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    Default They Killed My Prisoners

    Playerwise I'm in my forties, table is mostly twenty-somethings with some thirtysomethings thrown in. I've got more RP experience than most.

    So I'm a changeling, sorcerer with a courtesan/whore background with the psychic/rakshasa bloodline. I can read minds and cast enchantments silently and have a 20 CHA so it seems I'm a natural face for the party. Bambi is CN at present.

    Half the party was absent when we tackled a goblin holdout, and it didn't go well. We got captured. So next week we're all back together and this time the strong half of the party is present and we kick ass. We drop two of the three goblin bosses, and we're grappling the third, when I decide to try a little CHA based strategy, and call on him to surrender.

    GM had me roll Diplomacy, and said I persuaded him to surrender.

    Party killed him anyway.

    I've alluded to this in the Quotes thread, I played it for laughs saying it was a violation of the Whores Code, but it bothers me for a number of reasons.


    1. My prisoner got killed in front of me, so I feel disrespected.

    2. I don't really believe CN is a long term alignment, it's a knife blade from which you fall or rise. The GM says its a stable alignment but I just have the feeling that my 18 - year -old changeling is either going to go bad or go good as she gets more sneaky powers. We're talking somebody who COULD possibly cast Dominate Person or Death Pact silently and invisibly at a high enough level, and I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises.

    3. We're level 3, I don't have access to the niftier nonviolent ways of making a point like Phantasmal Asphyxiation (force choke in all but name) so I don't have a simple way to, uh, assert myself against a whole party.

    I'd enjoy hearing reactions to the situation. I don't think I'm going to walk away from the party in a LG huff. Am I overthinking this and just need to suck it up and get ruthless?
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYell View Post
    Playerwise I'm in my forties, table is mostly twenty-somethings with some thirtysomethings thrown in. I've got more RP experience than most.

    So I'm a changeling, sorcerer with a courtesan/whore background with the psychic/rakshasa bloodline. I can read minds and cast enchantments silently and have a 20 CHA so it seems I'm a natural face for the party. Bambi is CN at present.

    Half the party was absent when we tackled a goblin holdout, and it didn't go well. We got captured. So next week we're all back together and this time the strong half of the party is present and we kick ass. We drop two of the three goblin bosses, and we're grappling the third, when I decide to try a little CHA based strategy, and call on him to surrender.

    GM had me roll Diplomacy, and said I persuaded him to surrender.

    Party killed him anyway.

    I've alluded to this in the Quotes thread, I played it for laughs saying it was a violation of the Whores Code, but it bothers me for a number of reasons.


    1. My prisoner got killed in front of me, so I feel disrespected.

    2. I don't really believe CN is a long term alignment, it's a knife blade from which you fall or rise. The GM says its a stable alignment but I just have the feeling that my 18 - year -old changeling is either going to go bad or go good as she gets more sneaky powers. We're talking somebody who COULD possibly cast Dominate Person or Death Pact silently and invisibly at a high enough level, and I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises.

    3. We're level 3, I don't have access to the niftier nonviolent ways of making a point like Phantasmal Asphyxiation (force choke in all but name) so I don't have a simple way to, uh, assert myself against a whole party.

    I'd enjoy hearing reactions to the situation. I don't think I'm going to walk away from the party in a LG huff. Am I overthinking this and just need to suck it up and get ruthless?
    I think the first step is an OOC discussion. Explain this stuff to the other players. See if this is going to be a problem IC, or if this is something they're okay with you having your PC assert IC.

    It isn't an "LG huff" to be mad; they took something that was YOURS against your will. Any alignment can justify being mad at that. But before you start asserting your PC in character, discuss this out of character; people have a tendency to take things personally done in character if they aren't prepared for it. You won't get a satisfactory result from just handling this intraparty conflict IC; you need to make sure there isn't too much real-world OOC conflict. Once you're all on the same page OOC, working out how to play it out IC should be pretty easy.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Don't be a 40 year old guy playing a 18 year old nympho. Just don't.
    That hadn't crossed my mind, actually. Ooops. Oh well.

    OVERTLY, I got tired of having a level one class starting close to 30. So I went with a teenager so it would be somebody starting out in life learning everything, basically. And I wanted a changeling's stats for a sorcerer, so it had to be a female. And I was thinking drow background, because I misread a 3rd party option as canon, so how does one go from being a half-drow to the surface world? You get married off as a concubine to an evil wizard, who is slain by Pathfinders, who dump you with a rogues' guild. And you lead a hard life trading your commodity for food.

