OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[Rrmcklin]

I remember a lot of people thinking that Durkon would go to Hel when Hilgya killed him, because he died on one knee instead of fighting. But he went back to Thor. So apparently what mattered was that someone else killed him. Similarly, Rich said a politician who was assassinated would be treated as having died honorably.

It would probably be more accurate to say that dwarven culture treats it as dishonorable to die of disease, accident, or old age. Which is still plenty messed up.

If I'm remembering correctly, the Giant has said something to the effect, using Haley as an example something like "Haley wouldn't go to Hel if she died of a disease, because she wouldn't believe that to be dishonorable."

[hamishspence]

If I'm remembering correctly, the Giant has said something to the effect, using Haley as an example something like "Haley wouldn't go to Hel if she died of a disease, because she wouldn't believe that to be dishonorable."

You do remember correctly:

A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

[Canisius]

Somehow I expect Kandro to not actually be dead and cut his way out of the Nightcrawler.

Who's with me on that?

That was a pretty serious-looking chomp he got before he went down the hatch...

[Wizard_Lizard]

That was a pretty serious-looking chomp he got before he went down the hatch...

Yep he very dead.

[Canisius]

I do like how "mysterious horn-helmed powerful dwarf" is one of the first ones in behind Durkon. Since he doesn't have a name, I doubt he'll last long. I'd like to learn more about him, but then, I've rolled awesome toons that were immediately cut down, so, bon chance, mysterious horn-helmed powerful dwarf.

[Worldsong]

Yep he very dead.

He very dead and I'm sure he's happier that way.

[Ruck]

The second is interpretation, the first one not.
A dwarf needs to die with honor to get into paradise. With honor means in a fight or from alcohol.This is not my interpretation. We even see them in dwarf heaven.
So is your point that Dwarven belief is wrong and they could all enter Walhalla without fighting or alcohol?

That isn't what you said. You said this:

Now here comes this author who brings up a fantasy race that believes in the concept - and is supposed to be RIGHT about doing so.

Which I think is best answered by this:

The whole point of the honorable death system is that it's ridiculous and arbitrary. It's definitely making fun of the concept. I don't see why people are looking for it to be logical or fair when the whole point is that it's not.

And this:

The message of OOTS with respect to Valhalla is not that it's right or wrong to seek an honorable death when your eternal-ish soul is at stake. It's that it's wrong for the gods to force this tragic choice upon the dwarves.

And this:

Show me the comic strip where the Giant clearly conveys the authorial intent that the dwarves are right in their decision, that is, that the dwarves are morally correct to form a cult of honor and death by combat, or whatever. Show me where the Giant passes a moral judgment on his characters, within the confines of the strip, for doing so.

I’ll wait.

At best, the dwarves are “right” (ie, correct) that the facts of their world dictate either dying with honor or being tortured by Hel, or however you want to frame that dichotomy. It is a feature of the world they live in and they are correct in behaving as if it is.

But did the Giant use the comic to make the point that the dwarves are right, in a moral sense, for responding as they do to the conditions of their world? Has this ever been a major theme?

Actually, it has not. In fact, the theme is

Dwarves are different. The POV characters remark upon it. Roy says Durkon is strange. Even Durkula doesn’t get it.

So yeah, show me where this theme is. I’d be curious to see which strip I’m forgetting.

[Wizard_Lizard]

If I'm remembering correctly, the Giant has said something to the effect, using Haley as an example something like "Haley wouldn't go to Hel if she died of a disease, because she wouldn't believe that to be dishonorable."

But what if a dwarf thought that disease was not a dishonourable death?

[Fyraltari]

But what if a dwarf thought that disease was not a dishonourable death?

They’d be ****ed. It matters what Haley thinks because humans are not subject to the bet.

[Jannoire]

I remember a lot of people thinking that Durkon would go to Hel when Hilgya killed him, because he died on one knee instead of fighting. But he went back to Thor. So apparently what mattered was that someone else killed him.

But he didn't go to Valhalla. He was back on the clouds, which was most probably the p place to wait to be judged.

[Fyraltari]

But he didn't go to Valhalla. He was back on the clouds, which was most probably the p place to wait to be judged.

Both cases of dispute we’ve seen took place in Hel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But he didn't go to Valhalla. He was back on the clouds, which was most probably the p place to wait to be judged.

Dwarves still are judged to determine which plane they belong to, just as Roy was. But that requires them to have died with enough honour to not be taken by Hel before they get judged. Although it does feel like clerics might get an instant free pass to their god's residence, given that Minrah was pre-cleared for Valhalla.

