Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I know That Argument is starting up again, and there's no possible way to avoid it, but can we at least try to get it over with in less than 5 pages, this time?

Here, I'll even lay out some flash cards:
DB is corrupt and biased, ki=chi=magic, Super manga, New 52, amalgam, math, Toriyama in an interview, infinite pages, Martian Manhunter, tons of TNT, travel speed/combat speed, comedy physics.

We didn't start the fire,
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning

[Lemmy]

Well... As dumb, illogical and clearly biased as Goku x Supes is... Ben10 x GL is arguably even dumber, more illogical and more obviously biased.

[HolyDraconus]

Well... As dumb, illogical and clearly biased as Goku x Supes is... Ben10 x GL is arguably even dumber, more illogical and more obviously biased.

As an anime fan, I couldn't agree more. Like, when Word of God is dismissed as not applicable then you HAVE to be making crap up.

[Traab]

Well... As dumb, illogical and clearly biased as Goku x Supes is... Ben10 x GL is arguably even dumber, more illogical and more obviously biased.

Yeah but they dont have three generations of fan angst revolving around their favorite being the utter champion of everything who always wins in the end. Lets face it, superman and goku are flagship characters. They are, wrongly perhaps, but even so, considered the first and primary example of their genre. Everyone involved with either anime or comics knows those names, and they have that multi generational mystique about them that causes their fans to go "Nuh UHHH! My guy wins!" Because thats how pretty much both comics go. Goku gets stronger and wins, superman gets stronger and wins. There are exceptions to this oversimplification, but in the end thats how they both boil down. There is literally no point in arguing over this as nobody is going to go, "Huh, you got me there. Ok, your guy wins."

I did enjoy the JustARobot youtuber who did his best to write a comprehensive matchup between every version of both characters to see who wins. Its a freaking 4 part series where he basically says, "Ok this version of superman has feats to this level, this version of goku cant match it, so lets go to the next version till he does, then we bring the next version of superman in till he outpaces that goku" It made for interesting back and forth as there were times when one version would outlast like 3-4 steadily more powerful versions of the other and then the reverse happens. But even that was full of arguments on both sides as fans refuse to accept their favorite could have lost. It didnt help that as we got more abstract and into multiverse destroying levels things got very squirrely because how exactly do you compare two people who can destroy all of reality to find out who destroys all of reality HARDER than the other?

[Lemmy]

Goku gets stronger and wins, superman gets stronger and wins. There are exceptions to this oversimplification, but in the end thats how they both boil down.

Well... The same can be said of any action series protagonist, really... But that doesn't mean Jackie Chan could beat Goku.

I did enjoy the JustARobot youtuber who did his best to write a comprehensive matchup between every version of both characters to see who wins. Its a freaking 4 part series where he basically says, "Ok this version of superman has feats to this level, this version of goku cant match it, so lets go to the next version till he does, then we bring the next version of superman in till he outpaces that goku" It made for interesting back and forth as there were times when one version would outlast like 3-4 steadily more powerful versions of the other and then the reverse happens. But even that was full of arguments on both sides as fans refuse to accept their favorite could have lost. It didnt help that as we got more abstract and into multiverse destroying levels things got very squirrely because how exactly do you compare two people who can destroy all of reality to find out who destroys all of reality HARDER than the other?

My grip was never with the result (although I do disagree with it), but with the analysis. I have said multiple times in this series of threads that it's conceivable that Superman could beat Goku, but that DB simply didn't make a good argument for it. The first video's analysis was lazy, shady and biased the second one is downright juvenile and petty ("Nuh-uh! Superman has INFINITY STRENGTH!"), it literally ignores all of Superman's history and defined traits.

[Traab]

Well... The same can be said of any action series protagonist, really... But that doesn't mean Jackie Chan could beat Goku.


My grip was never with the result (although I do disagree with it), but with the analysis. I have said multiple times in this series of threads that it's conceivable that Superman could beat Goku, but that DB simply didn't make a good argument for it. The first video's analysis was lazy, shady and biased the second one is downright juvenile and petty ("Nuh-uh! Superman has INFINITY STRENGTH!"), it literally ignores all of Superman's history and defined traits.

