Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Lemmy]

(...) ki users in DBS do sometimes break the fabric of space into a rift/portal thing that makes weird stuff happen at high levels, it has happened three times, twice in super and once in during Buu saga to get out of the time chamber.

In DBS Goku also somehow overpowered an enemy's Time Stop power... And Gogeta and Brolly break reality in the latest movie.

Breaking reality though brute force is just something that happens...

[Reddish Mage]

Anyway, Superman does it the same way Goku does it, which is to say that he hits stuff and then characters exclaim that there was enough power to destroy a/several universes, and we never see anything beyond that because obviously theyre not literally going to have them tear apart the universe that theyre living in intentionally.

You know how Lobo does a bunch of impossible stuff just because it's cool/funny? Well... Goku/Superman-scale powers and feats are part of what Lobo is meant to be a parody of.

Both seem to just be a big wave that travels outwards.

All this comparison of a 90's anime character to the first superhero as if its all the same (yet uniquely parallel on the too of them) seems very odd.

Superman is a completely different model of being a superhero than Goku is. To the extent Goku is a superhero its from grafting Superman onto a model that is very Japanese and also very peculiar too Goku.

Superheroes do a lot of weird impossible things with their reality. The Hulk clapping his hands for a sonic attack, pounding the ground causing it to ripple like a wave, or the way he jumps high and lands, are all very obviously impossible feats.

GL does some really reality-breaking feats on a universe-scale that they bring up and I'm not sure why it just goes unacknowledged here, although it seems few here want to see if there is actual support for the narrative that GL actually could beat an Alien X.

The Flash is actually full of these reality breaking things to the point that these comics would be a metaphysical exploration of the concept of superhero breaking reality...if comics were serious enough to be philosophical.

By the way, you can break space-time, make the fundamental forces of physics do weird things (or combine, or change them up), and other loopy things in theoretical physics, but these models get fairly obscure fast...so they're so not relevant to a superhero smack down. If you want to discuss black holes, consider the behavior of exotic particles, speculate on the moments before the big bang, and want people to break that down for you without the pesky mathematics, there's a neighboring forum for that.

This thread is dedicated to thinking about who would beat who in a fight, why they would win. Although, lately, some of you have indicated you think its about picking a side and coming up with whatever means you can to push your candidate to win rather than actually care to learn about about these characters and how they work.

Yeah that was part of my point. Ben 10 isnt even REMOTELY as iconic as superman or goku and in addition the way the characters are designed is utterly different. With ben its less about him getting stronger to overcome his foe and more about unlocking a new form or clever strategy with one of his older ones to target a weakness. That and plus its fairly recent that his alien forms rose above street heroes in power. So again, it hasnt been as firmly entrenched in the fanboy mind that ben 10 is supposed to be this unstoppable juggernaut of limitless power as it is for goku or superman.

Same for goku or superman, of course they are going to win the fight, ITS WHAT THEY DO!

The idea that the internet would criticize a loss by Superman or GL all the more so than Ben 10 is possible for all I know, but it's not something we've seen. Batman has lost more fights than he has won in DB, but we haven't had to much criticisms of those fights, despite the fact that Batman has beaten the entire Justice League, Darkseid and all that. People just shrugged and moved on.

I get that Alien X is something like an omnipotent god-like entity that can and has destroyed and recreated the universe. If GL can beat an entity like that...he clearly doesn't do that sort of thing commonly.

Similarly Superman doesn't often fight on the cosmic level we've seen DB embrace, and the canon of Superman stories is impossibly vast with a lot of resets and contradictory suggestions of what Superman's limit is. Sometimes it seems he can get hurt by something like lightning. sometimes it seems like his strength maxes out at a certain point far below the cosmic scale, and other times they show him sneezing and destroying a galaxy or daisy chaining planets (I'm pretty sure those particular times weren't for keeps though).

I think its easy to explain the internet erupted at certain battles because the critics simply sincerely believe their answer is that obvious, rather than its one sides rabbid fanbase or the other.

[Rater202]

I know even less about Goku than Superman, but I still don't get the mechanics. So their power has the potential to destroy the universe by punching it? Like, what would they punch? How would punching one thing destroy everything else? While, say, punching a planet and destroying it is farcical, at least there's a logic there. I just can't wrap my head around this.

So, a thing that gets explicitly stated in Dragon Ball several times but is consistently ignored in discussions like this is that Ki users can, with practice, control their energy so that it doesn't expand past a certain area.

