Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII

[Brother Oni]

I'm trying to figure out how many goons I can throw at a character before it becomes completely ridiculous. The scene is that there are a bunch of guys planning to beat up a character that they incorrectly assume is unarmed and handcuffed.

So three part question:

1) How many tough, but untrained and unarmed guys could one well trained guy with a modern combat knife realistically take on?

2) What kind of tactics would someone with a lot of training in hand to hand combat use in such a situation? Do you try to keep everyone at a distance or do you jump one enemy to try to take them out before the rest can intervene?

3) Are there any other weapons that you'd rather have in such a situation than a knife? Assuming that a) you need to be able to hide the weapon on your body and b) you can't bring anything containing gunpowder or other explosives. Would you prefer pepper spray over a knife? How about one of these?

1) Need more detail - are they all together in a small room (eg a prison cell), in a normal living room, open plan office, woods, outdoor urban environment, etc? Does the protagonist have the element of surprise? Is he stalking them or does he square up to the whole group like at the start of an action movie scene? What do you mean by 'well trained'? Military special forces, martial arts with practical fighting experience?

2) This one I know - use the environment and the opponents to make sure you only face one at a time. For example, if two of them are approaching, he would manoeuver around so that the opponent he is fighting, physically blocks the second opponent.
If you have a range advantage (ie a weapon), then use it and stay on your feet - close range wrestling or going to the ground against one guy, just means that his friends dogpile you and start stamping on your head.

3) Depending on the environment and the concealment limitations you've given, I'd want a bigger knife - a machete or similar would be good, if I couldn't get away with an actual short/small sword.
In my opinion, a collapsible baton isn't designed for the fighting you're planning (at least not the UK police ASP I handled) - it's designed for subduing civilians in a riot situation or a self defence weapon. Treat it to the sort of stresses that you'd put it through in a fight (e.g. someone grabs it and you end up wrestling over over) and the cheaper ones will bend or snap. You're also going to need more space since the baton is intended to strike with the tip, which may be an issue in a 8ftx6ft cell.

[Pauly]

I'm trying to figure out how many goons I can throw at a character before it becomes completely ridiculous. The scene is that there are a bunch of guys planning to beat up a character that they incorrectly assume is unarmed and handcuffed.

So three part question:

1) How many tough, but untrained and unarmed guys could one well trained guy with a modern combat knife realistically take on?

2) What kind of tactics would someone with a lot of training in hand to hand combat use in such a situation? Do you try to keep everyone at a distance or do you jump one enemy to try to take them out before the rest can intervene?

3) Are there any other weapons that you'd rather have in such a situation than a knife? Assuming that a) you need to be able to hide the weapon on your body and b) you can't bring anything containing gunpowder or other explosives. Would you prefer pepper spray over a knife? How about one of these?

The largest number of opponents defeated in a 1 -v- many brawl scenario that can be reasonably verified is Lenny McLean who got the nickname “10 man Len” for beating 10 men in a brawl. That’s pitting what was probably the best bare knuckle fighter on the planet at the time against a bunch if goons.

Tactics generally in that situation:
The goons want to surround then rush
The fighter wants to limit getting surrounded. He can:
- use doorways walls etc. to prevent people getting around him
- charge the circle, take out one or two then break through and move to a new position. Rinse and repeat.

An extendable baton is probably a better weapon than a knife. Firstly for the reach advantage. The second one is that tactically it is less lethal. In the presence of a knife the goons are going to be more careful of co-ordinating their surround then rush, and won't risk engaging in tight places like corners or doorways.

[Xuc Xac]

An extendable baton is probably a better weapon than a knife. Firstly for the reach advantage. The second one is that tactically it is less lethal. In the presence of a knife the goons are going to be more careful of co-ordinating their surround then rush, and won't risk engaging in tight places like corners or doorways.

I would rather have the baton because it's more likely to make a goon stop fighting. People can get fatally stabbed right in the chest and not slow down or even notice for several minutes. A lot of murder trials involving stabbing usually try to portray the stabber as unnecessarily vicious because they stabbed the dead person 50 times, which is far more than necessary to kill them. Even (or especially) in self defense cases, this happens because the attacker doesn't stop and fall down dead like in the movies. They keep coming until they pass out from blood loss. A knife wound is easily fatal, but it's not debilitating.