Thats true, but jackie chan has never blown up all of reality. See thats the rest of the problem. Both goku and superman have rocks fall, everyone dies feats where everything either is, or would have been obliterated. The only reason goku isnt listed as infinitely strong is he keeps running into people more powerful than his current best showing he needs to get stronger/faster/more skilled in order to surpass his current max. How do you make a rational judgement when both characters ultimate feats are "All of reality explodes"? Its easy when dealing with any character below multiverse destroying levels because you actually CAN make rational judgement on relative strength and durability. But when both start reaching levels of "Can destroy everything, survived everything being destroyed" All you get are ??????? results.

[Reddish Mage]

Well... As dumb, illogical and clearly biased as Goku x Supes is... Ben10 x GL is arguably even dumber, more illogical and more obviously biased.

As an anime fan, I couldn't agree more. Like, when Word of God is dismissed as not applicable then you HAVE to be making crap up.

What does anime have to do with it...unless you mean to mention that “illogical and biased” is the defining trait of how to treat an anime protagonist inevitable OP growth and win streak.

Yeah but they dont have three generations of fan angst revolving around their favorite being the utter champion of everything who always wins in the end. Lets face it, superman and goku are flagship characters. They are, wrongly perhaps, but even so, considered the first and primary example of their genre. Everyone involved with either anime or comics knows those names, and they have that multi generational mystique about them that causes their fans to go "Nuh UHHH! My guy wins!" Because thats how pretty much both comics go. Goku gets stronger and wins, superman gets stronger and wins. There are exceptions to this oversimplification, but in the end thats how they both boil down. There is literally no point in arguing over this as nobody is going to go, "Huh, you got me there. Ok, your guy wins."

You bring up a good point but that doesn’t explain why these two matches are so controversial. Superman and Green Lantern won. Both times winning resulted in the internet erupting with disapproval.

Of course, we don’t know what would have happened had DC’s champions lost but you suggest it would be orders of magnitude worse.

I did enjoy the JustARobot youtuber who did his best to write a comprehensive matchup between every version of both characters to see who wins. Its a freaking 4 part series where he basically says, "Ok this version of superman has feats to this level, this version of goku cant match it, so lets go to the next version till he does, then we bring the next version of superman in till he outpaces that goku" It made for interesting back and forth as there were times when one version would outlast like 3-4 steadily more powerful versions of the other and then the reverse happens. But even that was full of arguments on both sides as fans refuse to accept their favorite could have lost. It didnt help that as we got more abstract and into multiverse destroying levels things got very squirrely because how exactly do you compare two people who can destroy all of reality to find out who destroys all of reality HARDER than the other?

I thought JustARobot did a good job with the multidimensional comparisons, but you should recall “stronger” gets very weird by the point we are dealing with characters that can destroy cosmic objects with their hands, survive the inside of a Star or a black hole, tank a supernova, and essentially do the impossible over and over again in dozens of different ways.

Also, there was Goku

Death Battle is in the business of telling stories about characters with powers that simply break the laws of physics generally to the point that these laws become incoherent. Whatever rules you want to make about how to compare powers on that level, Realize these rules have all of the rationality of a five-year-old making things up on the playground.

Well... The same can be said of any action series protagonist, really... But that doesn't mean Jackie Chan could beat Goku.

I have said multiple times in this series of threads that it's conceivable that Superman could beat Goku, but that DB simply didn't make a good argument for it. The first video's analysis was lazy, shady and biased the second one is downright juvenile and petty ("Nuh-uh! Superman has INFINITY STRENGTH!"), it literally ignores all of Superman's history and defined traits.

Actually Superman doesn’t get stronger and win. It’s rare that Superman has to train at anything and he doesn’t need a daily exercise routine. He doesn’t decay with age. Superman is strength personified. What happens in many of his fights is he simply gets more motivated or brings out what was already there.

[Forum Explorer]

Thats true, but jackie chan has never blown up all of reality. See thats the rest of the problem. Both goku and superman have rocks fall, everyone dies feats where everything either is, or would have been obliterated. The only reason goku isnt listed as infinitely strong is he keeps running into people more powerful than his current best showing he needs to get stronger/faster/more skilled in order to surpass his current max. How do you make a rational judgement when both characters ultimate feats are "All of reality explodes"? Its easy when dealing with any character below multiverse destroying levels because you actually CAN make rational judgement on relative strength and durability. But when both start reaching levels of "Can destroy everything, survived everything being destroyed" All you get are ??????? results.

Agreed. I mean, moving away from Goku and Superman, you get characters like Chara and Asriel. Chara literally destroys the universe with a single attack, and Asriel's stats are infinity attack and defense. So how do you rationally determine is they could beat an opponent or not.