This how, for example, Vegeta can launch a blast of energy that's is several(thousand at this point) times that which is needed to destroy the earth, with people freaking out because he's aiming straight down, and only hurt the person he's aiming for--he keeps the energy inside the beam and then curves it so that it flies up to empty space after hitting.

This means that Goku totally could destroy the universe if he wanted to at this point since he's exponentially past the point where you can tear holes in space-time by screaming. He just doesn't want to and holds his universe breaking power into a limited degree.

This also means that what would normally be a planet-sized explosion can be concentrated down to an area that's maybe a few dozen square feet(which actually, logically, would make it exponentially stronger, not weaker.)

In the case of Goku almost punishing the universe apart, Goku was fighting Lord Beerus, a literal God whose job is to judge planets and destroy the ones that don't measure up--Beerus chooses to judge planets based on the quality of their food, how hospitable thay are, and if their warriors can give him a good fight.

During the fight, Goku and Beerus start matching punches--punching at the same time so that their fists meet.

The amount of energy in their respective punches caused shockwaves that spread throughout the universe and picked up momentum as it went--nearby planets merely got shook to hell, but planets on the far end of the universe disintegrated.

Elder Kai flat out says that each shockwave is stronger than the last and that there was a serious risk of them shaking the universe apart if they kept fighting that way.

[Reddish Mage]

Paragraph 1 So, a thing that gets explicitly stated in Dragon Ball several times but is consistently ignored in discussions like this is that Ki users can, with practice, control their energy so that it doesn't expand past a certain area.

Paragraph 2 This how, for example, Vegeta can launch a blast of energy that's is several(thousand at this point) times that which is needed to destroy the earth, with people freaking out because he's aiming straight down, and only hurt the person he's aiming for--he keeps the energy inside the beam and then curves it so that it flies up to empty space after hitting.

Paragraph 3 Conclusion This means that Goku totally could destroy the universe if he wanted to at this point since he's exponentially past the point where you can tear holes in space-time by screaming. He just doesn't want to and holds his universe breaking power into a limited degree.

I would like to point out for the innocent newcomer that Rater often derives powers of the character using "logic" like the above.

Rater is correct Ki users can control their energy (paragraph 1) and cause that energy (occasionally explicitly a planet busting burst) to do things like curve (paragraph 2).

However, I'm not sure what that is supposed to have to do with paragraph 3, which claims Goku could totally destroy the entire universe. Rater explain Goku's [ki abilities] are exponentially past the level of a character that can tear a hole in reality. Even so, I'm not sure what the third paragraph, which mentions the new ability of reality tearing we see in the Buu-saga and the Goku Black saga, even has to do with the first two, but I surmise there's suppose to be something about the way Ki really works.

At best, you can prove Goku should be able to make a really, really big tear of some undeterminable size from the fact that he is much more powerful than Buu and Gotenks. The idea that since Buu could make small ones that Goku can make a universe size one is akin to saying because a nuke is exponentially stronger bomb than a conventional one, that a single nuke can be made to blow up the universe.

The amount of energy in their respective punches caused shockwaves that spread throughout the universe and picked up momentum as it went--nearby planets merely got shook to hell, but planets on the far end of the universe disintegrated.

Elder Kai flat out says that each shockwave is stronger than the last and that there was a serious risk of them shaking the universe apart if they kept fighting that way.

Note it required Goku fighting Beerus, whose said to still be stronger than Goku. The two of them had to have their punches and energy blasts meet for the shockwaves to work...and the shockwaves somehow grew in power the farther they went and all they actually did was destroy a few of the most distant planets in the entire universe.

Again, this doesn't prove Goku can destroy the universe on his own. It proves that Goku + Beerus together can destroy planets on the edge of the universe and cause Elder Ki the concern that eventually the universe will be destroy. Elder Kai initially said after three shockwaves the universe would be destroyed. The three shockwaves actually did happen but the universe held together.

Note in greater DB media claims the combined energies of two warriors opposing one another will combine and become stronger than what either can produce themselves.

This is actually proof that Goku can't destroy the universe himself. Goku requires Beerus' participation to even get to the point of producing these universe-wide shockwaves, and these shockwaves quite simply don't destroy the universe.

[Anteros]

I would like to point out for the innocent newcomer that Rater often derives powers of the character using "logic" like the above.

Rater is correct Ki users can control their energy (paragraph 1) and cause that energy (occasionally explicitly a planet busting burst) to do things like curve (paragraph 2).

However, I'm not sure what that is supposed to have to do with paragraph 3, which claims Goku could totally destroy the entire universe. Rater explain Goku's [ki abilities] are exponentially past the level of a character that can tear a hole in reality. Even so, I'm not sure what the third paragraph, which mentions the new ability of reality tearing we see in the Buu-saga and the Goku Black saga, even has to do with the first two, but I surmise there's suppose to be something about the way Ki really works.