    So I wasn't MEANING to end up with old fart playing Teen Whore. Not CONSCIOUSLY. Anyway they're not interested in any of those hijinks at table.

    You won't get a satisfactory result from just handling this intraparty conflict IC; you need to make sure there isn't too much real-world OOC conflict. Once you're all on the same page OOC, working out how to play it out IC should be pretty easy.

    That seems wise counsel. I'm not sure they wouldn't kill my character if I got uppity IC. We should get to know each other OOC.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Maybe you are playing the wrong game with the wrong group?

    Are you a deep role player with a charisma based character in a group of murderhobob? Kind of sounds like it.


    If your groups idea of fun is endless crazy violence, and you try and do anything else...you will be disapointed at best.

    Really you will be trying to do some role playing charisma based something.....and the rest of the group will just be ''HULK Smash! KILL KILL KILL!"

    Your character stopped that goblin....so of course their reaction was "KILL IT!" What else would it be?

    So this really is not the group or game to role play your changeling, sorcerer with a courtesan/whore background with the psychic/rakshasa bloodline fantasy character.

    If you do stay with the character, you will stick out and won't fit in....at best. And at worse....well, you won't have a good time.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    I have only two comments.

    This is a discussion you should be having with your group - not with this forum.

    And if you feel like playing something sexually apart from yourself - by all means, do so. You are not a sorcerer in real life, any more than you are an 18 year old female. But if you want to play a sexually charged character, do so in a game designed for it, with people who play entered knowing that would be the deal. I spent an entire campaign once playing a honey trap corporate agent, and it was a lot of fun - but it wouldn't have worked, or been particularly seemly, if the rest of the group hadn't been onboard with it.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    If you do stay with the character, you will stick out and won't fit in....at best. And at worse....well, you won't have a good time.
    I'll try it and see. You may be right.

    This is a discussion you should be having with your group - not with this forum.
    I tend to think opening my mouth in group is the final chapter, I'm glad to hear how I go into it.

    But if you want to play a sexually charged character, do so in a game designed for it, with people who play entered knowing that would be the deal.
    Sound advice. I didnt see her as being promiscuous, just distrustful, godless, friendless, greedy and capricious. The closest we've come was my asking to earn gold as a courtesan at an inn, and being told the mechanic required 7 days work and we weren't staying that long in town. They weren't really amused. We've had more fun with her as a spoiled brat. I'm not going to abuse her powers for dalliances.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    From what TheYell has told us, I think harping on the "she's a sexy harlot" angle is not helpful. It doesn't seem to be causing tensions he's aware of at the table; the problem is unrelated. Let's not give unsolicited advice that could cause trouble that isn't there.

    As to the actual problem, yes, the solution starts with talking to the other players about it and why it bothers TheYell that they did that, and how to handle such things in the future. The IC solution might well be more...aggressive...on her part, but should be agreed-upon by the group before it's executed. They may prefer to have a calm, rational IC discussion where their characters agree on the basis of how important it is to their fellow party member, or they may prefer to have the sorceress assert herself with power and magic and thus convince their PCs to curb things.

    If they are not willing, OOC, to have those behaviors change, then the problem runs deeper, and won't be solved IC without rancor OOC. The negotiation over what the players want out of the game will have to continue until an agreement can be reached.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Inchhighguy View Post
    Maybe you are playing the wrong game with the wrong group?

    Are you a deep role player with a charisma based character in a group of murderhobob? Kind of sounds like it.
    That's way extreme. You can't infer party mindset from a single incident. My party arenot murderhobos, yet we faced the prisoner dilemma many times, and sometimes we went for the kill.

    On the other hand, you can't discount the chance that they are murderhobos. So, you should talk to them about expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    I have only two comments.

    This is a discussion you should be having with your group - not with this forum.

    But if you want to play a sexually charged character, do so in a game designed for it, with people who play entered knowing that would be the deal.
    1) he should definitely have the discussion with the group, that doesn't mean he can't take some wisdom from the forum.

    2) why jumping to wrong conclusions immediately after reading the background? I know there are people who use roleplaying to indulge in sexual fantasy, and that some have become especially wary of those at tables. But on a forum, do give the benefit of doubt.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    2) why jumping to wrong conclusions immediately after reading the background? I know there are people who use roleplaying to indulge in sexual fantasy, and that some have become especially wary of those at tables. But on a forum, do give the benefit of doubt.
    To reiterate and emphasize: Especially when this has nothing to do with the problem being raised.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Just had our session. The most gungho violent guys didn't make it this week, so I didn't say anything before we started.