Actually Superman doesn’t get stronger and win. It’s rare that Superman has to train at anything and he doesn’t need a daily exercise routine. He doesn’t decay with age. Superman is strength personified. What happens in many of his fights is he simply gets more motivated or brings out what was already there.

Wasn't that the rational behind Superman winning the first match?

[Lord Raziere]

Agreed. I mean, moving away from Goku and Superman, you get characters like Chara and Asriel. Chara literally destroys the universe with a single attack, and Asriel's stats are infinity attack and defense. So how do you rationally determine is they could beat an opponent or not.

and thats not even getting into the hax some Homestuck characters can do, like only being to suffer Heroic or Just deaths, so unless they face a villain or do something bad to merit someone coming to kill them for their crimes, they can't die at all.

or Bec Noir, who uses the Red Miles to kill the giant frogs that contain all possible versions of the universes within.

or the ridiculousness that is Doc Scratch, who knows all things someone can do before they do them unless Void aspect is involved, and has Space powers and who knows how much that can do. like I have no doubt that Doc Scratch could probably just teleport a DBZ character into a sun or similar beings into a black hole without much trouble.

and then John Egbert comes in with his retcon powers that are above time travel and decides whether he wants you to not exist at all, or whether he just wants to make sure you live a life where you never face him.

[HolyDraconus]

What does anime have to do with it...

.. I'm going to assume that you meant no harm in quoting me. I meant as a fan of anime, in the sense of the line quoted of animation, not just anime of eastern descent, that writer(s) have more interaction with their fandom, and in the exact case of ben 10 v GL, they was ignored. Which leads to the result that DB came up with.

[Traab]

You bring up a good point but that doesn’t explain why these two matches are so controversial. Superman and Green Lantern won. Both times winning resulted in the internet erupting with disapproval.

Of course, we don’t know what would have happened had DC’s champions lost but you suggest it would be orders of magnitude worse.

What I meant was, it doesnt matter who death battle proclaims is the winner, the fan rage and angst between superman and goku would be absurd and half the universe will refuse to accept the outcome. The green lantern ending was controversial, at least here, but lets face it, there isnt even a 100th as much as was done for goku and superman.

[Kitten Champion]

What I meant was, it doesnt matter who death battle proclaims is the winner, the fan rage and angst between superman and goku would be absurd and half the universe will refuse to accept the outcome. The green lantern ending was controversial, at least here, but lets face it, there isnt even a 100th as much as was done for goku and superman.

Actually, I think that's kind of the issue here, that most people are just writing off the GL v. Ben 10 fight as a kind of wet fart.

At least the sentiment from Ben 10 fans I've seen projected on YouTube, many felt going in that this Death Battle was something significant for an otherwise content-starved and niche fandom. Goku and Superman are going to continue as icons in media for the foreseeable future such that it might just be inevitable that Death Battle returns to it in a few years if they still exists. Ben 10 though? A property that's waning from general consciousness a little more with each passing year such that it's less and less likely he'll reappear for anything? That Ben 10 was underserved here becomes even more galling,

[Reddish Mage]

[in response to saying Superman doesn’t need to train, doesn’t need to get stronger, and is strength personified] Wasn't that the rational behind Superman winning the first match?

I think that was the point of the second match. Saying Superman is “strength personified” is a bit more artfully stated than that Superman is “infinity” strong, which wasn’t actually stated.

What they said very explicitly was that Goku’s has to train and strive and get stronger than his next opponent, but Superman is as strong as he needs to be and has no defined limits. That actually encapsulates something very real about these characters.

Superman stories are fairly uncommon in fact for how perfect and OP Superman is. They typically find other ways to challenge him.

That said, simply because Superman’s run has been so long and so many stories written, you can find stories where he does something else, though never to the extent that Goku goes through training and bettering himself.

This runs through all of DC. DC heroes tend to have their perfect character challenged rather more often than we have them acknowledging their flaws, training to get stronger, and overcoming their limitations by changing themselves. Those are more common in neighboring Marvel. However, I admit you will see both storylines in both comics (they do exchange writers a lot).