At best, you can prove Goku should be able to make a really, really big tear of some undeterminable size from the fact that he is much more powerful than Buu and Gotenks. The idea that since Buu could make small ones that Goku can make a universe size one is akin to saying because a nuke is exponentially stronger bomb than a conventional one, that a single nuke can be made to blow up the universe.



Note it required Goku fighting Beerus, whose said to still be stronger than Goku. The two of them had to have their punches and energy blasts meet for the shockwaves to work...and the shockwaves somehow grew in power the farther they went and all they actually did was destroy a few of the most distant planets in the entire universe.

Again, this doesn't prove Goku can destroy the universe on his own. It proves that Goku + Beerus together can destroy planets on the edge of the universe and cause Elder Ki the concern that eventually the universe will be destroy. Elder Kai initially said after three shockwaves the universe would be destroyed. The three shockwaves actually did happen but the universe held together.

Note in greater DB media claims the combined energies of two warriors opposing one another will combine and become stronger than what either can produce themselves.

This is actually proof that Goku can't destroy the universe himself. Goku requires Beerus' participation to even get to the point of producing these universe-wide shockwaves, and these shockwaves quite simply don't destroy the universe.

Meanwhile Reddish mage regularly uses such logic as "I'll completely ignore informed abilities like the fact we're explicitly told what a character is capable of in favor of demanding proof. But only when it's the character I don't want to win." Character says Goku can destroy the universe? Nope, he needs proof for that. Character says Superman is infinity strong because he lifted something one time? Totally on board.

The whole point of the "Goku destroying the universe" scene was that Goku's power was out of control because he didn't have a handle on it yet. Not Beerus' power. Goku's. Explicitly. The whole point of the scene is that he gets control of it by the third punch and that's why it doesn't destroy anything. The only thing your argument "proved" was that you weren't paying attention.

Not to call you out, but if you're going to do it to other posters you can't get upset when someone does it to you.

We should have named this thread "Dread it, run from it, Goku vs Superman still arrives"

[Rater202]

It should also be noted that "Peak Goku," that is, Ultra Instinct Goku, is not only significantly stronger than Jiren, he blatantly dwarfs Jiren.

Jiren is stronger than his World's God of Destruction to an unknown degree.

Belmond, said God of destruction, is explicitly stronger than Beerus to an unknown degree.

So, since we're going by objective measures of power, this is one of the few times where the transitive property actually does work, so while Goku's power in most forms is lower than Beerus's own, Master ultra Instinct Goku's power dwarfs Beerus's to at least a slightly greater degree than it Dwarf's Jiren's.

So even if the problem was solely dependant on Goku's unrestricted power crashing against Beeru's own. At the time, Goku is now several times that level of power at his peak.

[Lord Raziere]

We should have named this thread "Dread it, run from it, Goku vs Superman still arrives"

Goku vs. Superman....Goku vs. Superman never changes. Fallout: New Metropolis. featuring Lex Luthor as the House stand in, various DC and DBZ technology left behind after the apocalyptic saiyan/kryptonian war, various people trying to use them and only causing things to screw up, as factions gear up to fight for control of New Metropolis. Coming probably never.

anyway I'm not hashing out another argument like this, I already know that the greatest version of Goku is only surpassed by five versions of Superman and thats good enough for me, because those other five supermen include some weird bio-armor superman that has literal narrative powers, and freaking Milkman-Man who is meta-fictionally powerful in such a way that I know that DC is just being stupidly hax for no reason. so....until we get a Goku that can stand up to the narrative level powers of Retconn and its super-milkman, why bother?

[Dragonus45]

It should also be noted that "Peak Goku," that is, Ultra Instinct Goku, is not only significantly stronger than Jiren, he blatantly dwarfs Jiren.

Jiren is stronger than his World's God of Destruction to an unknown degree.

Belmond, said God of destruction, is explicitly stronger than Beerus to an unknown degree.

So, since we're going by objective measures of power, this is one of the few times where the transitive property actually does work, so while Goku's power in most forms is lower than Beerus's own, Master ultra Instinct Goku's power dwarfs Beerus's to at least a slightly greater degree than it Dwarf's Jiren's.

So even if the problem was solely dependant on Goku's unrestricted power crashing against Beeru's own. At the time, Goku is now several times that level of power at his peak.

He wasn't "stronger" then Jiren in pure physical terms. He was just preternaturally skilled to the point that he didn't need to have more power to win. Which in DBZ terms is practically unheard of before then. When power levels were king!