Getting your arm, collarbone, shin, or skull broken by one solid hit from a club will make someone quit fighting even if they are far from dead. Basically in D&D terms, using the knife means hitting one goon dozens of times to hack your way through a big pile of hit points, but using a club means doing 1d6 damage and forcing a morale check to make the goon give up after one hit.

[Silver Swift]

1) Need more detail - are they all together in a small room (eg a prison cell), in a normal living room, open plan office, woods, outdoor urban environment, etc? Does the protagonist have the element of surprise? Is he stalking them or does he square up to the whole group like at the start of an action movie scene? What do you mean by 'well trained'? Military special forces, martial arts with practical fighting experience?

It's pretty much exactly a standard action movie scene. Normal living room, the fighter has the element of surprise in the sense that they expect him to be handcuffed and unarmed, but can't go stalk around to sneak up on them.

He's a special forces type of guy, but has some batman training on top of it.

[Pauly]

It's pretty much exactly a standard action movie scene. Normal living room, the fighter has the element of surprise in the sense that they expect him to be handcuffed and unarmed, but can't go stalk around to sneak up on them.

He's a special forces type of guy, but has some batman training on top of it.

I’d say 6 is the maximum for a relatively realistic fight. The hero takes out 2 in the initial surprise, leaving 4 to deal with once they realize he’s armed. If he can take one out before they can effectively surround and rush him, that leaves him in a 1 -v- 3 fight which is reasonably do-able.

[gkathellar]

It's pretty much exactly a standard action movie scene. Normal living room, the fighter has the element of surprise in the sense that they expect him to be handcuffed and unarmed, but can't go stalk around to sneak up on them.

He's a special forces type of guy, but has some batman training on top of it.

How lethally is he willing to fight (there's a lot to be said for punching someone in the trachea, if you're willing to live with the legal consequences of doing so)? How close is the kitchen and can he break through to it (and by extension, the knives)? What kind of improvised weapons are available (anything from ballpoint pens to mid-sized lamps to chairs)? How likely are the adversaries to use any of those things against him once they realize what's happening?

Getting your arm, collarbone, shin, or skull broken by one solid hit from a club will make someone quit fighting even if they are far from dead.

Having trained with baton in a law enforcement context, I have to say that usually this isn't what happens. Usually your baton bounces off of the opponent's arm or shoulder (potentially leaving them with a nasty welt or bruise, it should be noted) while they get to grappling distance. One of the better martial artists I've met explained it thus: "How many times do you get to hit with the baton? Usually once."

That said!

First of all, if we assume an arbitrary amount of skill, you can absolutely say the baton is going to break a bone with every hit. In that case, you're absolutely right.

Second of all, baton tactics absolutely can be used to deal with multiple opponents, when combined with good use of terrain, distance, and unarmed technique - as illustrated IRL in the video found here.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Im a situation where the fighter is not worried about hurting or killing opponents, because they're baddie bads, some form of a blackjack or sap might be an option (there are many variations of these weapons, so I'm going to describe what I'm thinking of). It's like a regular collapsible baton, but the upper section is flexible (a big metal spring) and the head is a lead weight. They're illegal in a lot more places than regular collapsible batons are and have a reputation as a weapon of hardened criminals. The Dutch name is "ploertendoder", meaning something like ruffian killer. That might have the effect Xuc Xac describes, a regular baton maybe not so much.

But honestly pepper spray or a stun gun/contact taser might be an even better option. It doesn't inspire as much fear in the opponents, but they're generally pretty effective at making someone stop fighting effectively after one hit. And they create less horrible head trauma as a bonus.

[Brother Oni]

I would rather have the baton because it's more likely to make a goon stop fighting. People can get fatally stabbed right in the chest and not slow down or even notice for several minutes. A lot of murder trials involving stabbing usually try to portray the stabber as unnecessarily vicious because they stabbed the dead person 50 times, which is far more than necessary to kill them. Even (or especially) in self defense cases, this happens because the attacker doesn't stop and fall down dead like in the movies. They keep coming until they pass out from blood loss. A knife wound is easily fatal, but it's not debilitating.