[Anteros]

Yeah but they dont have three generations of fan angst revolving around their favorite being the utter champion of everything who always wins in the end. Lets face it, superman and goku are flagship characters. They are, wrongly perhaps, but even so, considered the first and primary example of their genre. Everyone involved with either anime or comics knows those names, and they have that multi generational mystique about them that causes their fans to go "Nuh UHHH! My guy wins!" Because thats how pretty much both comics go. Goku gets stronger and wins, superman gets stronger and wins. There are exceptions to this oversimplification, but in the end thats how they both boil down. There is literally no point in arguing over this as nobody is going to go, "Huh, you got me there. Ok, your guy wins."

I did enjoy the JustARobot youtuber who did his best to write a comprehensive matchup between every version of both characters to see who wins. Its a freaking 4 part series where he basically says, "Ok this version of superman has feats to this level, this version of goku cant match it, so lets go to the next version till he does, then we bring the next version of superman in till he outpaces that goku" It made for interesting back and forth as there were times when one version would outlast like 3-4 steadily more powerful versions of the other and then the reverse happens. But even that was full of arguments on both sides as fans refuse to accept their favorite could have lost. It didnt help that as we got more abstract and into multiverse destroying levels things got very squirrely because how exactly do you compare two people who can destroy all of reality to find out who destroys all of reality HARDER than the other?

Well, there's also the fact that your average person has no idea who Ben 10 is or what he's capable of. It's just a numbers game. When your show is marketable to 1% of the audience that the other show was marketable to there's going to be less outrage if you mess it up.

[Traab]

Well, there's also the fact that your average person has no idea who Ben 10 is or what he's capable of. It's just a numbers game. When your show is marketable to 1% of the audience that the other show was marketable to there's going to be less outrage if you mess it up.

Yeah that was part of my point. Ben 10 isnt even REMOTELY as iconic as superman or goku and in addition the way the characters are designed is utterly different. With ben its less about him getting stronger to overcome his foe and more about unlocking a new form or clever strategy with one of his older ones to target a weakness. That and plus its fairly recent that his alien forms rose above street heroes in power. So again, it hasnt been as firmly entrenched in the fanboy mind that ben 10 is supposed to be this unstoppable juggernaut of limitless power as it is for goku or superman. Gokus most basic characterization or description is "Absurdly powerful being who fights even more absurdly powerful beings and grows strong enough to defeat them." Whereas superman is "Absurdly powerful being who stops holding back so much in order to beat what we thought were absurdly more powerful beings." So anyone claiming they lose is attacking the most basic core concept of that character. You might as well proclaim batman is a moron who couldnt prepare for lunch, its going to be rejected as utter nonsense. Of course batman is the king of prep, its what he DOES! Same for goku or superman, of course they are going to win the fight, ITS WHAT THEY DO!

[Lemmy]

That's a bit inaccurate... Superman is the paragon of strength in the sense that 99% of the time he's the strongest guy around. But he's never presented as the strongest being in the universe. Plenty of times he fights enemies who are just as powerful as him or even MORE powerful... And he usually wins by coming up with a clever strategy and/or getting help from another character (usually a superhero or scientist). Sometimes he does barely defeat the opponent by giving his all in a dramatic burst of shonen motivation ("I can't lose! I have to protect my family/friends/world!").

And the next time the villain shows up, he's just as much of a threat to Superman.

Narratively, if Freeza invades DC-Earth, Superman will just barely defeat him... Usually through clever tactics or with aid from one of his allies. When Freeza returns (and he WILL return, because comics), he's just as dangerous, even if his power is still the same.

If Darkseid invades DBZ-Earth Goku wilI become stronger than him (but only be able to awaken his latent power in a burst of shonen motivation in the most dramatic moment, either by getting a new transformation or by making one of his attacks way more powerful than it ever was). Next time Darkseid invades (which is unlikely), he's barely an incovenience (unless he found a way to greatly increase his power).

[Traab]

That's a bit inaccurate... Superman is the paragon of strength in the sense that 99% of the time he's the strongest guy around. But he's never presented as the strongest being in the universe. Plenty of times he fights enemies who are just as powerful as him or even MORE powerful... And he usually wins by coming up with a clever strategy and/or getting help from another character (usually a superhero or scientist). Sometimes he does barely defeat the opponent by giving his all in a dramatic burst of shonen motivation ("I can't lose! I have to protect my family/friends/world!").

And the next time thr villain shows up, he's just as much of a threat to Superman.

Narratively, if Freeza invades DC-Earth, Superman will just barely defeat him... Usually through clever tactics or with aid from one of his allies. Next time Freeza invades, he's just as dangerous, even if his power is still the same.