[Rater202]

He wasn't "stronger" then Jiren in pure physical terms. He was just preternaturally skilled to the point that he didn't need to have more power to win. Which in DBZ terms is practically unheard of before then. When power levels were king!

No, he was both.

Part of Ultra Instinct is gaining both power and skill to adapt to an enemy and Goku's power level jumped up singificnatly not once but twice while fighting Jiren after mastering ultra instinct.

The power boost seems to be a permanent modification to his base power--Goku became noticeably stronger every time he fell out of Ultra Instinct Sign based on the comparison of power and skill across various fighters even though he lost whatever multiplier being in his Ultra Instinct Form gives him and that can't just be his sayain nature making him stronger from stress and injury because it'd been previously established that there's a hard limit to how big a raw boost that can give you and Goku's at the point where that hard limit is a negligible increase.

[Dragonus45]

No, he was both.

Part of Ultra Instinct is gaining both power and skill to adapt to an enemy and Goku's power level jumped up singificnatly not once but twice while fighting Jiren after mastering ultra instinct.

The power boost seems to be a permanent modification to his base power--Goku became noticeably stronger every time he fell out of Ultra Instinct Sign based on the comparison of power and skill across various fighters even though he lost whatever multiplier being in his Ultra Instinct Form gives him and that can't just be his sayain nature making him stronger from stress and injury because it'd been previously established that there's a hard limit to how big a raw boost that can give you and Goku's at the point where that hard limit is a negligible increase.

No, Ultra Instinct causes your body to move without thought in perfect response to the enemy. I am genuinely curious where you are getting the rest of that from.

[Rater202]

No, Ultra Instinct causes your body to move without thought in perfect response to the enemy. I am genuinely curious where you are getting the rest of that from.

1: Goku is demonstrably stronger thatn he was before after both uses of Ultra Instinct Sign, if you're actually paying attention to how powerful each individual seems relative to each other.

2: People explicitly commenting on how Goku is growing stronger and more skilled in real-time while he's in Ultra Instinct.

3: Goku's power blatantly increasing by leaps and bounds twice while fighting Jiren after mastering Ultra instinct, once in response to Jiren using his full power and again out of Anger when Jiren tried to blast the stands.

[Dragonus45]

1: Goku is demonstrably stronger thatn he was before after both uses of Ultra Instinct Sign, if you're actually paying attention to how powerful each individual seems relative to each other.

2: People explicitly commenting on how Goku is growing stronger and more skilled in real-time while he's in Ultra Instinct.

3: Goku's power blatantly increasing by leaps and bounds twice while fighting Jiren after mastering Ultra instinct, once in response to Jiren using his full power and again out of Anger when Jiren tried to blast the stands.

1. No, he is demonstrably more skilled and capable in combat.
2. They commented on him getting better with Ultra Instinct.
3. Was his power increasing? Because all I saw was him getting more and more second winds every time he started to flag a little when Jiren deliberately made him mad by aiming at the stands.

Everything we are told about Ultra Instinct is that its a technique for allowing your body to move without thought and act as the pinnacle of martial arts combat. With Goku it seemed to also come with a nifty new form. Nothing there says its a power multiplier in the same way the SSJ transformations are.

[Rater202]

1. No, he is demonstrably more skilled and capable in combat.
2. They commented on him getting better with Ultra Instinct.
3. Was his power increasing? Because all I saw was him getting more and more second winds every time he started to flag a little when Jiren deliberately made him mad by aiming at the stands.

Everything we are told about Ultra Instinct is that its a technique for allowing your body to move without thought and act as the pinnacle of martial arts combat. With Goku it seemed to also come with a nifty new form. Nothing there says its a power multiplier in the same way the SSJ transformations are.

1: No, Goku is demonstrably stronger. Goku is already one of the most skilled martial artists in the world. Merely becoming better at punching isn't going to do crap at the level of power they were operating on and again if you pay attention, there's a clear pecking order in terms of raw power and Goku's place in it changes after every use of Ultra Instinct. It's not a binary thing, he gets more skill and gets stronger. He logically must have gotten stronger because we're operating on levels where skill by itself doesn't mean crap.

2: The first time Goku accesses Ultra Instinct Omen, the peanut gallery explicitly talks about how Goku is getting faster and putting more force with each punch.