A combat knife can slash and cut as well as stab. There's a number of attacks with a knife where you aim to disable your opponent rather than fatally stab (pull/push cuts aimed at the inner bicep near the elbow for example will quite happily disable that attacker's arm, anything near the throat or top of the shoulder near the collar bone, etc).

There's also the 'in and out'* where you drive the tip shallowly into one of the above regions, then push straight out - the tendons/muscles are close to the surface and don't need a deep wound to cause disabling damage.

*I'm not versed in the technical terms of sword fighting, so please substitute the correct term here.

Speaking of batons, do US police forces still issue the side handle baton (ie a tonfa)? That can more than happily withstand the stresses involved.

But honestly pepper spray or a stun gun/contact taser might be an even better option. It doesn't inspire as much fear in the opponents, but they're generally pretty effective at making someone stop fighting effectively after one hit. And they create less horrible head trauma as a bonus.

Unless the protagonist has resistance to pepper spray, expect that to be smeared all over him in very short order in a standard living room with 6 goons.

Stunguns was something I looked into, but I failed to find any information on the number of charges a contact taser had.

[gkathellar]

Speaking of batons, do US police forces still issue the side handle baton (ie a tonfa)? That can more than happily withstand the stresses involved.

There's very little national standardization among U.S. police forces, so it's possible the tonfa is still in use somewhere, but it's fallen out of favor in general (I don't think any major metropolitan department still uses it, although I could be mistaken). My understanding is that it was never particularly well-liked, largely because it was a pain to wear and the design's benefits were esoteric as far as the typical officer was concerned.

[Saint-Just]

Stunguns was something I looked into, but I failed to find any information on the number of charges a contact taser had.

According to my information: practically unlimited. Those without an automatic cutoff can deliver at least 30 seconds of uninterrupted zapping (and that's for a hide-in-your-palm model, larger ones have larger capacities).

[Silver Swift]

You guys are amazing! I would have never considered things like getting your own pepper spray smeared all over you because you got into close combat with the guy you just hit or people not going down after getting stabbed in the chest.

How lethally is he willing to fight?

Pretty lethally, legal consequences are not a concern and morally he's only mildly interested in the fate of the bad guys.

How close is the kitchen and can he break through to it (and by extension, the knives)? What kind of improvised weapons are available (anything from ballpoint pens to mid-sized lamps to chairs)? How likely are the adversaries to use any of those things against him once they realize what's happening?

Is that just out of concern for the bad guys getting a hand on their own weapons? I don't imagine having a kitchen knife helps much if you already have a combat knife.

As for your question, I don't have a layout of the room drawn out, but they can probably get into the kitchen. Are random people likely to consider using improvised weapons in the heat of combat if they've never been in a life or death fight before?

It's like a regular collapsible baton, but the upper section is flexible (a big metal spring) and the head is a lead weight. They're illegal in a lot more places than regular collapsible batons are and have a reputation as a weapon of hardened criminals. The Dutch name is "ploertendoder", meaning something like ruffian killer.

*Googles* Wow, ok that thing looks absolutely miserable to get hit with. Don't you have problems overswinging if you miss, though?

[tyckspoon]

Is that just out of concern for the bad guys getting a hand on their own weapons? I don't imagine having a kitchen knife helps much if you already have a combat knife.

As for your question, I don't have a layout of the room drawn out, but they can probably get into the kitchen. Are random people likely to consider using improvised weapons in the heat of combat if they've never been in a life or death fight before?

Kitchen knives (and kitchens in general, they tend to be full of stuff you can potentially hit people with or throw at them. Consider the possibilities of a rack of pots hanging on a wall) gives your guy a lot of impromptu projectiles, which is handy when you're trying to break up a rush or threaten people enough to make them cautious about charging you. Might also give the attackers some ideas about throwing them back, tho, so that depends on how threatened you want your dude to be? Depend on the layout of the location your hero might want to avoid the kitchen, however, as they can be very confined and hard to escape from spaces - Galley-style kitchens in apartments or home floorplans where the kitchen only connects to one room, for example (good place for a last stand after your dude uses his superior training to take down a few of his opponents, maybe.)