If Darkseid invades DBZ-Earth Goku wilI become stronger than him (but only be able to awaken his latent power in the most dramatic moment, either by getting a new transformation or by making one of his attacks way more powerful than it ever was). Next time Darkseid invades, he's barely an incovenience.

Nah, then he comes back gold colored and darkseid is SUUUUPER scary!

[HolyDraconus]

Nah, then he comes back gold colored and darkseid is SUUUUPER scary!

you're forgetting the part where he becomes frienemies for a short time.

[Lemmy]

Nah, then he comes back gold colored and darkseid is SUUUUPER scary!

Only on the 3rd (or 5th time, depending on whether you count non-canon material). And even then, he still isn't much of a threat, to the point where Gold Darkseid is treated as little more than a toy to be shared. (And that would fall under the purview of "unless he found a way to greatly increase his power").

But, yes... There are exceptions to the general rule.

[Z3ro]

Quick question as I'm not as up on a lot of comics, but how is Superman a potential multi-verse destroyer? I see it referenced all the time (like the discussion vs Goku), and I'm not questioning the power level, but the mechanics. Like, how would he do it? Does he use his eye beams? Does he...punch the universe into oblivion? How does that work? Or is this usually in reference to some other version of Superman with a different and broader set of powers? Just curious.

[Keltest]

Quick question as I'm not as up on a lot of comics, but how is Superman a potential multi-verse destroyer? I see it referenced all the time (like the discussion vs Goku), and I'm not questioning the power level, but the mechanics. Like, how would he do it? Does he use his eye beams? Does he...punch the universe into oblivion? How does that work? Or is this usually in reference to some other version of Superman with a different and broader set of powers? Just curious.

There was one version of Superman (well, Superboy) that got trapped in some inter-universal prison, and who kept punching the "walls of reality". That was their explanation for any retcons or inconsistencies for a while, although I think eventually they gave up on that and re-wrote the universe again.

Anyway, Superman does it the same way Goku does it, which is to say that he hits stuff and then characters exclaim that there was enough power to destroy a/several universes, and we never see anything beyond that because obviously theyre not literally going to have them tear apart the universe that theyre living in intentionally.

[Traab]

There was one version of Superman (well, Superboy) that got trapped in some inter-universal prison, and who kept punching the "walls of reality". That was their explanation for any retcons or inconsistencies for a while, although I think eventually they gave up on that and re-wrote the universe again.

Anyway, Superman does it the same way Goku does it, which is to say that he hits stuff and then characters exclaim that there was enough power to destroy a/several universes, and we never see anything beyond that because obviously theyre not literally going to have them tear apart the universe that theyre living in intentionally.

Also there are versions of superman like cosmic armor superman who actually pull off feats like that though arguments abound about what does and does not count as superman. Though I think cosmic armor superdude is another where most of his feats are transitive property ones. "He tanked hits from a guy who can destroy all of reality! That means he has higher durability than the entire multiverse combined!" That sort of thing.

[Z3ro]

Anyway, Superman does it the same way Goku does it, which is to say that he hits stuff and then characters exclaim that there was enough power to destroy a/several universes, and we never see anything beyond that because obviously theyre not literally going to have them tear apart the universe that theyre living in intentionally.

I know even less about Goku than Superman, but I still don't get the mechanics. So their power has the potential to destroy the universe by punching it? Like, what would they punch? How would punching one thing destroy everything else? While, say, punching a planet and destroying it is farcical, at least there's a logic there. I just can't wrap my head around this.

[Traab]

I know even less about Goku than Superman, but I still don't get the mechanics. So their power has the potential to destroy the universe by punching it? Like, what would they punch? How would punching one thing destroy everything else? While, say, punching a planet and destroying it is farcical, at least there's a logic there. I just can't wrap my head around this.

I think with goku its the shockwaves of his punches connecting with his opponents punches were tearing apart the universe or some such thing. No it doesnt make sense, but thats how the power level thing works. They say these things, we are supposed to nod our heads, and just accept that yes, thats the truth, he is so powerful just his fighting can destroy the universe.