3: Jiren went from being so powerful that absolutely nothing anything anyone did against hm had any effect to being manhandled by Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku. That can only be explained by raw power. Jiren powers up and briefly get the upper hand... And a second Later Goku's power increases and he manhandled Jiren again. Jiren attacks the stands, Goku gets pissed off, his power spikes again, and he beats Jiren so badly that Jiren's raw power is reduced to a fraction of what it was at the beginning of the tournament. (As demonstrated by Frieza, Android 17, and Base form Goku actually being able to affect him with their attacks.)

edit: Double checking, when goku uses Ultra instinct Android 17 comments that there was a "vast differance" between Goku's power and jirens prior to Ultra instinct but that Goku had closed the gap.

With the punchies, it's said that they're "faster, sharper, and harder."

So yes, he is explicitly getting both more skilled and more powerful.

[Traab]

The idea that the internet would criticize a loss by Superman or GL all the more so than Ben 10 is possible for all I know, but it's not something we've seen. Batman has lost more fights than he has won in DB, but we haven't had to much criticisms of those fights, despite the fact that Batman has beaten the entire Justice League, Darkseid and all that. People just shrugged and moved on.

I get that Alien X is something like an omnipotent god-like entity that can and has destroyed and recreated the universe. If GL can beat an entity like that...he clearly doesn't do that sort of thing commonly.

Similarly Superman doesn't often fight on the cosmic level we've seen DB embrace, and the canon of Superman stories is impossibly vast with a lot of resets and contradictory suggestions of what Superman's limit is. Sometimes it seems he can get hurt by something like lightning. sometimes it seems like his strength maxes out at a certain point far below the cosmic scale, and other times they show him sneezing and destroying a galaxy or daisy chaining planets (I'm pretty sure those particular times weren't for keeps though).

I think its easy to explain the internet erupted at certain battles because the critics simply sincerely believe their answer is that obvious, rather than its one sides rabbid fanbase or the other.

Again, my point is that when batman loses, its ok because his baseline identity isnt wrapped up in winning every contest of power. So his losses in a death battle dont strike at the heart of who the character is to people. Even though we know it isnt strictly true, both goku and superman are seen as these unstoppable juggernauts of power who always win in the end because they either get faster stronger tougher, or unleash enough of their power to win the fight. If I described how I see the normal superman fight, im sure you could find all sorts of examples of when it doesnt happen and I would agree with you that it doesnt always work that way, but it feels like it for some reason. Superman gets knocked head over heels by whatever superweapon or big bad shows up. Second attack pushes him back but he resists it, third attack superman powers through and pastes the bad guy and from that point on the conclusion of the fight is no longer in doubt unless there was a second even stronger attack being held in reserve at which point the cycle repeats. As for goku, the general way its seen is, He either straight up wins, or he loses, gets stronger, comes back, and wins. Sometimes by unlocking a new power/form/boost.

With batman his identity has become lord of the prep and contingency plan. If he meets someone for the first time, nobody is that surprised if he loses. It happens fairly often, he just escapes, analyzes what happened, formulates a plan to counter his opponent, THEN stomps said opponent in round 2. In a death battle he cant do that of course, so the outrage is a lot less when he loses. I honestly think this psychological aspect is a factor in reactions to these fights.

[Devonix]

I'd say a lot of the issue comes with " Strength, Power, and Skill " Basically being used interchangably in most japanese media. Someone saying someone is Stronger, than they were before doesn't always mean that the person is talking about physical strength. And especially with how UI is described I don't see why it would grant a physical increase.

[Rater202]

I'd say a lot of the issue comes with " Strength, Power, and Skill " Basically being used interchangably in most japanese media. Someone saying someone is Stronger, than they were before doesn't always mean that the person is talking about physical strength. And especially with how UI is described I don't see why it would grant a physical increase.

In Dragon Ball, an unqualified reference to strength is almost always referring to either physical strength or the power of one's ki, depending on where we are in the timeline.

And especially with how UI is described I don't see why it would grant a physical increase.

When Goku first usies Ultra Instinct: Sign against Jiren, the universe 7 characters comment on it and Master Roshi explicitly states that every time Jiren blocks a blow, Goku's next punch is faster, sharper, and most importantly harder hitting.

Goku is at the point where the lion's share of his strength is a factor of his ki rather than his physical body. If he's punching harder it's because he has more raw power.

Speed and sharpness of the blow are a factor of him growing more skilled, but hitting harder can only mean that he's becoming more powerful in response to Jiren.

[Reddish Mage]

Character says Goku can destroy the universe? Nope, he needs proof for that. Character says Superman is infinity strong because he lifted something one time? Totally on board.

Who has said Goku can destroy the universe? As far as I know the only people saying are on the internet in this universe, not his own.