As for grabbing improvised items.. I can't speak to that with any real authority, but I'm pretty sure if you're faced with a potentially lethal weapon then grabbing *something* to equalize that situation is a pretty natural response, especially if it's an item that seems kind of like a weapon itself (a nice sharp chef's knife) or might be able to block or parry the opponent's weapon (steel skillet?)

[Pauly]

When you say ‘goon’ I imagine someone with a fair amount of street brawling experience even if they’ve never been formally trained. In which case as soon as they realize the hero is armed they definitely will be looking to improvise weapons. Kitchen chairs, vases, anything they can get their hands on.

As far as the kitchen is concerned, let’s assume there is a convenient wood block of knives. If the house is from a relatively low socio-economic area then the knives will probably be cheap half tang knives that are pretty flimsy and will have difficulty getting through heavy clothes, such as denim. In a more well off area then you’d be be looking at hammer forged quality knives - Wusthof, Sabatier, Misono something like that. They’ll be better made than almost all combat knives, the lack of a hand-guard being the biggest combat impediment. It’s important to note that kitchen knives, with the exception of the boning knife, are designed for cutting, so while they can stab thet aren’t great at it.
However, speaking as a chef, if I had to grab something for combat out of a knife block, I’d grab the honing steel. It should be longer than the knives, is significantly heavier, it’s more robust and has a small handguard.

[Mr Beer]

An alternative weapon is a tomahawk, combining the cutting ability of a knife with the "smashing" effect of a club. I imagine that it would deliver more devastating blows than either, albeit at the expense of a stab option.

I have no idea which weapon a real hand-to-hand expert would prefer, likely the one they knew best, but I strongly suspect no-one is taking a collapsible baton or pepper spray into a fight to death if they have the option of a combat knife instead.

I also think if the hero is going to get a short window of surprise before the goons understand what is going on, a knife is ideal to deliver several rapid thrusts in succession.

A razor sharp knife with a 7 inch blade can be thrust into non-bony areas of a human with little more effort than a jab - consider how rapidly you could throw a couple of jabs each into a couple of unsuspecting men next to you. It's not unreasonable at all to imagine an expert fighter delivering soon-to-be-lethal stabs into two men in under two seconds in such circumstances. Then he breaks, retreats and circles while they distract the others with horrified screaming, sprays of blood etc.

[Max_Killjoy]

An alternative weapon is a tomahawk, combining the cutting ability of a knife with the "smashing" effect of a club. I imagine that it would deliver more devastating blows than either, albeit at the expense of a stab option.

As an aside, anyone have any thoughts on the modern combat tomahawks?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As an aside, anyone have any thoughts on the modern combat tomahawks?

I figured those would be too big for this discussion, not concealable enough (you can easily hide something that size in a backpack or moderately loose coat, but I got more of a "palmed switch blade" feel from this, hence the club being collapsible.

But if our guy can have more power, more reach and enough sharpy-pointyness I'm sure he'll enjoy that.

Improvised weapon wise a broom handle/pool cue/walking stick is basically a staff, not very lethal maybe but great for creating distance. A coat or somesuch might be a decent flexible weapon, particularly an offhand weapon. It's like a light shield you can throw over your opponents eyes when switching to offense.

Trying to overthink this, there are some weapons made mostly of rope or chain, is any of those a good option?

[Max_Killjoy]

I just meant in general, not specific to that situation.

[Pauly]

I just meant in general, not specific to that situation.

From what I’ve read people engaged in serious fighting would have something in their off-hand for parrying when using a tomahawk, or a similar weapon like a kukri. This could be their rifle, a bowie knife or a buckler depending on the when and where.

[S@tanicoaldo]

So about my favorite fantasy weapon trope...

I just noticed that my favorite looking fantasy swords have this distinct design and I was wondering if it has a name or a utility or if it's just fantasy sword nonsense.

Spoiler

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So does it have a name? Or a utility? It sure makes the sword look cool and distinct without making it look impossible or absurd in my opinion but it may compromise the integrity of the blade?

What you guys think?

[Pauly]

So about my favorite fantasy weapon trope...

I just noticed that my favorite looking fantasy swords have this distinct design and I was wondering if it has a name or a utility or if it's just fantasy sword nonsense.