    The GM said as we started that the party had been attacking the goblin as we left off, but had not delivered the final blow. Four of those present voted to kill my prisoner. I was the only vote to keep it alive, since it surrendered to me.

    They let it live! So we marched it into town and handed it over to the guards. I guess there really isn't a conflict about my taking prisoners.


    We got joined with a cleric of Sarenrae who is playing a righteous warrior, and I'm having fun being an atheist foil (for now).


    So it looks like there is presently no argument about my moral choices and I have the ability to roleplay a skeptical sorcerer who might get redeemed.


    Thanks for your advice
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Glad it worked out!

    I assume you mean "doesn't think the gods are worthy of worship" when you say "atheist" more than "doesn't believe there are gods." I mean, that's almost like refusing to believe there are kings in a setting like Golarion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I assume you mean "doesn't think the gods are worthy of worship" when you say "atheist" more than "doesn't believe there are gods." I mean, that's almost like refusing to believe there are kings in a setting like Golarion.
    Pretty much. She is surprised when the paladin and cleric can heal, because she doesn't think the gods really care or are benevolent like portrayed. So that's one way we can influence her character going forwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I assume you mean "doesn't think the gods are worthy of worship" when you say "atheist" more than "doesn't believe there are gods." I mean, that's almost like refusing to believe there are kings in a setting like Golarion.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYell View Post
    2. I don't really believe CN is a long term alignment, it's a knife blade from which you fall or rise. The GM says its a stable alignment but I just have the feeling that my 18 - year -old changeling is either going to go bad or go good as she gets more sneaky powers. We're talking somebody who COULD possibly cast Dominate Person or Death Pact silently and invisibly at a high enough level, and I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises.
    So, you seem to have a plan that this character will "fall or rise", and far be it from me to influence your agency with your character. but I would like to point out, just for some extra info for you, that CN can, indeed be a stable alignment.

    I'm going to spoiler block it here for space, so only anyone who cares ends up reading it, but here's one of my favorite examples of a CN character that I've played:
    Spoiler
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    Clain Windsong is a Chaotic Neutral Elf Bard. His goal is to be a part of, and then tell the tale of, the most amazing and epic ballad that will last through the ages, immortalizing him in song forever as the author. Now, people generally prefer stories of good guys and heroism, saving the day and all that. So Clain actually prefers to adventure with Good people. He'll be the first one to volunteer the party to save the damsel, or slay the monster terrorizing innocent folk. But not because he cares about anyone. Because he's in it for the fame, for the glory.
    Oh, the town in saved, and they're asking the group to help rebuild the church? Not as interesting (unless there's a really attractive priestess he's trying to impress). But gnolls threatening innocent farmsteads? Oh yeah, we're your guys, mighty heroes...let me just stock up on parchment and ink...
    Clain's something of a rake, as well. He loves his freedom, likes to do what he pleases. But he has something of a weakness for the fairer sex. And for some bizarre reason, he's unusually fertile for an elf. He knows full well that he's got illegitimate half-elf children all across the land, and he does not care. "No one writes epic ballads about responsible fathers who stayed at home, rearing children", he would say.
    Completely Chaotic, and absolutely Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and never likely to change his ways. Not at all disruptive as an alignment, either, to be in a group of Good/Neutral heroes. He's not "non-Good" because he somehow walks some kind of line between Good and Evil, but rather because he's kind of a selfish d-bag. He'll absolutely sacrifice for his friends, and he likes being a part of doing heroic, "Good" deeds, but in the end, he does it for himself, for the fame.

    As an aside, all of my characters I've ever played end up as higher-level NPCs in my world. I also use the old 2e elven lifespans (900-1000 years), so in my world, as an NPC, Clain is just cresting middle age for an elf (about 500 ish). And if you count all his children, and all his [great-great-great-] grandchildren, he's personally responsible for nearly 4% of the half-elves in my world. He's literally got descendants who haven't even got a clue they're related to him.


    That's it. Just wanted to give you an example to highlight that CN is a stable alignment. This is not at all meant to influence how you play your character, I just like to pontificate about some of my own stuff.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    That's it. Just wanted to give you an example to highlight that CN is a stable alignment. This is not at all meant to influence how you play your character, I just like to pontificate about some of my own stuff.
    That is an interesting character. I like how you can still cooperate despite selfish motives. I better think more on what Bambi wants, and then, what game mechanics support that.