I noted that the Superman lifting a book said to have "infinite pages" is more than a statement, it was a demonstration of his power, and should count as such even if we disallow statements. However, we're several threads away from when we were thinking statements didn't matter. I've said statements matter for several threads now. If someone in canon says Goku could destroy the universe, he probably can.

I note that Buu is said to be able to destroy the universe in DBZ but its clear from the portrayal showing multiple blasts in a specific galaxy that its Buu destroying the universe slowly going planet by planet or system by system. Goku could do likewise...assuming the universe isn't so big he'd weaken of old age (Vegeta says Saiyans lose their strength beginning in their 80's). In contrast, we know the DBS Goku Black/Zamasu fusion after getting destroyed and entering the transcendent form can both encompass the entire universe and thereby destroy it quickly.

However, Goku is clearly weaker than Goku Black by himself and far weaker than the fusion. The only thing that could destroy temporarily inconvenience the fusion was the Trunks spirit bomb-type sword stroke.

Not to call you out, but if you're going to do it to other posters you can't get upset when someone does it to you.

Go right ahead, although, get my position right. I'm happy to accept Goku's statements and indicated such awhile ago.

Of course, I don't know where you get that statement from. However, we can actually see how Goku measures against the universe destroyers and compare him to them. He's weaker than characters that can destroy a universe quickly (Zamasu/Black fusion, Zen-Oh). However, he could do it in God-form by fighting a God of Destruction, although not in one attack, it is said to take three and that's a dud.

... both goku and superman are seen as these unstoppable juggernauts of power who always win in the end because they either get faster stronger tougher, or unleash enough of their power to win the fight. If I described how I see the normal superman fight, im sure you could find all sorts of examples of when it doesnt happen and I would agree with you that it doesnt always work that way, but it feels like it for some reason.

I think it feels like it only because people seem to be arguing this way for several threads and on the internet.

In the comics, Goku and Superman are nothing like each other in how they win or in fact whether they win.

The two are not strong like each other, they do not fight like each other, and their stories resolve very differently.

Specifically, Superman typically does not get stronger, and certainly not the way Goku gets stronger... through grueling training. Superman does not generally train or exercise, cannot be nicked by bullets even if he did not exercise (although he would if he stayed out of the Sun for a prolonged period of time).

Superman almost always wins against his opponent. He defeats his opponent in a decisive way. He may not be the strongest being in DC comics, but he is always strong enough to get the job done.`

Goku does train and continually gets stronger, he is stronger in the comics now than he was even at the end of even ToP. However, he actually very rarely wins against his opponent. In fact, his fighting record is pretty abysmal on a pure win/loss ratio.

Goku lost against Vegeta, he seemed to dominate Frieza but gave Frieza a last chance attack and Frieza hits himself with his own attack, Cell killed Goku, Evil Buu was destroyed but only by a spirit bomb and after Buu was weakened by being split up.

Goku lost the fight against Beerus, against Hit, against Golden Frieza, against Goku Black, and against Jiren.

Goku has actually almost never defeated a superior opponent, its a theme that's been going on ever since Z. Goku loses, but he loses in a way that leads to his opponent's defeat (Hit just walked away), and usually befriended afterwards.

If we were going by themes Goku is not an unbeatable juggernaut at all. Against a strong opponent he will almost always lose.

[Rater202]

I noted that the Superman lifting a book said to have "infinite pages" is more than a statement, it was a demonstration of his power, and should count as such even if we disallow statements.

1: We only have character statements that the book has infinite pages, there's no objective proof and every other thing said or shown about the book indicates that it does not in fact have a literal infinity of pages.

Beyond that, it's a magic book that is clearly meant to be read by human-sized individuals. The very fact that it's physically impossible to have infinite pages in a single book is kind uh.. Hard proof that conventional physics doesn't apply. The number of pages has no bearing on its weight.

In other words, there is absolutely no proof that Superman can lift infinity. The number of times he's struggled or needed help to lift things with known finite weights is likewise hard proof that he can't lift infinity.

Goku has actually almost never defeated a superior opponent

Toa Pai Pai was stronger than him when they first thought. Goku later whooped him so badly that he pulled a grenade which Goku accidentally blew him to chunks with when he tossed it back.

He only lost to Tien by a fluke--getting hit by a god-damn car seconds before Tien hit the ground in the tournament.

After losing to Tambourine the first time, Goku came back and vaporized him.

Even after drinking the Ultra Divine Water, Goku was still weaker than King Piccolo. Still killed him.

Piccolo junior was stronger. Still beat him.

Goku may have sacrificed himself to do it but he and Piccolo still defeated Raditz who was several times stronger than him.