[Lord Raziere]

I think with goku its the shockwaves of his punches connecting with his opponents punches were tearing apart the universe or some such thing. No it doesnt make sense, but thats how the power level thing works. They say these things, we are supposed to nod our heads, and just accept that yes, thats the truth, he is so powerful just his fighting can destroy the universe.

pretty much.

though once Energy in your body > entire universe, your pretty much already a low-level reality warper, because matter/energy are equal and all the matter in the unvierse adds up to a lot to destroy in a single blow, and you'd have to have more energy than all that both solid and energy wise, and your fist would have to be harder than all the combined matter in the universe as well to pull that off, so it would mean you've somehow created energy and matter from nowhere, because your literally a duplicate of all the energy that has ever existed plus more, thus being a universe buster inherently violates law of conservation of energy, because you can't have enough energy to destroy the universe, you'd have to harness more energy than actually exists.

thus they are reality warping more energy into existence by even having enough energy to do this. so....Superman and Goku might just be punch-based reality warpers.

[Z3ro]

pretty much.

though once Energy in your body > entire universe, your pretty much already a low-level reality warper, because matter/energy are equal and all the matter in the unvierse adds up to a lot to destroy in a single blow, and you'd have to have more energy than all that both solid and energy wise, and your fist would have to be harder than all the combined matter in the universe as well to pull that off, so it would mean you've somehow created energy and matter from nowhere, because your literally a duplicate of all the energy that has ever existed plus more, thus being a universe buster inherently violates law of conservation of energy, because you can't have enough energy to destroy the universe, you'd have to harness more energy than actually exists.

thus they are reality warping more energy into existence by even having enough energy to do this. so....Superman and Goku might just be punch-based reality warpers.

Yeah,but like, how? Does that punch that obliterates reality release all that energy? How does it propagate; like a gravity wave? Is there a speed of light delay? Or is this pretty much just based in no relateable logic and might as well be magic?

I use the example of punching a planet for example: punching a planet to pieces can't really happen as the energy can't be that concentrated, but at least the logic holds. I can punch a rock to pieces, a planet is a big rock, so I can punch it to pieces. With the universe I can't follow any logic; is it just magic?

[Lemmy]

You know how Lobo does a bunch of impossible stuff just because it's cool/funny? Well... Goku/Superman-scale powers and feats are part of what Lobo is meant to be a parody of.

[Rynjin]

Yeah,but like, how? Does that punch that obliterates reality release all that energy? How does it propagate; like a gravity wave? Is there a speed of light delay? Or is this pretty much just based in no relateable logic and might as well be magic?

I use the example of punching a planet for example: punching a planet to pieces can't really happen as the energy can't be that concentrated, but at least the logic holds. I can punch a rock to pieces, a planet is a big rock, so I can punch it to pieces. With the universe I can't follow any logic; is it just magic?

Seemingly it was like a gravity wave of some kind, just waves of force radiating from the center point (the clash of two gods). The effects were only felt in the "immediate vicinity" directly (the Earth and surrounding space), but the energy released could be sensed from halfway across the galaxy at the least just from the few seconds it was active.

Ki is basically just magic (though magic does exist as a separate entity in Dragon Ball's universe), so it doesn't really need a solid explanation, just the vague idea that the clash creates a shockwave of pure force that obliterates everything in its path, and each successive clash in the same area feeds all the previous ones.

What might be interesting to note is that I don't believe anybody ever punches a planet to destroy it in Dragon Ball, it's always a ki attack of some kind. Frieza uses a super dense ki blast to sink to the planet's core and blow it up from the inside, etc.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah,but like, how? Does that punch that obliterates reality release all that energy? How does it propagate; like a gravity wave? Is there a speed of light delay? Or is this pretty much just based in no relateable logic and might as well be magic?

I use the example of punching a planet for example: punching a planet to pieces can't really happen as the energy can't be that concentrated, but at least the logic holds. I can punch a rock to pieces, a planet is a big rock, so I can punch it to pieces. With the universe I can't follow any logic; is it just magic?

Both seem to just be a big wave that travels outwards.

whether or not the fabric of space itself has enough solidity to be destructible at all is a question I think science if it has answered has probably said "no it doesn't" but I might be wrong, but in their universes its clear its thought that their punch-waves can somehow break the fabric of space and time like glass or something at high enough levels. ki users in DBS do sometimes break the fabric of space into a rift/portal thing that makes weird stuff happen at high levels, it has happened three times, twice in super and once in during Buu saga to get out of the time chamber.

[Z3ro]

You know how Lobo does a bunch of impossible stuff just because it's cool/funny? Well... Goku/Superman-scale powers and feats are part of what Lobo is meant to be a parody.

Ok, now this I understand. This makes so much more sense.