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2019-09-04, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Yeah, except, in The Oracle's case, other characters actually do note his actions as unusual, suggesting it's meant to be taken literally. Plus, you didn't answer my other questions: he knew Belkar's death and his own death, down to the year, and, in the latter case, minute. He can clearly see without needing a trance: He just needs to check.
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2019-09-04, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I’ll keep a note that this is your personal headcannon. The actual powers of the oracle seem to disagree, however. He claims to be able to actually read the comic before it’s printed, and to be able to actually see the artwork.
But all this discussion is beyond my capacity to understand regardless. Apparently we have moved on to discussing different “amounts” of omniscience; perhaps there are different cardinalities of infinite power, like Aleph Null Omniscience, Aleph One Omniscience, etc.
Cardinality of infinite power is not something I can comfortably imagine, so perhaps it’s time I left the thread.Last edited by Dion; 2019-09-04 at 01:36 PM.
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2019-09-04, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
He had also run into the Order before, so he had plenty of time to do some due diligence on a group who he might encounter later. Omniscience not required.
Powerful diviniation magic? Sure, that's required.
Also, in the future, please be advised that I am not required to "answer your other question."
I suggest you not try to badger me.
I find it rude.
@Dion: no, not head canon.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:27 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-04, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
No. He hasn't. He said some of that in his first appearance. He mentioned Belkar's forthcoming death within seconds of meeting him. And i'm not implying he's omniscient, per say. He has theoretically limitless knowledge, but he needs to check forward, like Google: he can get any knowledge, no trance required, but he needs to send a search quarry, and he usually doesn't bother, because, you know, lazy. And he obviously didn't know the Order were coming, since he got interrupted. As for your other point, that was a counter-argument. You kinda need to answer it, or you're conceding at least a little of my point. A counter-argument that only addressed the parts of your opponent;s argument you know how to rebuttal is a bad counter-argument.
Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:25 PM.
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2019-09-04, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Prophecy is nearly always vague. Durkon's prophecy from the Oracle wasn't "you will return to your homeland as a vampire", it was that he would return home posthumously. V's prophecy was to get ultimate power by saying the right 4 words at the right time for the wrong reasons... not that V would, in fact, say those words.
it might be that in all possible futures, Durkon would die. In some, his body would be returned and then his clan would rise up in anger that he was exiled and died away from home, bringing death and destruction.
I don't think that the prophecies given have made the OOTS world graven in stone. And no prophecies that I've ever read in literature have been anything but muddled. A not-uncommon reaction to prophecy is for the bad guy to say "well, if I had won, they would have said I fulfilled prophecy"
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2019-09-04, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
The Oracle has demonstrated fairly specific knowledge of the future before, enough that he was able to set up the town of LMOBH a year in advance and note his forthcoming death to the minute. The Oracle isn't the vague promotions sort. If there's anything he doesn't know about the future, it's because he didn't bother to check. for instance, the answer to V's question of how shall I attain ultimate arcane power, by being ANYTHING OTHER THEN NO, states that, at the very least, there was no possible future where V didn't make the choice that gave them same, or, for that matter, made it for a good reason.
Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:31 PM.
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2019-09-04, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Roy and Durkon, he'd met before.
He mentioned Belkar's forthcoming death within seconds of meeting him. And i'm not implying he's omniscient, per say.
2. We seem to agree that the Oracle is not omniscient, or that omniscience is not a necessary assumption.
3. Having met Roy before in company of Durkon, he can have cast a minor diviniation type of magic along the lines of
"will this one visit again?"
and when the answer comes back yes he casts another minor diviniation spell
"OK, who is with him" and there you are he takes a peak at the others who will be visiting.
No omniscience is required, just good due dliligence the practical use of divination magic. (Yes, off screen but plausible).Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:33 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-04, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I don't think we do. I'm saying that, intestinal, he is omniscient and just doesn't bother to use it. "If there's anything he doesn't know about the future, it's because he didn't bother to check". And why would a minor divination spell tell him Belkar isn't gonna live to old age? And, for that matter, he clearly knows the future without his trances: He says that he blabs about it so often, he needs a spell to ensure no one can remember it.
Last edited by woweedd; 2019-09-04 at 01:35 PM.
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2019-09-04, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Which takes me back to you agreeing with my point, it seems. This ability to see into the future is a function of the effort he puts into it. It is at best "limited omniscience" and better described (IMO) as prescience that is a result of the practical application of divination magic.
Which compared to you or me, would appear (in contrast to to our limited predictive powers) to resemble omniscience.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-04 at 01:35 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-04, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I mean, sure, if that's what you're arguing. it's the weird stuff about him using "minor divination magic" and only being able to see in the trances, whereas I think he's able to see whenever he wants, provided he bothers to check. Thus, his knowledge of Belkar is "This Halfling seems like a jerk: I hope he dies soon...Oh look, he does! Neat".
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2019-09-04, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-05, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Or maybe we could take a piece of evidence from the comics
Self aware fantasy parody
Self aware allows us to explain 4th wall breaking as part of the actual meta physics of Oots
That’s why we have the whole using stories idea
That’s why we have people literally saying a spell’s name for minutes'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2019-09-05, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-05, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
As far as we can be totally sure of, the oracle's trance just designates which prophecies visitors will remember when they leave the valley.
There is a possible explanation for all the things he knows though if he does have to trance for them: He can see his own future. Which means he knows which clients will show up before they do. Which means he knows whose futures to check before they get there.
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2019-09-05, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-05, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I don't think the Oracle practices any kind of magic--when he's resurrected after being killed by Belkar he says he'll need to get his Expert level back. His divination abilities are presumably a direct gift from his god rather than anything to do with his own abilities.
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2019-09-05, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
They're explicitly a gift from Tiamat- Belkar and Haley were there to get Roy resurrected, and the Oracle told them he wasn't any kind of caster, and couldn't do it.
Then he had a pair of lizardfolk teleport in to raise him from the dead, and not Roy, because the Oracle doesn't like Roy.
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2019-09-05, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-09-05, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Huh.... that just made me realize:
So I've long maintained that the green glowy thing is less the Oracle divining the answers and more a "this will be the only thing that can pass through the memory charm" effect (possibly both, but definitely the latter). However, not physically passing through the memory charm allows for memories to be retained, as we see when the Oracle dismisses Roy. However, the Oracle has to know this, since that's how he relies on his continued life; the cleric and wizard need to teleport in and out to remember the next appointment.
So, did the Oracle really make a mistake, or did he just want to make it seem like he did?Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-09-05, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Fourth wall breaks aren't consistent powers characters can recall upon whenever they want, otherwise Haley could at any time take whatever item she had previously from another strip, which would be an extremely powerful ability, and there's no reason she'd only do that once. Ultimately the Oracle reading future books was mostly just a joke. If Tiamat can literally grant an ability to recall any information from anywhere, she'd be rulling the pantheon at this point, and considering how Thor was able to remember every single one of his worshippers, it's reasonable to say Tiamat would easily be aware of everything that will ever happen. Something she is not, cause we've seen her show surprise before.
Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:31 PM.
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2019-09-05, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-09-05, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Again, none of their actions seem to indicate that of all knowing gods. And their prophetic abilities aren't nearly as potent as the Oracle's, arguably excluding Odin if he wasn't starved from the previous worlds. Tiamat literally gambled a third of her black dragons, and it's not really a gamble if you know it's going to pay off in the end, something she clearly doesn't.
Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 12:45 PM.
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2019-09-05, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2019-09-05, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
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2019-09-05, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I think you're replying to the wrong person? I never said he was lazy, I just straight up think he doesn't know everything, and couldn't even if he wanted to
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2019-09-05, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-09-05, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Because magic has a very specific meaning in D&D, and it comes in the form of spells cast by clerics, druids, wizards, bards, sorcerers etc. Anything else is not magic even if it looks like it--for example, if a creature has the ability to cast something like a spell but hasn't got a spell-casting class, it will be described as having a "spell-like ability" rather than having a spell. That's my understanding of it, at any rate.
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2019-09-05, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
Supernatural abilities can be suppressed by anti magic effects
I think you mean extraordinary abils'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2019-09-05, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
I hate internet arguments.
Suppose we were having a discussion about how X-wings turn in space.
First, someone points out that an airplane only “banks” in at atmosphere to use aerodynamics to change direction. It’s silly for X-wings to “bank” in space.
Someone else will argue that an airplane can’t possibly “bank” anywhere, because banking is defined in the dictionary as making deposit or credit transactions at a financial institution, and an airplane can’t do that. If we all just read the dictionary, we would understand how stupid we sound.
And then a third person will insist that with advances in AI, there’s no reason an X-wing can’t be autonomous being with the legal right to make financial transactions.
And someone will explain that these advances in AI explain why an X-wings banks in turns.Last edited by Dion; 2019-09-05 at 02:53 PM.
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2019-09-05, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?
But yeah, if Tiamat can see any moment in time, there's no reason why she would be gambling the lives of a third of her black dragons. Reminder that she didn't even knew about V's deal, something that an all knowing entity would for sure be aware of, especially when it pertains to so many of her most powerful servants being killed off. Also, the fiend has to make a promise for her that they'd kill 5 metallic dragons for each ones lost, which implies that this is a thing that isa beyond her knowledge.
Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-05 at 02:56 PM.