Vegeta is questionable since everyone contributed but I'll note that Vegeta was crawling away broken and literally only survived because Goku wanted to fight him again.

Goku definitively defeated Frieza on Namek. Frieza himself considers it such.

The only reason Goku didn't utterly obliterate Fat Buu is that he was dead--they can't very well have him solve all of their problems now can they? And then they end up doing just that regardless.

Goku did not defeat Beerus, but it should be noted that Goku is canonically a more skilled martial artist than Beerus: Beerus only have very limited access to Ultra Instinct while Goku achieved it for the first time and then mastered it in less than an hour.

Rez F more or less spells out that even with his Golden Form, Frieza was a chump in comparison to Goku and Vegeta and never would have stood a chance had they taken it seriously.

Goku was going to defeat Hit. Goku was so far beyond Hit that he felt that the only way it would be a fair match was if Hit was allowed to go lethal and then forfeited the match out of spite when Beerus and Champa started bickering.

Zamasu wasn't Goku's enemy to beat, though it should be noted that he only became as dangerous as he did because Goku Black maliciously abused the power and potential of Goku's body.

Goku defeated the fused form of his alternate universe self and alternate universe Broly using merger of regular Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan 2.

At the end of the tournament... No, screw anyone, Goku beat Jiren. Jiren's spirit was broken and Goku was seconds away from ringing him out when he ran out of stamina if that had been a real fight instead of a turney Jiren would have been dead. Jiren only got back up because Frieza had to screw around instead of tossing an enemy who'd already been beaten for him out of bounds.

You will note that this is most of the major enemies in the series.

Beyond that, Goku's narrative is about fighting the best and winning anyway, even if it's by the grit of his teath. If we're arguing by narrative instead of feats, than Goku should have curb-stomped Superman in the rematch or else just barely managed to defeat him the first time.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Deja vu, I just been in this place before...

[Lemmy]

About the "can/cannot destroy the universe" thing... That comes from the collateral damage paradox in fiction... Where causing lots of destruction means you're strong, but not causing any destruction doesn't mean you weak (because it'd be inconvenient to destroy your setting every time Superman/Goku throws a punch).

So unless you are proposing that Superman can't move much faster than sound, because he doesn't burn Earth's atmosphere whenever he fights Zod, Doomsday, Darkseid or whoever (and in fact rarely does more than cause a little "Woosh")... Simply "not destroying everything around them" isn't really proof that the characters can't do it.

And yes... The book is clearly a magical book that doesn't follow the laws of physics. There's no evidence that it does in fact have infinity pages or infinity weight. Quite the contrary, actually... Since it's not occupying every corner of the universe, it clearly isn't infinity... And since it doesn't.destroy the universe with its infinity gravity, it clearly doesn't have infinity mass (is its pedestal infinitely dense too? What about the ground where that pedestal stands?)

Unless it's a magical book that doesn't follow the laws of physics, which means it's not proof of "infinity strength"... Which makes sense, since SUPERMAN IS NEVER PORTRAYED AS HAVING INFINITY STRENGTH.

(Not to mention that there are gods-know-how-many comics of Superman being beaten by opponents who are weaker, but more skilled... Including Zod and Wonder Woman).

[Keltest]

While the book itself is bad evidence, its equally bad evidence to say that because Superman couldn't move X by himself means he isn't strong enough to move that mass. Theres a reason we don't move objects by ramming them with trucks or bulldozers, for example, unless we want them to be destroyed in the process. Regardless of how much force you can apply, theres going to be a hard limit to what you can do with it without outside help simply because applying more force doesn't just increase the effects of whatever youre doing with it linearly with no side effects.

That is, in fact, Superman's major limiter 99% of the time. He can end the fight by punching somebody, but only if he's willing to turn them into a red smear in the process, so he needs to figure out some other way to solve the problem because that's an unacceptable consequence to him.

[Rater202]

While the book itself is bad evidence, its equally bad evidence to say that because Superman couldn't move X by himself means he isn't strong enough to move that mass. Theres a reason we don't move objects by ramming them with trucks or bulldozers, for example, unless we want them to be destroyed in the process. Regardless of how much force you can apply, theres going to be a hard limit to what you can do with it without outside help simply because applying more force doesn't just increase the effects of whatever youre doing with it linearly with no side effects.

That is, in fact, Superman's major limiter 99% of the time. He can end the fight by punching somebody, but only if he's willing to turn them into a red smear in the process, so he needs to figure out some other way to solve the problem because that's an unacceptable consequence to him.

Superman needed the help of three other people on his level to pull the Earth using chains.