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

Dwarves still are judged to determine which plane they belong to, just as Roy was. But that requires them to have died with enough honour to not be taken by Hel before they get judged. Although it does feel like clerics might get an instant free pass to their god's residence, given that Minrah was pre-cleared for Valhalla.

Grey Wolf

She went down fighting and technically got killed by a cleric of Loki.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She went down fighting and technically got killed by a cleric of Loki.

All of which means she avoids Hel. Not that she belongs in Valhalla - maybe she'd fit better in the mountain, having infinite one-night stands but feeling guilty about it, like Roy was judged to.

But she didn't get a Deva judgment, despite her being (presumably) LG, and I'm fairly convinced Thor is CG, and so is Valhalla, so the rules about accessing the afterlife matching your alignment are not being applied here. Now, most likely it is because there is no plot-reason to waste our time with it, but, as I said, maybe clerics are automatically shunted to their god's place regardless of alignment instead (this, however, does not explain why Thor's example dwarf ended up playing cards with him, though - she's unlikely to have been a cleric).

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

I imagine that good dwarves could technically be sent somewhere else than Valhalla, but no one really bothers doing so. Dwarves expect to go there, and who is Thor to say they can't go as long as they're good?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I imagine that good dwarves could technically be sent somewhere else than Valhalla, but no one really bothers doing so. Dwarves expect to go there, and who is Thor to say they can't go as long as they're good?

Thor is not in charge of the Universe. The Universe is in charge of the Universe. As the Deva explained to Roy, in the LG plane they do things by the Book, which is 100 feet tall and alight with holy fire. Thor is no more in a position to override The Book than he can override any of the other rules of how the Universe ticks along. Souls are crucial for the working of the plane and thus the gods, so poaching souls that belong elsewhere would be a major no-no.

ETA: Again, this is all based on Durkon's exposition. Dwarves still get sent to the plane that matches their alignment, if they pass Hel's gauntlet.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Wait isn’t the rules that religious people go their god’s domain in death? In any case, I expected the bariaur at the end of the rainbow to conduct Minrah’s evaluation.

Edit: Minrah was ‘pre-cleared’ whatever that means.

[Resileaf]

Thor is not in charge of the Universe. The Universe is in charge of the Universe. As the Deva explained to Roy, in the LG plane they do things by the Book, which is 10 feet tall and alight with holy fire. Thor is no more in a position to override The Book than he can override any of the other rules of how the Universe ticks along. Souls are crucial for the working of the plane and thus the gods, so poaching souls that belong elsewhere would be a major no-no.

ETA: Again, this is all based on Durkon's exposition. Dwarves still get sent to the plane that matches their alignment, if they pass Hel's gauntlet.

Grey Wolf

Sure, it does things by the book because it's the LG realm. Valhalla is the CG realm, and therefore would be more lax. And the deva was pretty clear to Roy that she can bump him to any other realm and they'll decide if they want him or not.

Because honestly, Durkon is as LG as it gets, and do you really think he doesn't expect to enter Valhalla?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait isn’t the rules that religious people go their god’s domain in death?

Not explicitly so, no, at least to the best of my recollection.

In any case, I expected the bariaur at the end of the rainbow to conduct Minrah’s evaluation.

I suppose it could be that clerics get "first judged" at their god's abode, while non-clerics are judged by a generic Deva-equivalent from their self-professed alignment plane.

But on the other hand, clerics do sorta get judged on a daily basis - they can lose their clerical powers if they stray from their god's teaching, can't they not? So it makes sense that they require a lot less paperwork at death, since they've been regularly audited in life.

Sure, it does things by the book because it's the LG realm. Valhalla is the CG realm, and therefore would be more lax. And the deva was pretty clear to Roy that she can bump him to any other realm and they'll decide if they want him or not.

Yes, but again: the rules, as have been given to us, is that you get judged regardless of how obvious your final destination is. You start at the plane matching your professed alignment (i.e. LG for Durkon and Minrah), where a judgement of some kind us used to determine if you do in fact fit there, and get let in or shunted to the more appropriate one. Which did NOT happen here - Durkon and Minrah are not in the LG clouds, as far as we can tell.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Yes, but again: the rules, as have been given to us, is that you get judged regardless of how obvious your final destination is. You start at the plane matching your professed alignment (i.e. LG for Durkon and Minrah), where a judgement of some kind us used to determine if you do in fact fit there, and get let in or shunted to the more appropriate one. Which did NOT happen here - Durkon and Minrah are not in the LG clouds, as far as we can tell.