Spoiler

Show

So does it have a name? Or a utility? It sure makes the sword look cool and distinct without making it look impossible or absurd in my opinion but it may compromise the integrity of the blade?

What you guys think?

The closest historical examples are the “leaf type” blades. Common in bronze swords and in the early iron age. A famous example is the Greek Xiphos. The reason for the shape is generally to assist in cutting - it puts more mass towards the tip and curved blades assist in cutting.

For smaller parrying weapons you had “sword breaker” type daggers where the cutouts in the back of the blade were designed to trap an opponent’s blade.

Looking at the fantasy sword design
- The cutout is so small it will not save any noticeable weight.
- It does nothing to redistribute weight towards the tip to make the blade more “choppy”, Nor would it materially assist in moving the balance closer to the hand to make the blade more nimble and “stabby”.
- it reduces the blade’s cutting capacity for obvious reasons.
- it means stresses are not evenly distributed along the blade, thus making it more prone to breakage.
- it’s too far from the handle to assist with half swording,
- the cutout isn’t aggressive enough to act as a sword catcher to bind an opponent’s weapon.
- it might make the weapon a little longer, but you could achieve the same result much more easily and with a stronger blade simply by hammering the blade fractionally thinner.

In short it does nothing useful whilst significantly reducing the performance of the blade whilst increasing the difficulty of manufacture.

[Xuc Xac]

So about my favorite fantasy weapon trope...

I just noticed that my favorite looking fantasy swords have this distinct design and I was wondering if it has a name or a utility or if it's just fantasy sword nonsense.

It's just fantasy sword nonsense. There's no utility or benefit for that narrow bit near the point and it makes the tip weaker just to look cool. Some swords have a narrow unsharpened section like that near the hilt (called a ricasso), but the blade is thicker there and it's not a structural liability. The utility of an unsharpened ricasso is that it gives you a place where you can safely grab the blade when you need to shorten your grip on a very long sword (such as when you need to guide the point of a two-handed sword into a heavily-armored opponent's unarmored eye or armpit).

[KineticDiplomat]

Although you need to take anything the SEALs say with a heavy dose of salt, supposedly one killed three with a knife before being killed himself.

Regarding combat tomahawks, this is one of those areas where the practical application is as a B&E tool for house entry. If you are carrying a steel forged lightweight tomahawk, it's because you are presumably getting in a real fight in a prepared sort of way. You don't just carry it in your purse or whatever. Which means you proabbly have a rifle or SMG. And if you have a gun, contrary to Hollywood, your best close combat move is shooting the other guy unless you're in a tight grapple, in which case you best move is muzzle stuffing him and then shooting him. Or better yet, have a friend do it.

Frankly, close combat weapons of any type are mostly extreme back up, and so carrying anything larger than a knife is really wasting space and weight unless it has a real purpose.

[Vinyadan]

There's a pretty large book about the linothorax available for free on Project MUSE. I haven't read it, but I think the images have floated around here in the past.

https://muse.jhu.edu/book/22170

"Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery"

[Yora]

Frankly, close combat weapons of any type are mostly extreme back up, and so carrying anything larger than a knife is really wasting space and weight unless it has a real purpose.

Knife fights are never a pretty thing because it's almost impossible to defend against them. I somewhere heard it described as "winning meaning the other guy dies before you do".

[gkathellar]

Knife fights are never a pretty thing because it's almost impossible to defend against them. I somewhere heard it described as "winning meaning the other guy dies before you do".

You can't expect a protracted exchange of blows and ripostes without anybody getting a hit during a knife fight as one sometimes sees during a sword fight, but that's in part because the defensive techniques which can be made effective against knives - grappling and trapping - also usually serve to incapacitate or disarm the opponent when they work. And those techniques, while dangerous and difficult for sure, are not almost impossible.

The longer a knife fight goes on without someone ending it decisively, the more serious the injuries everybody involved are likely to suffer. But that decisive ending can come out of a successful defense.

