ball at long, with the musket punching through at close range. The gun shown in that PBS intro appeared to be either an arequebus or a later-era light musket, not a proper heavy anti-armor weapon, and the amount of smoke suggests that it might have been underloaded.

  28. - Top - End - #898
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Clistenes's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Historically, the cuirass worn by cuirassers was expected to stop a pistol ball at close range, and a musket ball at long, with the musket punching through at close range. The gun shown in that PBS intro appeared to be either an arequebus or a later-era light musket, not a proper heavy anti-armor weapon, and the amount of smoke suggests that it might have been underloaded.
    Cuirasses were expected to stop pistol and arquebuss balls, not musket balls.

  29. - Top - End - #899
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Related to armour vs guns, albeit from a much later era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour_of_the_Kelly_gang
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  30. - Top - End - #900
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Cuirasses were expected to stop pistol and arquebuss balls, not musket balls.
    They were intended to keep out muskets at long range, but not short. This, of course, refers to the heavy musket of an earlier era, not necessarily the later and lighter. "brown bess" style in use after armor declined furthere.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •