'Fixing' polymorph and Druid wildshape

[Tanarii]

Last night at one of my FLGS, after sessions were winding up, a group of folks from a few AL tables and my campaign got into a discussion about how OP Druid Wild shape and Polymorph are, primarily due to the huge amount of temp hps.

Any ideas on how to 'fix' the huge amounts of excessive temp hit points issue with polymorph and Druid wild shape?

A few ideas bandied around yesterday, none of which seem ideal. You'd need to find a different way to control the transformation back.

- just eliminate them completely.
- get thp to bring you up to the creatures hps, if yours are lower when you're transformed.
- alternately, heal some amount when you transform

This got me thinking, so now I'm posting, looking for theory crafting and forum discussion on the idea.

And of course the inevitable disagreement saying that they aren't OP and don't need to be 'fixed'. I don't have any actual proof they are OP, just conventional wisdom / almost everyone seeming to agree they are, on and offline, and recognize the hive-mind agreeing is not the strongest of arguments.

[Benny89]

Last night at one of my FLGS, after sessions were winding up, a group of folks from a few AL tables and my campaign got into a discussion about how OP Druid Wild shape and Polymorph are, primarily due to the huge amount of temp hps.

Any ideas on how to 'fix' the huge amounts of excessive temp hit points issue with polymorph and Druid wild shape?

A few ideas bandied around yesterday, none of which seem ideal. You'd need to find a different way to control the transformation back.

- just eliminate them completely.
- get thp to bring you up to the creatures hps, if yours are lower when you're transformed.
- alternately, heal some amount when you transform

This got me thinking, so now I'm posting, looking for theory crafting and forum discussion on the idea.

And of course the inevitable disagreement saying that they aren't OP and don't need to be 'fixed'. I don't have any actual proof they are OP, just conventional wisdom / almost everyone seeming to agree they are, on and offline, and recognize the hive-mind agreeing is not the strongest of arguments.

They are strong but what is OP about them? They are as strong as Aura of Protection and Divine Smites, as strong as Magic Secrets, as strong as Conjuration builds, as strong as Wish + Sim combo etc.

So what exactly is OP about Wild Shapes? Sure they gives extra HP, but they have low dmg, low AC and can't cast spells till late-levels.

And why Polymorph is OP for Druid only? It's a very strong spell for any caster and with a little bit of creative thinking- it can be super strong.

[Dalebert]

I'm not a big fan of it either. I like the idea of shapeshifting being about versatility and utility of the forms rather than str8 toughness. That said, it seems like the weakened beasts a lot in this edition. You might get a movement or an extra sense and some okay attacks from a beast form, but as is, one of the primary benefits is the toughness from the hp. It's also a limiting factor on how long you can stay in that form. As was already said, they also tend to bleed away very quickly due to low AC which is a pretty big balancing factor.

I'm kind of empathizing with you but also suggesting that you tread lightly here. It's potentially a huge boat-rocker in terms of balance.

[Tanarii]

I'm kind of empathizing with you but also suggesting that you tread lightly here. It's potentially a huge boat-rocker in terms of balance.

Indeed, that's why I was interested to see what others thought.

Consider it a "if we were to think about redesigning Polymoph and Wild Shape for 6e" kinda thread.

And why Polymorph is OP for Druid only? It's a very strong spell for any caster and with a little bit of creative thinking- it can be super strong.

I wasn't intending to link polymorph to Druids only. It's just that their ability works in a similar fashion.