[Pauly]

You can't expect a protracted exchange of blows and ripostes without anybody getting a hit during a knife fight as one sometimes sees during a sword fight, but that's in part because the defensive techniques which can be made effective against knives - grappling and trapping - also usually serve to incapacitate or disarm the opponent when they work. And those techniques, while dangerous and difficult for sure, are not almost impossible.

The longer a knife fight goes on without someone ending it decisively, the more serious the injuries everybody involved are likely to suffer. But that decisive ending can come out of a successful defense.

There’s a reason why ‘fighting’ knives are often big showy knives like a Bowie knife while knives designed for serious killing such as the Fairbairn-Sykes knife are often smaller and much less showy.

If you get involved in a knife fight a big showy knife is intimidating and may cause the other guy to flee. For example the “that’s not a knife” scene from Crocodile Dundee. Alternatively if people can see your big knife they may be much less willing to start any trouble with you. The best way to win any fight is to win before any blows are exchanged.

I’m not suggesting that a bowie knife is deficient as a combat weapon compared to other knives. More that it’s intimidating appearance is what drives a substantial part of its popularity.

[gkathellar]

There’s a reason why ‘fighting’ knives are often big showy knives like a Bowie knife while knives designed for serious killing such as the Fairbairn-Sykes knife are often smaller and much less showy.

If you get involved in a knife fight a big showy knife is intimidating and may cause the other guy to flee. For example the “that’s not a knife” scene from Crocodile Dundee. Alternatively if people can see your big knife they may be much less willing to start any trouble with you. The best way to win any fight is to win before any blows are exchanged.

I’m not suggesting that a bowie knife is deficient as a combat weapon compared to other knives. More that it’s intimidating appearance is what drives a substantial part of its popularity.

I mostly agree (I think with regards to its popularity the bowie knife also has a lengthy and storied history on its side), although I don't quite understand what this has to do with my assertion. Am I missing something, or did you mean to quote someone else, or ... ?

[Martin Greywolf]

So about my favorite fantasy weapon trope...

I just noticed that my favorite looking fantasy swords have this distinct design and I was wondering if it has a name or a utility or if it's just fantasy sword nonsense.

[snipped image]

So does it have a name? Or a utility? It sure makes the sword look cool and distinct without making it look impossible or absurd in my opinion but it may compromise the integrity of the blade?

What you guys think?

Aha! I can state with confidence that everyone else is wrong, and there is a real design like this that was used in medieval combat. Prepare to be underwhelmed!

Spoiler: Flower of battle by Fiore de'i Liberi, written ~1400, with text

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This other sword is fully sharpened from the hilt all the way to the point, except there is an unsharpened section in the middle about a hand’s width, big enough for a gloved hand to be able to hold it there. Just like the previous sword, this sword should be sharp with a fine point. And the hilt should be strong with a heavy pommel and a sharp well-tempered spike.

This is a sword that was made specifically to rules-lawyer around specifications of what is and is not a sword in judicial duels and other tournament-type one on one fighting in armor. It's not meant for battlefields.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is a sword that was made specifically to rules-lawyer around specifications of what is and is not a sword in judicial duels and other tournament-type one on one fighting in armor. It's not meant for battlefields.

That's amazing. Can you elaborate on the rules and how that sword lawyers them?

[Pauly]

I mostly agree (I think with regards to its popularity the bowie knife also has a lengthy and storied history on its side), although I don't quite understand what this has to do with my assertion. Am I missing something, or did you mean to quote someone else, or ... ?

The connection is that with a ‘fighting knife’ you want a knife that discourages the exchange of blows in the first place. It’s not just the Bowie knife, historically there have been many knives for fighting that seem to be designed, at least in part, to look more intimidating than is functionally necessary. Which fits into the whole “you really don’t want to get into an exchange of blows” part of what you’re saying.

In addition to their size historical examples often had highly visible antler or bone handles with metal endcaps. Also the handguard was often made from brass or was silver plated adding to the highly visible intimidation factor. Stilettos on the other hand which were seen as a weapon of assassination often have plain black handles with an iron handguard.

A knife to be used in a ‘fair fight’ was often designed to be intimidating and I assume that was to discourage the other guy from getting into an exchange of blows. A knife that was to be used to stab someone in the back on the other hand was designed to avoid the exchange of blows because you stabbed the other guy before he realized you had a knife.