    I'm one of those gamers who likes to plan ahead for what comes. I know there are some people really opposed to that tactic, but in my particular case, I don't think on the spot very well and would make a hash of impromptu design.

    The GM has made comments about not being generous with coin, so Wealth as a goal seems out. Dunno if she wants Glory. I'm thinking from the present brouhaha with the prisoner that she wants a sense of Honor. We have some samurai in the party so she can observe those exemplars.

    Now how a psychic rakshasa crossblooded sorcerer acts with Honor, is going to be a challenge!
    Spoiler
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    I think she'll proceed by making bargains and contracts. So for instance, an enemy who spares you the effort of slaughtering it by surrendering is to be spared, because that's the bargain. With the right powers she'll Suggest such a bargain to the enemy, and stick to it. And she'll choose Death Pact instead of Dominate Person, because the target can refuse to serve and take the damage instead.

    She'll employ insidious powers to influence these bargains, because that's her nature, but I think I'll have her respect anybody who can overcome these powers. What exactly that will mean I will have to consider. She may refuse to continue attacking such a one and offer a truce. The other side of that is that she will be absolutely ruthless towards active combatants. She'll get Explode Head when the time comes.

    Also, she'll refuse to argue about money. She won't haggle and will let others propose the disposition of treasure. She enjoys a rich lifestyle but won't allow herself to be dragged down to squabbling about it.
    Last edited by TheYell; 2019-06-06 at 11:11 PM.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    FWIW my characters kill prisoners like this all the time. OOC it's because dealing with prisoners is a huge pain in the ass. IC it's because it's usually more expedient than dragging them back to town (if that's even possible), turning them over to the authorities, then watching them get killed anyway. Both my evil and neutral PCs do this regularly for different reasons.

    It's not a slight on anybody trying to take prisoners (and usually my character is the one that Bluffs the gullible ones into surrendering and letting themselves be tied up into neat little CdG-able packages in the first place), but there's no faster way to bring a session screeching to a grinding halt for the next hour and a half than "So we've taken a prisoner. now what?".

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    yes it could be a burden, I should discuss more with the party about offering surrender.

    I guess the bone of contention could be, when should it be offered in the first place? Because once it's offered and accepted, it should be honored. If that's my attitude I shouldn't presume to offer it in the first place without some framework of agreement. Such as, the last of a group of bosses in a dungeon, which was the case in this fight with the goblins.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYell View Post
    Playerwise I'm in my forties, table is mostly twenty-somethings with some thirtysomethings thrown in. I've got more RP experience than most.

    So I'm a changeling, sorcerer with a courtesan/whore background with the psychic/rakshasa bloodline. I can read minds and cast enchantments silently and have a 20 CHA so it seems I'm a natural face for the party. Bambi is CN at present.

    Half the party was absent when we tackled a goblin holdout, and it didn't go well. We got captured. So next week we're all back together and this time the strong half of the party is present and we kick ass. We drop two of the three goblin bosses, and we're grappling the third, when I decide to try a little CHA based strategy, and call on him to surrender.

    GM had me roll Diplomacy, and said I persuaded him to surrender.

    Party killed him anyway.

    I've alluded to this in the Quotes thread, I played it for laughs saying it was a violation of the Whores Code, but it bothers me for a number of reasons.


    1. My prisoner got killed in front of me, so I feel disrespected.

    2. I don't really believe CN is a long term alignment, it's a knife blade from which you fall or rise. The GM says its a stable alignment but I just have the feeling that my 18 - year -old changeling is either going to go bad or go good as she gets more sneaky powers. We're talking somebody who COULD possibly cast Dominate Person or Death Pact silently and invisibly at a high enough level, and I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises.

    3. We're level 3, I don't have access to the niftier nonviolent ways of making a point like Phantasmal Asphyxiation (force choke in all but name) so I don't have a simple way to, uh, assert myself against a whole party.

    I'd enjoy hearing reactions to the situation. I don't think I'm going to walk away from the party in a LG huff. Am I overthinking this and just need to suck it up and get ruthless?
    1-That's probably the biggest part of this you may want to explore/address with the party OOC. It's not cool when you're doing what your character is designed to do and it's all for naught.

    2a-If that's what you believe (CN not being a long term alignment), cool. I just ask is that an overall belief, or just where you see this character going?