Meaning that Superman's "lift weight," assisted by a chain, is roughly an object of 1/4 the mass and volume of the Earth.

[Lemmy]

That is, in fact, Superman's major limiter 99% of the time. He can end the fight by punching somebody, but only if he's willing to turn them into a red smear in the process, so he needs to figure out some other way to solve the problem because that's an unacceptable consequence to him.

That argument breaks down when Superman fights creatures just as powerful as him and still doesn't cause much collateral damage. Even if we assume both opponents care about not destroying their surroundings, it'd still not make sense, because without fighting them at full strength (or near that), his attacks simply wouldn't affect each other (in the same way that Mike Tyson hitting you with the strength of a little girl wouldn't hurt you just because he could potentially hit you like a truck).

Same goes for Goku, of course.

It goes back to the paradoxical nature "not causing collateral damage when fighting at full strength is not necessarily a sign that the character doesn't have the power necessary to cause said collateral damage" thing I mentioned. It's simply more convenient for writers to not destroy the planet every time their hero fights a equally powerful villain.

[Traab]

Superman needed the help of three other people on his level to pull the Earth using chains.

Meaning that Superman's "lift weight," assisted by a chain, is roughly an object of 1/4 the mass and volume of the Earth.

When he isnt bench pressing the weight of earth for three days straight. Lets hear it for consistency! Seriously, can we just stop arguing about this? Nobody has ever or will ever change their mind. Please. Im begging here. Cant we argue about one of the other fights for a change? Mewtwo is neither a mew, nor is he two. Discuss.

[Lemmy]

Superman needed the help of three other people on his level to pull the Earth using chains.

Meaning that Superman's "lift weight," assisted by a chain, is roughly an object of 1/4 the mass and volume of the Earth.

TBF, I think it's off-handedly commented somewhere that Superman did the brunt of the work.

[Forum Explorer]

Mewtwo is neither a mew, nor is he two. Discuss.

He totally is. He's a clone of Mew, and since there already is one Mew, that makes him the Two Mew.

A better question is who is in charge of balancing the Pokemon card game, cause it isn't.

[Reddish Mage]

Goku vs. Superman....Goku vs. Superman never changes. Fallout: New Metropolis. featuring Lex Luthor as the House stand in, various DC and DBZ technology left behind after the apocalyptic saiyan/kryptonian war, various people trying to use them and only causing things to screw up, as factions gear up to fight for control of New Metropolis. Coming probably never.

anyway I'm not hashing out another argument like this, I already know that the greatest version of Goku is only surpassed by five versions of Superman and thats good enough for me, because those other five supermen include some weird bio-armor superman that has literal narrative powers, and freaking Milkman-Man who is meta-fictionally powerful in such a way that I know that DC is just being stupidly hax for no reason. so....until we get a Goku that can stand up to the narrative level powers of Retconn and its super-milkman, why bother?

Fallout: New Metropolis is an awesome concept.

JustARobot started with theta state Superman, which is simply a super-strong state of canon Superman and an ability Superman has never specifically been said to lose. Superman supposedly defeated the “real” Darkseid without it. Canon Superman also defeated at least one of those five Supermen, I think actually two of them.

Superman needed the help of three other people on his level to pull the Earth using chains.

Meaning that Superman's "lift weight," assisted by a chain, is roughly an object of 1/4 the mass and volume of the Earth.

You aren’t ever going to stop these original attempts to science the comic books...are you? They don’t work.

In this case, Keltest explained how “lift[ing] weight” can’t be derived in the very post you respond to with this.

Just because Superman has help you can’t say he wasn’t strong enough to do it himself. Partly because if you take a super strong force sufficient to pull or push the Earth itself without help, but fail to distribute the weight, you would end up damaging or destroying the Earth by the application of too much force.

Lemmy also makes the point that Superman was doing most of the work, partly because he is explicitly said to be stronger than some of the other characters that help.

Finally he can move the Earth himself because he’s done it in other comics.

[Lord Raziere]

Fallout: New Metropolis is an awesome concept.

Thanks. The only problem is figuring out how there is a still a planet for New Metropolis to be on after that kind of war.

[Man on Fire]

Do you think mods would get mad if next time we make a Death Battle thread me also make separate Superman vs Goku thread and send everyone there?

[Lemmy]

Do you think mods would get mad if next time we make a Death Battle thread me also make separate Superman vs Goku thread and send everyone there?

Well... If I ever feel like discussing GxS, I sure as hell won't bother going to another thread, seeing as it's pertinent to Death Battle.

Besides, nowadays, most of the mentions of that match are about how they relate to other matches.