Grey Wolf

And Thor outright said that Minrah was pre-cleared to enter Valhalla, no judging necessary, so I think that indicates that Valhalla is more lax about those rules, or that Thor can decide to let people in despite those rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And Thor outright said that Minrah was pre-cleared to enter Valhalla, no judging necessary, so I think that indicates that Valhalla is more lax about those rules, or that Thor can decide to let people in despite those rules.

None of which explains why Minrah, an LG individual, is not in the LG section getting judged as per the LG rules.

Seriously, do try to address my point instead of repeating "CG is different". I can accept CG is different. But Minrah is not CG, she's LG, and thus the rules for LG should be applying.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

According to Complete Divine, devoted followers of a deity can bend the standard rules when it comes to appropriate afterlife plane.

So - a plurality of orcs are CE - but because their main deity resides in the LN(LE) plane Acheron, those who are devoted to the deity, go to Acheron, regardless of the fact that by alignment, they don't really belong there.

Similar principles may apply to Durkon and Minrah - by being devoted to Thor who resides in Valhalla, they get in, even though they're LG and Valhalla is (assuming it's The Giant's version of Ysgard) CN(CG).

[Resileaf]

None of which explains why Minrah, an LG individual, is not in the LG section getting judged as per the LG rules.

Seriously, do try to address my point instead of repeating "CG is different". I can accept CG is different. But Minrah is not CG, she's LG, and thus the rules for LG should be applying.

Grey Wolf

If the LG rules applied, why would she be in Valhalla? Wouldn't she be sent to the mountain? I'm not sure I understand your point.

[Peelee]

My theory is that souls don't go to the afterlife of their professed alignment for the first crack, they go to the afterlife they wanted. Which means LG dwarves would go to CG Valhalla first.

[Worldsong]

My theory is that souls don't go to the afterlife of their professed alignment for the first crack, they go to the afterlife they wanted. Which means LG dwarves would go to CG Valhalla first.

That you first go to the afterlife you want to go to makes sense to me. I guess what's confusing here is that because of the Bet dwarves end up with a strong inclination towards lawfulness even if their preferred afterlife is Valhalla.

On the other hand their main 'law' is honour, so it's not like they'd wander about inside Valhalla complaining that people aren't using the right forks for their salad. If there's even salad in Valhalla. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a fair amount of dwarves who, the moment they're told that they've passed the honour test and are safe from Hel's grasp, immedaitely loosen up.

[brian 333]

We seem to be forgetting that Roy doesn't worship a deity. He went to his afterlife based on his alignment. Those who do worship a deity would go to their deity to be judged worthy or not.

[hroþila]

My theory is that everyone goes first to wherever they think they belong. Dwarves who believe in the honour system think they belong in either Valhalla or [Niflheim?], so that's where they go first. Some dwarves think they died dishonourably, but Thor disagreed and went there to fetch them. Dwarves who don't believe in the honour system (assuming we can use a plural there) might go to a different place first, only for Hel to show up and claim what's hers. Roy and Eugene think they belong in Celestia, so that's where they are when they die. And then, the actual alignment is determined. For dwarves feating in Valhalla, that might take a long while, which doesn't seem to be a problem because there's no timetables that we have seen.

Durkon does speak of Valhalla as an eternal reward, but that can't be literally true so I don't think it's necessarily an insurmountable problem here.

[Dion]

And Thor outright said that Minrah was pre-cleared to enter Valhalla, no judging necessary, so I think that indicates that Valhalla is more lax about those rules, or that Thor can decide to let people in despite those rules.

Or maybe there’s a pre-judging system.

And if LG people are going to something called Valhalla, maybe the afterlife called Valhalla is LG.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As the Deva explained to Roy, in the LG plane they do things by the Book, which is 10 feet tall and alight with holy fire.

Grey Wolf

100 Feet Tall. And on fire. Which is why none of those dead adventurers have stolen it for loot yet.

[Riftwolf]

If I'm remembering correctly, the Giant has said something to the effect, using Haley as an example something like "Haley wouldn't go to Hel if she died of a disease, because she wouldn't believe that to be dishonorable."

Correct me if I'm wrong but that comment was made before we knew about Hels wager. It could've been Rich playing his cards close to his chest about later plot reveals rather than saying 'this'll be covered in later books' and sparking fifty odd pages of speculation.