    2b-"I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises"--You feel that way, or your character feels that way? It's taken me a long time to learn that I'm subconsciously trying to play myself through a different lens, and I've had the most fun separating myself from the character I play. If that's where you see your character going, that's cool; it's more of a backstory and adds more than just your standard leveling up when there's an honest alignment change.

    3-Trying to assert one's self against an entire party is a great way to get "asked" to find another group, especially if you try to return the disrespect you felt you got earlier.

    As far as sucking it up and getting ruthless, what are the alignments of the rest of the party? If they're mostly good and they killed someone who surrendered, the DM is missing a great opportunity to deal with them about it...a cleric doesn't get access to spells until they do an atonement, etc. If it's an evil group, I can see your character making the turn and using those things to set up the party members for more fun. Is ruthless the way you want to go, or the way you feel you have to go because of the party?

    As an added bonus, I personally think CN is the supreme selfish alignment. People who are tired of being betrayed or let down by "humanity" or elvenkind or dwarfenkind and are just going to do what they want to do and take care of #1, they're CN in a nutshell.

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    2a-If that's what you believe (CN not being a long term alignment), cool. I just ask is that an overall belief, or just where you see this character going?
    Tended to be my overall belief but that's evolving with some of the responses here.

    2b-"I feel like I want to be another kind of person when that opportunity arises"--You feel that way, or your character feels that way?
    Yeah -I- feel that way about the character. I really don't want play her as evil, I think, and I do think we've got enough good in the party to avoid developing in an evil direction.

    It's a game store party, alignment is all north of evil but all over the map.

    the paladin of Torag was keen to kill my prisoner, on the grounds that it had been torturing him minutes before our riot broke out and I called on it to surrender in mid-grapple with the paladin. The GM ruled that as a paladin of a war deity it was not an alignment issue to continue fighting in that situation. He was absent last week so we'll have to tell him it didn't happen. The paladin's point was that as the sole attacker of this goblin --they were at the rear of the dungeon, the party had to fight to reach them--, he was engaged in a type of duel, so I probably intruded to ask for a surrender.

    I'm going to have to make some speeches next session :) first of all because we're about to skip a level by exploring a cave, need to switch destinations to avoid that.* But also to ask under what situations its appropriate for Bambi to use her Charisma to push for a surrender, because I'm capable of it, the GM allows it, and if it happens I tend to want it respected by the whole party. I think, I need to respect whatever they come up with as a party, because I'm really calling on them to honor it.

    *we skipped a level already and I can read the hints the GM threw at us to avoid it last time, its happening again I see


    since I'm not leading the party I'll suggest waiting to offer a surrender until called on by the martials who would probably be the killers of our enemies anyhow, let them propose it because then its them holding back
    Last edited by TheYell; 2019-06-09 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYell View Post
    It's a game store party, alignment is all north of evil but all over the map.

    the paladin of Torag was keen to kill my prisoner, on the grounds that it had been torturing him minutes before our riot broke out and I called on it to surrender in mid-grapple with the paladin. The GM ruled that as a paladin of a war deity it was not an alignment issue to continue fighting in that situation. He was absent last week so we'll have to tell him it didn't happen. The paladin's point was that as the sole attacker of this goblin --they were at the rear of the dungeon, the party had to fight to reach them--, he was engaged in a type of duel, so I probably intruded to ask for a surrender.
    TBF Paladins of Torag are ****ing hardcore, and it's astounding the things they're allowed to do within their Code that allows them to stay Lawful Good. In this particular situation, your Paladin was not only encouraged, but arguably REQUIRED to act the way he did.

    The Paladin Code for Torag, for posterity, relevant clause bolded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Code
    Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.

    • My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
    • I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
    • I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
    • Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TheYell's Avatar

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    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants.
    Wow, we just selected Torag as a LG option in Core Rulebook. Didn't read the Code.

    He'll be greatly pleased, and I'll have to swallow my offers of surrender when he's present
    Empyreal Lord of the Elysian Realm of Well-Intentioned Fail

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    It's not a core rule, so just looking at the CRB you wouldn't get it. It's an optional rule from another book...Champions of Purity I think? He was just playing so much to type I assumed it was what he was using. =)

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Jul 2018

    Default Re: They Killed My Prisoners

    Engaged in a type of duel? If it wasn't officially called, all's fair game, but I guess it's fair game for him to kill your prisoner too. The only thing that might be worth bringing up that strategy would've warranted a surrender.

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